Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 64

The 1019 was rated at well under 40 watts when tested. The newer 1021 isn't much better.

I have the 919 and it barely drives my 98db speakers at decent levels. The pioneer speakers are decent speakers, and great speakers at their price point. The pioneer amps are feature loaded but are weak on the amps except for the thx rated elite amps, which aren't all that stout either.

The low-mid range onkyo has a much better amp, if it doesn't burn your house down.

i have an onkyo and that sucker runs hot. it heats my whole room up. so when it came time to building a system for my parents, i picked a nice denon. this guy runs cool, and is loaded with features. u get what u pay for.

The new "09" series onkyo's run much cooler apparently. You get what you pay for is BS though. The Denon is nothing more than a Pioneer running different software. They both use the saame board design, components, assembly plant etc.

If "you get what you pay for" was true, then all the "audiophile" stuff out there was be priced cheap, and the pro audio stuff would be in the $2000 range.

Instead you have Crown amps for $300 that are rated for 2ohm loads and do 300 watts per channel at 8ohms, while something comparible in the "audiophile" world is well over $1000. Even the Emotiva stuff is weak and overpriced vs Pro audio.

I don't know what your bias is, but you're full of it. I've owned 3 Onkyo amps and just got the Pioneer. The 1121-k which you keep forgetting to mention has much more power than that, and I provided real testing numbers.

The 919 is equivalent to my old 608, which is nowhere near what the 709 and 1121 can do. You are right, the power is low... that's why I upgraded.

The 609 may be stronger now, and if it is then yes it is the better choice over the 1021 model. It is not stronger than the 1121-k, which is comparable to the 709. The fact you keep forgetting to mention the 1121 shows some pretty extreme bias against Pioneer. The amp in the 1121 is the same amp used in the comparable Elite model. Don't believe me? Open it and see for yourself, or get a service manual.

I happen to love both Onkyo and Pioneer. My 606 had major issues, while my 608 was flawless. The 1121-k is nearly flawless as well.

Sooo... any of you folks ever wanted a little more treb out of the great voice of BS-41's? I stumbled upon my answer in a pair of JBL Studio 180's - so surprised they are voiced very very similar to the BS-41's. I A/B them back and forth and their mid range are largely the same to my ears. Two areas where the 180's claim clear victory: high end and imaging. 180's tweeter is fantastic, crystal clear without a slightest hint of harshness. And 180's imaging is just crazy good. They have the same expansive sound stage as BS-41's, but much clearer sense of location.
So to me these are the better BS-41's, even though they're towers. Yup I paid close to $300, which is double the price of BS-41's these days, or triple the price I actually paid for my BS-41's. But then again, I don't think any speaker out there can match BS-41's in quality per dollar. I love the warm, polite, and spacious voice of BS-41's, and these JBL's just give me more of the same goodness.

Forgetting about price totally...

Can someone give me a recommendation between the Pioneer SP-BS41-LR (bookshelves) and the SP-FS51-LR (towers) that is not price based? I don't "need" to get the towers because I can't afford a sub (already have one) or because I can't afford stands for the bookshelves... and I don't "need" to buy the bookshelves because I can't afford the pricier towers.

"Basic laws of physics" should indicate (whether combined with a sub or not) that the towers will be a much better sounding speaker simply because they have more to them (which one guy stated). Yet another guy said the bookshelves sounded better (cleaner and livelier) and you only need or should get the towers if you can't afford a sub... so I am confused.

I ask because I do not have a Best Buy near me where I can just buy both speakers and return the ones I don't want. I also already have surrounds I like so I don't want to order both speakers and use the ones I like less as surrounds.

I am just looking for a detailed opinion between the two that isn't price based and any help would be appreciated.


Thank you

Mid-Range, as far as I understand, ideally you'd have single driver speakers that can reproduce full range of audible frequency with negligible distortion and flat response. But such driver can't be made, at least for reasonable money. So to cover the full frequency range, we either need multiple drivers in a single box with each handling a narrower range, or we need multiple speakers as in the case of bookshelves + sub. Either way, proper integration of these drivers or speakers is the key to achieve good sound quality. More drivers doesn't necessarily mean better sound, as there's no such law of physics
Many people here prefer the sub route, as it reaches lower and the sub can be located for optimal bass response in the room. And I've read that multiple subs are better, but then integration/calibration could be complicated.

Will the SP-FS51-LR towers with matching center fill a 20'x20'x9' room if I add a sub and get an AVR with enough power?

audio-k why cant I have the tower speakers "and" a sub? Why are my only 2 choices either tower speakers and no sub or bookshelves and a sub? Wouldn't the tower speakers with a sub sound better then the bookshelves with a sub? and if not... why not?

Tower speakers and a sub is pretty much normal..:

Replied to your PM before I see this. For some reason (i.e my poor reading) I thought you were weighing towers without sub vs bookshelves + subs. But you could certainly have towers + subs.

I am looking at this 5.0 set at Best Buy (the Pioneer in discussion), would this be a good pairing with the VSX-921-K I just bought?

Would love to spend less but doesn't seem like I am going to save much. I know there are a lot of watts and ohm stuff to look at, but I do not know the details.

Also eyeing the Onkyo SKS-HT690 , but cannot find any reviews. Otherwise something cheaper like the Yamaha that is on Woot today.

To compare I have always had a Yamaha htr-5730 HTIB and was very satisfied with it.

^ ^
Yup, I think the 921 would drive those Pioneers just fine. In terms of sound quality per dollar, I don't see anything out there that could match these Pioneers. Spacious sound with clarity that no HTIB's would ever come close.

The bookshelf SP-BS21-L says they have a max input of 80watts at 6ohm but the VSX-921 does 125 at 6ohm. Am I missing something?

Are these going to be real heavy on bass? I guess I can always turn the bass down.

The speaker can handle a MAXIMUM of 80 watts and the receiver can produce (theoretically) a MAXIMUM of 125 watts. This is only an issue if you run the receiver at full output. You are rarely going to reach anywhere near those numbers unless you are trying to reach very high volumes in a big room.

Volodymyr pioneer makes a SP-Bs"4"1lr and the 41lr handles up to 130 watts and the 21 only 80 watts. They do not sell at 41s at best buy but... you can order them online from pioneer.

The towers though are he same price of the bookshelves.... so I would get the towers.

Are you saying to not use the bookshelfs? Definitely will not be running real loud so maybe not a problem as suggested above. Even if I was going to run 3.1 would probably be a decent deal as the bookshelf speakers are basically free.

Just my .02, but that is a pretty big room and if you want similar to movie theater volumes they are probably not the best choice. Power is not the issue they are just not sensitive speakers made to run loud in the first place, and asking them to be loud in a decent sized room is setting yourself up for disappointment or damaged speakers.

Having said that it is impossible to answer for sure without knowing what output levels you want. If you know that, then you can do the math pretty easily.

If you do choose them you are definitely going to want a sub and crossing over a little higher than the standard 80Hz may be a good idea.

You'll be more than fine with the 21's. I have the 5.0 with the 21's as the rears paired with a pioneer 919 and absolutely love it. I don't see the need to spend the extra $$ for the 41's. Put that saved money toward a much better sub.

Volodymyr...

What I am saying is... there "two" kinds of bookshelves. the 21lr where the wattage isn't high enough for your system and a 41lr which can take up to a 130 watts. The 130 watt 41lr's are not sold at best buy but you can get them online. If I you feel you "need" bookshelves (because of space or whatever) then get the 41lr bookshelves online. If you don't need the bookshelves and can get whatever you want then go with towers as they also support 130 watts and about the same price and a better speaker (more to it).

I made the mistake of using a receiver with speakers that had a way less of a wattage rating then the receiver and I blew the speakers. And these were $600 speakers. People say if you are careful it wont happen or thats just a myth but... I blew my speakers so I will never make that mistake again.

Trust me do not get the 21lr you could blow them. Get either the 51lr towers at best buy or oder the 41lr bookshelves online.

You will be 100% fine running the BS21 with the VSX-921. They will handle the power with no problem at all. Especially since the receiver will not be sending all 125 watts to them anyway. Wattage is usually over rated nowadays. You will definitely be fine.

I had the same book shelves connected to my Onkyo 809 that is more powerful than the VSX-921 for about 6 months and never had a problem. Go for it....

For $50 more (retail price) the 41s are a huge upgrade over the BS-21s. I have both the 41s and 21s and the 41s spank them considerably. The 21s are being given to a friend.

Vacuum while you listen to music I guess :d

Did it, it was bonus day and they only had one center left so I went for it. He convinced me to buy due to the return policy. I brought up the rears being lower wattage, trying to get them to let me bundle something else and they would not go for it. Soooo I got the warranty on them for $20 so if they blow in four years they have to replace them for free yay.

I can't wait to get my receiver in so I can test them out. Still convinced they will be much more than I need but they were not that much more I guess in the end.

I might try to sell the bookshelf speakers though, if I can get $60 for them and return the $20 warranty that would be fantastic!!! Those things are so big they are definitely not wall-mount and if I have to buy shelves for them... besides the room is not huge so they are not really going to even be BEHIND us.

We will see

Thanks guys!

This is where speakers become SO subjective. Personal taste, room acoustics, source material and a dozen different factors can influence perception.

In my living room HT I have the towers as my fronts and the BS41's as rears in this configuration it would be hard to say that one set has a decided advantage over the other.

But I can share this. I have hooked up both of these speakers to my 1970's vintage Marantz amp that I use in my music room mostly just to see how they sound with way more power than my current AVR puts out. I thought they both shined as stereo speakers set up like this. In my opinion I thought the towers definitely had better low end than the 41's and made better use of the 130 real watts that the Marantz puts out. Not sure how to put it other than more "umpf"

The bookshelves were also very good, in some ways as good as the much more expensive speakers that normally live in that room. The mid-range was especially good and I remember being impressed with the sound stage that produced very good results with very little tweaking of speaker position. Perhaps better than the towers. Now it should be noted that this was not a true A/B comparison as I listened to them several weeks apart.

I'm not sure what the other poster meant by the bookshelves being "cleaner and livelier". Probably no more than he knows what I mean by more "umpf". I'm also a bit unclear on what you mean by your "basic laws of physics" statement. Yes, more drivers mean more surface area moving air. But IMHO the size of your room and a dozen other factors will have more impact on how a particular speaker sounds. I hope this helps and I'm sorry that none of this will give you the definite answer as to which speaker is better for you. But there really is no alternative to actually listening to a speaker and deciding which sounds best to you.

Cabinguy and everyone else thanks for your input!

But now I have another question/problem...


I live in Canada, and right now Best Buy Canada does not offer any of the Pioneer speakers and it doesn't look like they are getting them anytime soon. Also after a 3 hour internet search so far the only places I could find that sell the SP-FS51-LR towers online... and aren't listed as "out of stock" are... Pioneer USA, Best Buy USA, and Pioneer Canada. Both Pioneer USA and Best Buy USA do not ship to Canada... So unless you know another place online that "currently" has these speakers... then I have to by from Pioneer Canada.


Here is the problem...

Pioneer Canada raised their price of the towers to $349.99. But they still have the sp-b41-lr for $199.99. Now I am all for spending extra money if justified... but what I am wondering is... are the towers really worth $150 more?

If I would really have to "strain" to hear a "huge huge" difference in sound between the bookshelves and towers then it's not worth it to spend the extra $150. I could put that $ towards the center speaker. However if I am going to be "absolutely blown away" by the sound of towers compared to the bookshelves then it is worth it.

Another thing I wondering is if I was to spend $349 on the towers... for an extra $200-$300 more could I have some "possibly" "way better" speakers?



Just so you know my setup to help you in advice for my decision.

- Yamaha RX-A1000 Aventage receiver (bought last year)
- Polk fxi-a4 di/bi polar switchable surrounds
- Polk psw10 subwoofer
- my fronts / center from an old theatre in a box system (desperately need new fronts / center)
- Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 8350 HD1080p projector
- 92" Everview Grey Screen

- My theater/living room is about 13 feet wide and 16 feet long. I have one only 3 walls because 1 wall opens to the kitchen. My ceilings are 10 feet high and are double vaulted concrete.


Now you may be asking yourselves why would he combine $199-$350 speakers with a receiver he paid $1000 for, surounds worth over $300 and a projector and screen he paid $1700 for? Thing is if the speakers sound good... why not?

So what do you think? The bookshelves (41-lr) at $199.99? The towers at 349.99? or $600 on better speakers? If I could still get the towers at $199.99 I would easily pull the trigger but at $349.99 I am not so sure. Maybe the 41-lr's for the price are ones with getting?


Thanks in advance for all your help.

I'd pick BS-41's over FS-51's - just on sound quality, not price - and buy a couple subs to go with them. More expensive speakers I've had are Jamo C607, PSB T5, Axiom M3, and lately JBL Studio 190 and 180. They're at least double the price of BS-41, but I like BS-41's sound better than all except the JBL's. So if you want to save some money for subs or receiver, you won't go wrong with BS-41's. But you'd need to factor in the cost for speaker stands if going with BS-41's, although that shouldn't be much.

FS51 = More impact, slightly deeper.

BS41 = Better imaging

Can't go wrong either way, except see if Newegg delivers to Canada. The $99 sale price for the 51's was silly good. It will happen again in time.

Midrange,
Looks like Newegg does not ship to Canada, bummer.

If these are really your only options than for the prices you quote I would go with 4 of the BS-41's the center and a nice sub like the Bic F12. Put them on stands, hook them up to your Yamaha and enjoy.

One of the guys in the Energy owners thread just used Kinek to ship speakers to Canada. Don't know if that will work for you, Midrange, or if it would be cheaper. Would be worth checking into.