Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 84

Originally Posted by Walkamo

The new models will not be on the website until July.

And yes you will start seeing the last production run of 41's show up soon online.

Thanks,

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by Ratified

Cant wait to see the changes/ improvements. But please, dont make them too much better! My wife wont understand the need to buy new speakers so soon!!
Oh well, its easier to get forgiveness than permission!!!

Originally Posted by nuttybardude

i'm pretty sure I cleared out the best buy near me, bought the last 51's, 21's and c21 for $220 before taxes. I'm upgrading from Energy Classic Take's which I sold the whole set for $200. So I'm pretty happy I got these Pioneer speakers for this cheap.

the only question I really have is setting up my rears. I had my energys up in the corner angled down at the listening position and I wanted to do something similar with the 21's. If I can't angle them down, is it really that big of a deal if I do have to end up building a shelf and have them sit flat?
(the 21 will go where the right speaker is)

Originally Posted by stereodude

so from $60k speakers to $200 speakers? Oh, i'm sure the pedigree is still there.

I've heard the $60k ones. They are insanely good.

Smells like a marketing double speak to me. I can't imagine andrew jones really wants his name on a $200 pair of speakers.

Originally Posted by andrewj

i've been watching this thread with interest, and after prodding from chris i am going to address as many of the issues as i can, in one missive. Forgive me if i ramble too much!
First to address the issue of designing not only a $200 speaker but also an $89, after a $60,000 speaker. It's not marketing [double] speak. I had full control of the design and voicing of these speakers, and it was actually a very interesting challenge.
When designing a flagship speaker, of course it's fun as an engineer to work almost unconstrained and to be allowed to explore all sorts of options, advanced materials, large budgets etc. The result should be at the very least excellent, at best unsurpassed.
What however, is the attraction to designing such a low cost speaker?
Well, it's still an interesting challenge, partly because there is so little product out there at these prices that appears to have had much thought put into the sound quality. Marketing and visual design trump sound. But why does this have to be the case?
That was the driving force behind these speakers. With little money to spend, with no advanced materials possible, what are the limits and possibilities?
The challenge becomes examining every single aspect of the design and engineering process and looking where performance can be optimised at no increased cost (cone shape and surround profile, for example) and where one cost can be traded for another.
How important is a film cap, how audible is a ferrite core inductor compared to a laminated core, how much flux can i drag out of a particular size magnet with the right design of pole pice and top plate and back plate. How do i trade voice coil length and top plate thickness for excursion. How do i save money to spend on a curve sided cabinet. Can i afford an rf pressed curved side panel rather than an inferior kerf cut panel.???
There are many more examples.
Then comes the issue of voicing. How resolving is the speaker. Should resolution over-ride bandwidth. How will this speaker be used. What will it be paired with. What kind of bass balance. Should it leap of the shelf in the store with a forward "impressive" sound, or be more neutral and relaxing for more satisfying long term enjoyment.??
As you can see, there are so many avenues to explore in the design, why shouldn't it be just as interesting a project as when designing a flagship.
Of course, if i'd failed in my objectives, and my name was still on it, i'd have changed my name by now!!
And just so you know, i've changed my signature on my credit cards and check book, just to be safe......
Of course, these are not going to be the best out there, but they are i hope, incredible value, and set new standards at the price points.
It is very unusual to be able to incorporate curved sided cabinets, 1" soft dome tweeters, woofers with real size magnets, six element crossovers etc in a product like this. At times i look back on this project and am just as amazed as some of you.
Of course, although i cannot go into detailing about pricing, and relative value between different speakers, manufacturing costs and selling quantities play a significant role, as kal alluded to. It is rare that in a range of product there is a linear relationship between parts cost and selling price. Expected sales volume of each model has to be balanced against development costs, parts costs, distribution costs etc. This is the real world of manufacturing as opposed to hobbyist building!
Now to some specific issues.
There has been some confusion between different speakers shown at cedia and in the blogs. The speakers i have designed here are the bs21, c21, fs51, for bb, and the bs41, along with the sub.
The other series are very different in componentry and price, and are from a different series and origin entirely.
As for "a vertical tube feeding out the bottom sucks away standing waves." this is misquoted. There is a vertical tube inside the speaker. It acts much like a quarter wave stub in antenna design. At the frequency of the main standing wave within the cabinet, it is tuned, by means of its length, internal absorption and location within the cabinet, to short circuit the standing wave and virtually eliminate it. Very neat trick!
Now, as for the center channel speaker, yes it can be used vertically, and in fact would work even better this way. It's an unfortunate fact of home life that center channels are required to be wide and low in shape, forcing typically dual woofers and a central tweeter. This is not a great arrangement for good horizontal dispersion. I have done my best by designing a waveguide around the tweeter to match its directivity to the bass driver, and have set a low xover frequency compared to what is typical for this class of speaker.
It's dual woofers have been optimized for greater mid bass power handling when used along with a subwoofer, for home theater use, as opposed to bass extension for a reasonable full range stereo speaker as was the goal for the bookshelves.
All said, go ahead and use two center speakers vertically.
Regarding the grille design, this is a matter of taste. We did do a survey, and found that the design was liked, but of course we won't please everyone. It does however have some sound advantages. Minimal diffraction of the sound wave, acoustically quite transparent, and a very strong barrier to the drivers. You won't find your tweeter domes and woofer dustcaps pushed in, either at store level (i'm convinced half the time it's from rival manufacturers.;-) ) or at home.
The grilles can be removed with a lot of effort, but i would suggest you leave them in place. You won't gain much by removing them.
Now, the height of the towers. Everything comes at a cost. As chris said, i had to be reigned in constantly to not overspend. With great height comes great...cost. Cost but little sonic benefit. Another area where i had to make choices. Same with the vents.flared on the outside but not on the inside. Slightly more chuffing at extreme levels, but that cost saving went elsewhere, to greater benefit.
Sensitivity is lower than some of the competitors, except that it is an honestly quoted spec, as is the impedance. Lower sensitivity allows me to design for decent bass extension. With a typical receiver or two channel amp, you won't have too much trouble driving to respectable levels. Head-banging levels? You'd have to be the judge of that, but they are only $89!!
Ok, so lots of words. Now i know why kal gets paid so much for writing. It's tough!
Go listen, judge for yourself. If you like what you hear, i'm happy.

Andrew jones

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Will the upcoming models be available anywhere in the UK? Currently the SP-BS41-LR is only available from two online-only shops and for more than double the US price.

Originally Posted by Walkamo

Here is one of the woofers from the new line-up that Andrew spoke about in the Podcast. Just a peek.

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by Monkish54

Thanks for the peek, Chris!! I must say that is a sexy looking driver.

Do you know if the open-house will be on a weekday?

Originally Posted by Walkamo

Here is one of the woofers from the new line-up that Andrew spoke about in the Podcast. Just a peek.

Originally Posted by Walkamo


It will most likely be on a weeknight... Our demo room is not available during the weekend....

I am shooting for next week sometime...

Thanks,

Chris Walker

Originally Posted by Monkish54

I just finished watching Andrew's interview on Home Theater Geeks. It was wicked awesome!

I thought it was funny when he stumbled on a few words towards the end. I actually did the same thing when I met him. I tried to say "sibling rivalry" and just couldn't get it out of my mouth. I went home thinking: "Andrew probably thinks i'm such a dumbass." :P Good times!

Andrew made mention that someone on a forum disbelieved that he designed this line of speakers. The person claimed it was marketing hype. Andrew personally posted explaining that he did, in fact, design these speakers. It was actually in this thread that it happened.

Originally Posted by nuttybardude

i'm pretty sure I cleared out the best buy near me, bought the last 51's, 21's and c21 for $220 before taxes. I'm upgrading from Energy Classic Take's which I sold the whole set for $200. So I'm pretty happy I got these Pioneer speakers for this cheap.

the only question I really have is setting up my rears. I had my energys up in the corner angled down at the listening position and I wanted to do something similar with the 21's. If I can't angle them down, is it really that big of a deal if I do have to end up building a shelf and have them sit flat?
(the 21 will go where the right speaker is)

Originally Posted by Walkamo

Here is one of the woofers from the new line-up that Andrew spoke about in the Podcast. Just a peek.


Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt

Chris,

Have you considered a satin or matte finish instead of the vinyl woodgrain?

Originally Posted by Walkamo

Let me ask Andrew....

Thanks,

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by Walkamo

Hi Everyone,

As promised we would like to offer an invitation to audition our new line of Speakers designed by Andrew Jones.

The open house will take place at our office in Long Beach, Ca. on the evening of June 7th from 7:00pm to 9:00pm.

Andrew Jones will be giving the demonstration and will answer any questions related to these speakers or other speakers that Andrew has designed.

We will be comparing these new models to the previous versions as well as to similar priced competitors.

If you are interested in attending this Speaker Open House please send me a private message with your full name (I need this for setting up security clearance).

We can only accommodate around 20 people so it will have to be first come first serve.

Unfortunately we will not be able to have a full TAD system due to the products being at the Newport Hi-Fi show. They won't make it back in time. However we will probably have a surprise or two.

Thanks,

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics