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New Oppo BDP93 Blu-ray Player - Page 8  

post #211 of 1323
I didn't find R-G's level of detail unusual for these pages.
post #212 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

I didn't find R-G's level of detail unusual for these pages.

I agree. Especially regarding smooth fast forward and reverse.

Both my PS3 and my Panasonic BD30 do FF and REV smoothly at any speed. If I plunked down $500 on the supposed no-compromise Blu-ray player around, only to see FF downgraded to a slideshow of still frames, I'd be disappointed.

And, it makes much more sense to ask for features now that the player is still not finalised. Then the Oppo fifth column can relay those requests to the company and possibly implementing while there's still time to tweak things.
post #213 of 1323
The BDP-95 will have the smooth FF and RR feature.
MSRP: $2799
post #214 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

I think the "wow"s are related to the level of detail involved in the question as it relates to a product about which we know very little and which is still months away from release, not about the underlying question itself.

Yeah, maybe. But I think there might also be a little "wowage" over the significance of FF/REW (or more specifically, over the appearance of FF/REW) implied by the questions. I've no doubt that it's a big deal for the OP, as he says, but for many, we just want to quickly, easily navigate to where we're going and we're not really watching the movie or trying to read the subtitles as they fly by at more than 2x speed.
post #215 of 1323
Dismissing a feature requested for an Oppo player because it's too niche is like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500.
post #216 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

The BDP-95 will have the smooth FF and RR feature.
MSRP: $2799


Yer kidding, right?
post #217 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

I didn't find R-G's level of detail unusual for these pages.

The manner in which fast forward and rewind works is a valid question for a player, but it's not a question you should expect to have answered months before the player is shipped. We are not talking about a feature that is part of a standard spec list and a player that is still in development. We have nothing at this point but a few pictures and an interview with one of OPPO's guys to tell us what the player does, for crying out loud. The answer to this specific question won't appear on OPPO's site even when they player is available, so the only way to know is for someone to use the player and find out. From that standpoint, the level of detail is out-of-place in a thread about a player that is still largely under wraps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

Dismissing a feature requested for an Oppo player because it's too niche is like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500.

I'm not dismissing the request. I do think that it's months too soon to know the answer to the question, though - kind of like running four really fast laps at Indy in January and wondering why your time doesn't qualify you for the pole position in May.
post #218 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by hikinokie View Post

Yer kidding, right?

You should know smarty well enough by now to know that he's kidding.
post #219 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

The answer to this specific question won't appear on OPPO's site even when they player is available, so the only way to know is for someone to use the player and find out.

By which time, its prolly too late for any possible problems to be fixed since the player is in production. Just hope the beta testers pay attention to this issue, while the player is still in development. FF and RW is a weak point of the 83.
post #220 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

...


I'm not dismissing the request. I do think that it's months too soon to know the answer to the question, though

More like two ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

...

Expected ship date is late November of this year..

Oppo BDP-93 First Look

Dana
post #221 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklion View Post

By which time, its prolly too late for any possible problems to be fixed since the player is in production. Just hope the beta testers pay attention to this issue, while the player is still in development. FF and RW is a weak point of the 83.

OPPO's DNA is to strive for continuous improvement. So there will be firmware updates throughout its life ...

Dana
post #222 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklion View Post

By which time, its prolly too late for any possible problems to be fixed since the player is in production. Just hope the beta testers pay attention to this issue, while the player is still in development. FF and RW is a weak point of the 83.

OPPO has made refinements to player operation (and sometimes even feature set) after launch on almost all of their players. There's no reason to assume that a firmware fix would have to be made before shipping. Now if the problem is related to a limitation in a chipset vendor's hardware, the only fix would be to change vendors - and such a change could have more negative repercussions than positive. The BDP-93 appears to be offering more things than the BDP-83's SoC could provide, so it seems likely that there are some changes involved. Again, though, it's just too soon to know one way or another.
post #223 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklion View Post

By which time, its prolly too late for any possible problems to be fixed since the player is in production. Just hope the beta testers pay attention to this issue, while the player is still in development. FF and RW is a weak point of the 83.

blacklion,

Since, I've never had a problem with the functionality of FF and RW in my BDP-83SE, I do understand why some would like to see it improved upon. However, I can't remember the last I used this functionality on any of my players since I normally just watch the movie. However, if some feel strongly about the matter, then I would take a wait and see attiude, before speculating.


Willie
post #224 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

blacklion,

Since, I've never had a problem with the functionality of FF and RW in my BDP-83SE, I do understand why some would like to see it improved upon. However, I can't remember the last I used this functionality on any of my players since I normally just watch the movie. However, if some feel strongly about the matter, then I would take a wait and see attiude, before speculating.


Willie

Its not a 'problem' as such; just a function that could be better implemented. I prefer the FF/RW on my Pio 320 to the Oppo but its not a deal breaker; every player has its own strengths and weaknesses. This is just one little area where the Oppo players' performance can hopefully be improved.
post #225 of 1323
Netflix launches in Canada! according to a Netflix blog. What's significant about that?

Because it includes a $7.99 streaming only option. Netflix already comes close in the USA. Streaming plus one disc at a time for $8.99. Reed Hastings, Netflix CEO, says "We are looking at adding a streaming-only option for the USA over the coming months."

Netflix reminds its prospective Canadian customers that streaming is available on several devices including disc players from "... Sharp, VIZIO, Haier and Best Buy’s Insignia brand." Also, LG and Samsung I believe. Soon it can include the OPPO BDP-93 on the list.

OPPO has at least one authorized reseller in Canada; perhaps more. Also OPPO ships directly to Canada and its warranty remains valid when it does.

Critics point out that streaming isn't without its limitations including bandwidth and players. I use the Roku first gen HD box and it's adequate. Engadget's Netflix HD streaming shootout early in 2009 concluded that streaming on a BD player employing more powerful chips transformed the experience.

Some suggest streaming portends the death of discs. I'm not so sure but it's interesting to note that Netflix is promoting it in Canada, where the population density is low. Not too easy there to buzz down to the local disc rental outlet on a sudden whim or to appease the babysitter.

Times are a changing in the way folks rent DVDs and BDs. "Blockbuster files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy" says recent news headlines. In my neck of the woods, several B&M DVD rental outlets have closed. Redbox long since passed Blockbuster in the number of outlets it has - nearly 27,000 kiosks. But streaming is easier still and there's no limit as to the number of titles one can watch that way - other than what the fanny can endure.

So, I say bring on the 93 with the expectation that it will excel at streaming just as we have come to expect OPPO's BD players to excel at disc playing.

Dana
post #226 of 1323
I find FF on media files much more annoying that how the 83 handles FF on discs, if anyone is keeping score.
post #227 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

So, I say bring on the 93 with the expectation that it will excel at streaming just as we have come to expect OPPO's BD players to excel at disc playing.

My experience with streaming Netflix on a couple of different devices is that while it works just fine (I've got a fast Verizon FIOS connection, so I've never had picture breakups or the sound stuttering), the picture and audio quality isn't nearly good enough for me to consider using it as a replacement for physical media anytime soon for most of my viewing. If I want to catch up on some TV shows, the streaming option could work, but definitely not for something of the caliber of Lost or a major movie. These are limitations that can't be resolved by a player with a better scaling chipset or audio processing. I certainly don't object to Oppo including Netflix support - it's clearly going to be a big selling point, it's just not something that is at the top of MY list of priorities. Core player functionality (physical media) should be the #1 priority IMHO.
post #228 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

The answer to this specific question won't appear on OPPO's site even when they player is available, so the only way to know is for someone to use the player and find out. From that standpoint, the level of detail is out-of-place in a thread about a player that is still largely under wraps.

It's curious that the two people who made the responding comments and therefore could speak to their intended meanings are silent but you're weighing in on their behalf. At this point I think you're likely expressing more of your own perspective than theirs.

Although R-G phrased the first (incomplete) sentence of each of his two enumerated items as questions, I think you're overly fixated on the idea that these two issues were "questions," and therefore 'answers' are expected which you find inappropriate. But per his introductory comments to his enumerated points, they are "complaints/wish-list items."

You're well aware given your participation in that thread that numerous guys have been making such comments for many months in the 83 owners thread, basically saying 'when they do another player, here's what I'd dig Oppo including/revising.' Now that we actually know a new player is coming, the notion that somehow being detailed in one's critical observations of the 83 and using those detailed observations to inform one's wishful thinking re the 93 is "out-of place" herein is specious.

Had R-G or someone else weighed in with those comments and offered less detail, I think it's possible that someone, perhaps not you but someone, would have said something along the lines of, 'the 83 is an extremely well-reviewed player . . . see the first post in the owners' thread for all the ebullient reviews . . . I don't know why you're making a big deal out of FF/REW because I don't know about you but when I put a Blooray in its just to watch the movie not REW/FF . . . if you have some obtuse criticisms of a feature that is rarely used . . . YOU NEED TO PROVIDE MORE DETAILS.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

I do think that it's months too soon to know the answer to the question, though - kind of like running four really fast laps at Indy in January and wondering why your time doesn't qualify you for the pole position in May.

If my car's performance on those four laps is problematic in some ways that make me think I might not perform my best come May, I don't know about you but if a decent mechanic who's part of a community/fellowship that I for the most part know to be trustworthy approached me with specific, detailed feedback on what I might do better with my car, I'd welcome the input.

To quote Robert Duvall in Days Of Thunder, "Rubbin's racing!"
post #229 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

My experience with streaming Netflix on a couple of different devices is that while it works just fine (I've got a fast Verizon FIOS connection, so I've never had picture breakups or the sound stuttering), the picture and audio quality isn't nearly good enough for me to consider using it as a replacement for physical media anytime soon for most of my viewing. If I want to catch up on some TV shows, the streaming option could work, but definitely not for something of the caliber of Lost or a major movie. These are limitations that can't be resolved by a player with a better scaling chipset or audio processing. I certainly don't object to Oppo including Netflix support - it's clearly going to be a big selling point, it's just not something that is at the top of MY list of priorities. Core player functionality (physical media) should be the #1 priority IMHO.

I agree. We stream older movies and an occasional TV show, but for recent flix, I'd prefer physical media.
post #230 of 1323
A french website (http://www.audiovideohd.fr/actualite...po-BDP-93.html) mentions that there is a rumour that the Oppo 93 will incorporate "the analogue circuit of the audiophile 83SE with Sabre ESS32 Dacs"

Did anybody hear such a rumour? The Audioholics article didn't mention anything about the Dacs to be used.

Maybe Oppo cancelled the stereo outs to compensate for the more costly DACs on the 7.1 outs?
post #231 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

My experience with streaming Netflix on a couple of different devices is that while it works just fine (I've got a fast Verizon FIOS connection, so I've never had picture breakups or the sound stuttering), the picture and audio quality isn't nearly good enough for me to consider using it as a replacement for physical media anytime soon for most of my viewing. If I want to catch up on some TV shows, the streaming option could work, but definitely not for something of the caliber of Lost or a major movie. These are limitations that can't be resolved by a player with a better scaling chipset or audio processing. I certainly don't object to Oppo including Netflix support - it's clearly going to be a big selling point, it's just not something that is at the top of MY list of priorities. Core player functionality (physical media) should be the #1 priority IMHO.

Understood. Nothing should compromise the 93's excellence at disc playing. Amen to that.

But, Engadget's shootout clearly indicates processing power helps when watching a Netflix streaming video. Also, Netflix is still shooting out 720p. When it finally starts streaming 1080 results may be different/better (and my internet connection may be stressed).

Dana
post #232 of 1323
It was really lame of them not to include digital inputs. Other than that, it seems OK.
post #233 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

It's curious that the two people who made the responding comments and therefore could speak to their intended meanings are silent but you're weighing in on their behalf. At this point I think you're likely expressing more of your own perspective than theirs.

They are welcome to weigh in if they like. I'm speaking solely based on what I see. That's all I can do. For all I know, they're remained silent because they feel that my answer is sufficient. Or they might not have been back to this thread recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

Although R-G phrased the first (incomplete) sentence of each of his two enumerated items as questions, I think you're overly fixated on the idea that these two issues were "questions," and therefore 'answers' are expected which you find inappropriate. But per his introductory comments to his enumerated points, they are "complaints/wish-list items."

I read his post. His opening statement was (and I quote):
Quote:


Is it known yet whether the 93 will offer improvement over the 83 in terms of either:

He asked if it was yet known how the BDP-93 would handle fast forward and rewind functions compared to the BDP-83. I answered his question. I recognize that he (and you, and others) would be interested in seeing the BDP-93 operate differently from the BDP-83 in this regard, but I still think it's unrealistic to expect to know either way how the BDP-93 will perform in this regard - which is what he was asking. If that's not what he meant to say, then so be it. All I can do is read the post and go from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

You're well aware given your participation in that thread that numerous guys have been making such comments for many months in the 83 owners thread, basically saying 'when they do another player, here's what I'd dig Oppo including/revising.' Now that we actually know a new player is coming, the notion that somehow being detailed in one's critical observations of the 83 and using those detailed observations to inform one's wishful thinking re the 93 is "out-of place" herein is specious.

Had R-G or someone else weighed in with those comments and offered less detail, I think it's possible that someone, perhaps not you but someone, would have said something along the lines of, 'the 83 is an extremely well-reviewed player . . . see the first post in the owners' thread for all the ebullient reviews . . . I don't know why you're making a big deal out of FF/REW because I don't know about you but when I put a Blooray in its just to watch the movie not REW/FF . . . if you have some obtuse criticisms of a feature that is rarely used . . . YOU NEED TO PROVIDE MORE DETAILS.'

I have spent a fair number of hours in the BDP-83 thread, but I'll be honest - I haven't followed it regularly in quite a few months, mostly because I got burned out on it, so I haven't been keeping detailed notes on the consensus opinion of the BDP-83's fast forward/rewind behavior.

I'm not suggesting that r-gordon-7's post was inappropriate because it described a refinement he was interested in, even though he stated that he probably wouldn't buy the BDP-93 even if it included that refinement. I'm not saying that giving OPPO feedback is bad, because they've been accepting such feedback for years and often made changes that benefited all their customers as a result. (I've even contributed such feedback, in some cases even pretty darn nit-picky stuff that few people would ever notice either way, while beta testing several of their players.) However, r-gordon-7's original post was a question, and I answered that question as best I could.

Do you disagree that it's unrealistic to expect an answer to that question right now? If so, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

If my car's performance on those four laps is problematic in some ways that make me think I might not perform my best come May, I don't know about you but if approached by a veteran mechanic with specific, detailed feedback on what I might do better with my car, I'd welcome the input.

To quote Robert Duvall in Days Of Thunder, "Rubbin's racing!"

Now you're just twisting analogies around for your own amusement, with no relationship to the actual debate at hand. I'll do the same. If you run four fast laps in January, that information is of limited use because the environmental conditions are radically different (January in Indy is cold, while Memorial Day weekend is usually pretty darn hot - I recall only one year out of the 15 that I went there when I was chilly, and lots where I was roasting) and the car will behave differently in a lot of ways due to that temperature difference. Even if it is useful, though, you're not going to expect those times to count toward time trials and you're not going to tell people outside your race team what your findings were.

Likewise, OPPO could do some tests today and say how these functions work, but they are still developing the player. Firmware changes between now and then could alter behavior one way or the other. They could have plans to implement some refinements later after other code changes are complete that are expected to directly impact how these functions work. All sorts of things could happen. They could have the answer in their hands today, but I wouldn't expect them to tell any of us what it is yet because there is no way to know with 100% certainty that it won't change. There's also the danger of setting a precedent: answer one little operational question, and then spend the next two months doing nothing but answering other questions rather than getting the player built and supporting customers who need help with players they've already bought.

The point isn't whether or not OPPO is going to look for ways to make improvements - as you just pointed out, they are aware that people would like to see changes in this regard, and they have a history of repeatedly addressing such matters with their products when it was practical to do so. The point is whether or not such information is going to be available to us today, in late September, when even someone at OPPO can't say what the final performance will be because the final code isn't written yet.
post #234 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by michdys View Post

A french website (http://www.audiovideohd.fr/actualite...po-BDP-93.html) mentions that there is a rumour that the Oppo 93 will incorporate "the analogue circuit of the audiophile 83SE with Sabre ESS32 Dacs"

Did anybody hear such a rumour? The Audioholics article didn't mention anything about the Dacs to be used.

Maybe Oppo cancelled the stereo outs to compensate for the more costly DACs on the 7.1 outs?

If it has not just the same DACs but the complete analog section of the 83SE, this now becomes very interesting.

The same article says the ship date is Dec 2010.
post #235 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by michdys View Post

A french website (http://www.audiovideohd.fr/actualite...po-BDP-93.html) mentions that there is a rumour that the Oppo 93 will incorporate "the analogue circuit of the audiophile 83SE with Sabre ESS32 Dacs"

Did anybody hear such a rumour? The Audioholics article didn't mention anything about the Dacs to be used.

Maybe Oppo cancelled the stereo outs to compensate for the more costly DACs on the 7.1 outs?

First I've heard of that. Reading between the lines of the Audioholics article, this quote would suggest otherwise:
Quote:


Yes. We are working on a higher-end model that will, unlike the BDP-83SE, be built from the ground up for a higher quality analogue audio level of performance among other improvements and upgrades. This product isn't yet scheduled for release, so it will be after the BDP-93 is well on the market.

That statement suggested to me that the BDP-93's big brother would inherit the BDP-83SE's beefed-up analog section, which means the BDP-93 probably would not. Still, that's just guesswork on my part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by giedrys View Post

It was really lame of them not to include digital inputs. Other than that, it seems OK.

I'm curious why it's lame? It's not a standard feature on other BD players, even ones costing quite a bit more. It's probably not an easy thing to implement, either. They need some way to insure that the input is in a format that the DAC's can accept (PCM stereo), which would mean that they'd probably need to feed the digital input into the input side of the SoC. Disc player SoC's aren't built with that sort of thing in mind - that's what surround receiver audio DSP chips are for.

I agree that it could be a cool feature, but I can understand why they would leave it off of the BDP-93.
post #236 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post

If it has not just the same DACs but the complete analog section of the 83SE, this now becomes very interesting.

The same article says the ship date is Dec 2010.

That doesn't seem reasonable to me. OPPO has already said:

Quote:


We are working on a higher-end model that will, unlike the BDP-83SE, be built from the ground up for a higher quality analogue audio level of performance among other improvements and upgrades. This product isn't yet scheduled for release, so it will be after the BDP-93 is well on the market.

We understand that to be the BDP-95. So why would OPPO muddy the waters by including special audio features of the 83SE in the 93?

Answer: It wouldn't.

Dana
post #237 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

We understand that to be the BDP-95. So why would OPPO muddy the waters by including special audio features of the 83SE in the 93? Answer: It wouldn't.Dana

Plus, if the 93 included the 83SE analog audio features surely it's price would be pegged to the SE not to the regular 83!
post #238 of 1323
Re "For all I know, they're remained silent because they feel that my answer is sufficient."

Or you could be being presumptuous again. Maybe they disagree and have chosen not to bother with countering your presumptions.


Re "I have spent a fair number of hours in the BDP-83 thread, but I'll be honest - I haven't followed it regularly in quite a few months, mostly because I got burned out on it, so I haven't been keeping detailed notes on the consensus opinion of the BDP-83's fast forward/rewind behavior."

That's an artful dodge but the most recent--and I think most significant--FF/REW conversation was a few months ago.

But your burn out comment broaches an I think interesting question. If you found some of the phrasing of R-G's post herein so problematic, why did you feel the need to respond? You've posted to the 83 owners' thread 309 times. Could there be a relationship between your own stated feelings of burn out and this propensity to (sometimes dismissively) respond to other members' queries/comments?


Re "Do you disagree that it's unrealistic to expect an answer to that question right now? If so, why?"

I disagree with your reductionist question that presumes yours is the only way to approach R-G's post. I view it more as a declarative critique. Your selective reading--perhaps for the sake of setting it up as a straw man to knock down--is that the post is interrogative. I think both readings are valid in that there are both declarative and interrogative components to the operative post. But what interests/vexes/burns me out is that you want to exclusively approach it one way, not acknowledge an alternate reading, and then dismiss its detail as "out-of-place." Internet fora such as this are filled with guys who focus on, obsess over and argue about DETAILS.

I find the focus on possible firmware and code changes misplaced because--per Oppo's own e-mails that member "fleaman" shared in the owners' thread--we know that the FF/REW behavior is a function of the chipset the 83 uses rather than settings of said chipset that can be tweaked via firmware. In this regard it is similar to my understanding of the problematic Mediatek chipset that's responsible for the SA-CD and DVD-A playback glitches. So again, from my perspective, we're back to the importance of offering detailed feedback/criticism as early as possible such that chipsets that don't have these issues will be selected for the 93.

And finally re the Indy 500 analogy: I think the most important point is that, in my "twisting," I never presumed that the mechanic with helpful comments is "outside [my] racing team." I even revised my post prior to your response to hopefully make it clear that I was analogizing R-G to a member of my "team" (read: this Forum)--a fellow enthusiast whose reasonable, constructive criticisms should be welcomed. It is, again, interesting however that you chose the less charitable reading so as to seemingly facilitate your dismissal of others' comments.
post #239 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by drbonbi View Post

Understood. Nothing should compromise the 93's excellence at disc playing. Amen to that.

But, Engadget's shootout clearly indicates processing power helps when watching a Netflix streaming video. Also, Netflix is still shooting out 720p. When it finally starts streaming 1080 results may be different/better (and my internet connection may be stressed).

I suspect the bit rate is a LOT more important than changing from 720p to 1080p. That also still leaves the crummy 2 channel, low bit rate audio. I'd prefer to see Netflix increase the bit rate at 720p and improve the audio rather than switch to 1080p. The problem is that most people probably don't have a good enough connection to stream higher quality content reliably and increasing the bit rate becomes a problem for people with monthly bandwidth limits even if their connection is fast enough. It's going to be a tough problem to solve in the relatively near future as more and more providers start streaming content to more consumers.
post #240 of 1323
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

I suspect the bit rate is a LOT more important than changing from 720p to 1080p.

Bingo.
And FWIW, given the current Netflix streaming protocol, 1080 could easily look worse than 720.
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