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Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 96

post #2851 of 5329
I may be able to move the couch up a bit, but what I'm concerned with right now is making it easier on the wife. I think the surrounds have to stay where they are.

I'm assuming that housing the speakers in any kind of cabinetry would have a negative impact on the sound. Like if I had some sort of custom entertainment center built to house the towers and center speaker?
post #2852 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishdoom View Post

I may be able to move the couch up a bit, but what I'm concerned with right now is making it easier on the wife. I think the surrounds have to stay where they are.

If you can't lower them down on the wall, see if you can angle them down more toward your primary listening position. That will help.
post #2853 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

I've updated the other thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1421020/best-5-1-setup-with-avr-for-500/90#post_22303682

Advice and updates are noted, solarium, Cel4145, and zieglj01. Thanks:D
post #2854 of 5329
My set arrived today (fs52x2, cs22, and bs22-lr) and I've just unboxed and am breaking in, they look better with the new grill.

Liking sound. Popped an sacd of fritz reiner's Sheherezade into to oppo 83 and things sound right so far.

My main ht system has triangle titus esprits and a sextan center channel and these speakers are in the rec room where i watch a lot of tv. These are an excellent bargain.
Edited by Notronuser - 8/13/12 at 6:26pm
post #2855 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notronuser View Post

Liking sound. Popped an sacd of fritz reiner's Sheherezade into to oppo 83 and things sound right so far.
My main ht system has triangle titus esprits and a sextan center channel and these speakers are in the rec room where i watch a lot of tv. These are an excellent bargain.

I just bought the bookshelf speakers today, to give them a shake down. They are better than the
phase one Pioneer >> the midrange is improved, the treble is better, and the bass is really nice.
That 4" woofer has good bass that is tight, tuneful and controlled. Anyone needing a good budget
bookshelf speaker, needs to check them out. They are on sale at Best Buy. They will hold their
own and more against some name brand entry level speakers >> that are not sold in places like
Best Buy and Frys. This is a true bargain speaker.
post #2856 of 5329
I'm kinda debating upgrading to a Denon 1712 or a 1713 from the 1612. I'm between the 1712's more watts per channel (90w and 7.1) or 1713's airplay and networking capabilities. Would I notice a difference in sound quality upgrading from 75w per channel 5.1 to 90w per channel 7.1? Currently, I have to put the volume up to -5 to -10 db's during the day time to listen to conversations clearly from a 5.1 Dolby Digital source, although I put it down to -15 to -20 during music playback Dolby Prologic II and -25 to -30 if Multi Channel Stereo. With the 1612, even at 0db during 5.1 movie playback my ears aren't being blasted yet, so I'm concerned whether I will be able to play at "loud" levels at all without upgrading to a receiver with more wattage.
post #2857 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

I'm kinda debating upgrading to a Denon 1712 or a 1713 from the 1612. I'm between the 1712's more watts per channel (90w and 7.1) or 1713's airplay and networking capabilities. Would I notice a difference in sound quality upgrading from 75w per channel 5.1 to 90w per channel 7.1? Currently, I have to put the volume up to -5 to -10 db's during the day time to listen to conversations clearly from a 5.1 Dolby Digital source, although I put it down to -15 to -20 during music playback Dolby Prologic II and -25 to -30 if Multi Channel Stereo. With the 1612, even at 0db during 5.1 movie playback my ears aren't being blasted yet, so I'm concerned whether I will be able to play at "loud" levels at all without upgrading to a receiver with more wattage.

Well, on the face of it, going from 75wpc to 90wpc is an insignificant power upgrade. That 15wpc increase is approximately equal to a .5dB increase in output. The question I can't answer is with regard to how accurate those power ratings are. Is the 1612 really giving you more like 50wpc into 5.1 while the 1712 gives you closer to 90wpc 7.1? If that were the case, then the power upgrade would become more attractive.

Based on factory numbers alone, I would upgrade only if there are features you want (7.1, MultiEQ XT, etc).
Edited by vraxoin - 8/15/12 at 12:09am
post #2858 of 5329
The Denon 1612 receiver is giving 71 watts in surround mode - which is nice.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

The 90 watt Denon will only give you a few more watts in surround mode - not worth
the upgrade for a few watts alone.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2112ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

The Pioneer speakers are good for what they can do - however, they are not made for
mancave-volume levels.
Edited by zieglj01 - 8/14/12 at 9:55pm
post #2859 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

The Denon 1612 receiver is giving 71 watts in surround mode - which is nice.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
The 90 watt Denon will only give you a few more watts in surround mode - not worth
the upgrade for a few watts alone.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2112ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
The Pioneer speakers are good for what they can do - however, they are not made for
mancave-volume levels.

That's for sure...They're not man-cave or reference level speakers but are a VERY balanced speaker for the price. Don't feel bad Solarium, I have to turn up my receiver anywhere from -20 to -15(and -10 sometimes). What I really notice is that not all sound sources are created equal. What I mean by this is depending on how the movie or music was mixed, It will either sound lower or louder. For example, I have Batman Arkham City demo and Bourne Identity demo on my PS3, when I scroll over the Batman demo it isn't really loud so I have to turn up the volume to hear it, whereas the Bourne game is really loud and I have to turn down the volume.
Like you, I want to be immersed in the sound whether it's music, a game, or a movie but in order to do that I'll have to get a better speaker which means I'm going to have to spend more money. Right now isn't a good time for me to do that but I did upgrade from a HTiB system so these Pio's sound 1000 times better which gives me some breathing room to really save and get what I REALLY want. Just wanted to share. Oh Yeah my receiver is a old Yamaha HTR-5450 HTiB receiver so that should make you feel a little better.
post #2860 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoonful View Post

Long time lurker, first time poster. I got these speakers a bit ago based on afrogt's suggestion in another forum that i threadjacked. I am coming from computer speakers that i had connected to my HTPC so this is all very new to me. a recent purchase of a large LED TV prompted overall upgrades to my very modest HT setup. I had great TV and great HD content via blu ray and my HD HomeRun Prime but the sounds was horrible. My budget was literally as close to zero as i could get but i managed to get the 5.0 system for $140 and a Denon 1712 for $200 so im pleased. Since getting these speakers I have read the ENTIRE thread which took a while. I have learned some of the following:
  • how to use banana plugs with these speakers (after i already bought the pin version)
  • the Styrofoam from the packaging makes a cheap little stand for the 51's (see pic), even better when painted
  • my subwoofer will probably cost me some coin
  • my neighborhood best buy employees are not uncommonly awful but just commonly awful
  • women seem to be more of a limiting factor than money in people's HT plans (LOL) or at least they are perceived as so
I had to raise the TV with a riser from Amazon. Cost me $30 but it raised the TV such that i can set the center speaker on my TV stand (the speaker wont fit in the riser, too big) and put my boyfriend's xbox out of sight in the riser. I haven't gotten around to putting the 21's up for rears yet. I plan to get some small wall mounted shelves from Ikea as I don't have a lot of space around my couch for stands. and, no subwoofer yet. I saw some on craigslist (F12 bic america) for 175 but I think i need to let my wallet heal before making more purchases. I am hoping to get a good one on black friday. i still have some more arranging to do which is why the pictures look weird behind the TV.
now i have to read the Denon XX12 thread because i can barely get the receiver to work.

Nice room. I am thinking to rise the speakers,too. could you tell me what the white part you put under the speakers?
post #2861 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post



BTW, due to the center speaker size, I decided to change my TV stand. I bought a $40 TV stand (as pictured) that can fit my center in the center console, but didn't realize that it left no room for my receiver (doh!). I also bought some very sturdy speaker stands ($10) for the FS51's to bring their tweeters to at least listening level and adjustable rear stands ($20) for the BS21's next to the couch. I end up using my coffee table as a temporary solution to my receiver placement, although I will probably just place it completely behind the TV since it looks like the current generation of Denon GUI is adequate to adjust everything on the TV thus having no need for the front display. Any comments on speaker placement would be nice, since I placed them rather hastily.

hi, Solarium,

I saw you use the Energy 10.3 with the Pioneer speaker.

I have the same speaks set as yours and I am looking for a sub.

how's this sub? may I will could either this one or Jamo SUB 650.
post #2862 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTTOG View Post

Nice room. I am thinking to rise the speakers,too. could you tell me what the white part you put under the speakers?

not my post, but they mentioned "the Styrofoam from the packaging makes a cheap little stand for the 51's (see pic), even better when painted"
post #2863 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTTOG View Post

hi, Solarium,
I saw you use the Energy 10.3 with the Pioneer speaker.
I have the same speaks set as yours and I am looking for a sub.
how's this sub? may I will could either this one or Jamo SUB 650.

I think most people with the Pioneer set chooses either the BIC F12 or the Energy 10.3 for it. I hear that although the BIC has a 12" woofer vs Energy's 10", it doesn't sound as accurate and tight as the Energy. However, the BIC is thought to be more boomier, if you're into boomy 5.1 movies. I followed everyone's advice on getting the Energy and appreciate its blending well with the rest of the set both sonically and physically (its paint job is nearly identical). The only gripe that I have is its blue LED light, which is a bit too bright for my taste but it's something very easily ammenable. All in all, I don't think there's a better fit for the Pioneer set than the Energy sub, look for it to be on sale on newegg for under $200 for a great deal.
post #2864 of 5329
Hi Everyone,

Been sifting through pages and pages of these forums for the past 2 weeks while deciding on a setup for my new condo and THANKS to everyone's input/comments my setup is almost complete! Here's what I've got so far

Pioneer BS41 - Front L/R - $99/pair (newegg deal from last weekend)
CS22 - Center ($79 - best buy)
BS22 - Surround L/R ($89/pair - also from Best Buy)
BIC F-12 - Sub which should be arriving today ($200 from amazon)
Pioneer Elite VSX-51 Receiver - ($350 - picked this up on clearance from Best Buy)

At first I hooked up the C22 with BS22's as my front L/R while waiting for the 41s to arrive. Ran Full Auto MCACC, hooked up my Macbook Pro by HDMI to the receiver, receiver to TV with a cheapo HDMI from best buy, put on The Dark Knight MKV file I had and boy did it kick my ass! Even with just 3 fronts it was amazing to watch and hear. After the 41s came in I hooked to those up to the front (22's are in the back but I'm still wiring them).

IN CASE anyone's on the fence on whether to use the 41's vs the 22 as fronts (though it might seem like a no brainer to some) I would highly recommend the 41s. I did a quick test (nothing too scientific at all) of putting one 41 as L front and a 22 as R, set my iphone to mono, played a 320 Kbps MP3 switching from L to R and there is a big difference. Much fuller and louder sound from the 41 with substantial bass.

Between getting the place painted, setting up furniture, and wiring/packaging littered everywhere, it's a complete mess. Should have it mostly cleaned up by Sunday with some pics and more updates to follow!!! Thanks to you all again for your time and effort in helping a novice like me out with this dizzying process smile.gif
post #2865 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

I think most people with the Pioneer set chooses either the BIC F12 or the Energy 10.3 for it. I hear that although the BIC has a 12" woofer vs Energy's 10", it doesn't sound as accurate and tight as the Energy. However, the BIC is thought to be more boomier, if you're into boomy 5.1 movies. I followed everyone's advice on getting the Energy and appreciate its blending well with the rest of the set both sonically and physically (its paint job is nearly identical). The only gripe that I have is its blue LED light, which is a bit too bright for my taste but it's something very easily ammenable. All in all, I don't think there's a better fit for the Pioneer set than the Energy sub, look for it to be on sale on newegg for under $200 for a great deal.

Thanks, Do you hear of someone use the Jamo SUB 650 with the Pioneer speaks?

I found this 12" sealed sub is onsale about 250. I like more musical sub.
post #2866 of 5329
if you like musical subs, get the energy 10.3, otherwise get the BIC PL200 over the F12
post #2867 of 5329
I am using the Bic F12 in my system and love it.
Edited by hyghwayman - 8/19/12 at 12:41pm
post #2868 of 5329
BTW, what is the recommended crossover setting for the fs51, c21 and bs21's? My denon Audyssey detected it as 40/40/60, and I see the batpig's Denon receiver setup recommendation to be an overall 80hz crossover. I haven't changed a thing in the settings after finally doing the Audyssey calibration correctly after many times, but would it be advisable to change my 40/40/60 crossover to 80?
post #2869 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post

BTW, what is the recommended crossover setting for the fs51, c21 and bs21's? My denon Audyssey detected it as 40/40/60, and I see the batpig's Denon receiver setup recommendation to be an overall 80hz crossover. I haven't changed a thing in the settings after finally doing the Audyssey calibration correctly after many times, but would it be advisable to change my 40/40/60 crossover to 80?

The 40/40/60 by Audyssey indicates that's where Audyssey feels is the low roll off of each speaker. Don't go below that because Audyssey EQ filters do not work correctly if you do. 80hz is sort of a general all around crossover setting, but if you like the crossover set a little lower (60hz), do what sounds best to you. Generally best not to go above 80hz thought because the bass from the sub can become localized (you'll hear it more coming from the sub). I'd probably try both 80hz and 60hz for the front sound stage, but leave the rears on 80hz.
post #2870 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The 40/40/60 by Audyssey indicates that's where Audyssey feels is the low roll off of each speaker. Don't go below that because Audyssey EQ filters do not work correctly if you do. 80hz is sort of a general all around crossover setting, but if you like the crossover set a little lower (60hz), do what sounds best to you. Generally best not to go above 80hz thought because the bass from the sub can become localized (you'll hear it more coming from the sub). I'd probably try both 80hz and 60hz for the front sound stage, but leave the rears on 80hz.

I honestly don't hear a difference between 60 and 80, although the bass is of "lower" quality from 60 to 40 on the front speakers. If I leave it at 80 vs 60, would I be able to drive my speakers to higher volumes since it saves up the low end power?
post #2871 of 5329
Well I just finally had the chance today to watch some movies and REALLY test out these speakers and I have to say that not only am I satisfied with how the sound and perform, I'm also impressed. I watched Mr. and Mrs. Smith and the Bourne Trilogy all on blu-ray with my receiver set on - 15 and then put on the night time sound and turned it down to -20 and it still was great. tThe sound across the front sound stage was on point and the panning of the different sounds really gave me that immersive sound I've been longing for. I' using my Yamaha HTiB sub(which is only a 150watt 6.5inch sub) and it handled the lows very well. Now I just need to upgrade to the Energy sub and that will be happening soon since I keep reading that it's an accurate sub. Anyway, just wanted to share my experience with these speakers tonight. Next...Music time
post #2872 of 5329
^ and you have the 51s or 52s?
post #2873 of 5329
I'm using the 51's and the c-21.
post #2874 of 5329
Im new to this forum and have been reading this thread with great interest.

I have been using the 41s for a while and decided to try out the 51s in my bedroom. They replaced a set of Morsdaunt Shorts. I do like them quite a bit.

Then yesterday I went ahead and added a pair of 52 instead of my B&W 602S3 and wow. I wasn't expecting it to be better but it was. Suddenly I find I am getting a flatter frequency response in my room, and a harshness that was always hard to tame was gone. I relegated the B&W to a surround sound system in my home theatre where it can continue the rest of its life!

I am currently using a Crown XLS 802 power amp (way more power than I need) but its clean and can handle almost any load.

Soon I will throw in my McIntosh MC252 and see how they match the Pioneers. I am thinking of raising the speakers a bit to get the tweeter to ear level.

Personally I don't care about looks when it comes to music reproduction (my spouse is forgiving when it comes to me pursuing my passion for music) but I have no complaints with the way these speakers look.

The 51s have their metal grills punched in (store demo) which I would like to fix if I can.

So in essence, what am I reminded of? A long time ago, when HiFi was still more a mainstream hobby, I remember auditioning a bunch of speakers at Richer Sounds in Glasgow. These Pioneers remind me of the sound of some of those British gems I lusted for back in the day.
post #2875 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afridi62 View Post

Then yesterday I went ahead and added a pair of 52 instead of my B&W 602S3 and wow. I wasn't expecting it to be better but it was. Suddenly I find I am getting a flatter frequency response in my room, and a harshness that was always hard to tame was gone. I relegated the B&W to a surround sound system in my home theatre where it can continue the rest of its life!
I am currently using a Crown XLS 802 power amp (way more power than I need) but its clean and can handle almost any load.

The new Phase 2 Pioneer speakers will hold their own, against some popular and more expensive name brands.
post #2876 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afridi62 View Post

Im new to this forum and have been reading this thread with great interest.
I have been using the 41s for a while and decided to try out the 51s in my bedroom. They replaced a set of Morsdaunt Shorts. I do like them quite a bit.
Then yesterday I went ahead and added a pair of 52 instead of my B&W 602S3 and wow. I wasn't expecting it to be better but it was. Suddenly I find I am getting a flatter frequency response in my room, and a harshness that was always hard to tame was gone. I relegated the B&W to a surround sound system in my home theatre where it can continue the rest of its life!
I am currently using a Crown XLS 802 power amp (way more power than I need) but its clean and can handle almost any load.
Soon I will throw in my McIntosh MC252 and see how they match the Pioneers. I am thinking of raising the speakers a bit to get the tweeter to ear level.
Personally I don't care about looks when it comes to music reproduction (my spouse is forgiving when it comes to me pursuing my passion for music) but I have no complaints with the way these speakers look.
The 51s have their metal grills punched in (store demo) which I would like to fix if I can.
So in essence, what am I reminded of? A long time ago, when HiFi was still more a mainstream hobby, I remember auditioning a bunch of speakers at Richer Sounds in Glasgow. These Pioneers remind me of the sound of some of those British gems I lusted for back in the day.

Welcome. Glad that you like them. These are definitely a "budget gem" speaker set. I've been telling everyone who is the market for a good balanced speaker about them...I'm still excited about these speakers.
Again, I'm loving them right along with you and everyone here on this board who are enjoying them.
post #2877 of 5329
For those that have the phase 2 series of these, how do you think they would stack up against the Martin Logan Motion's(Motion 262 set to be exact). I know its a kind of speaker but these are the two that I have been going back and forth with. I havent been able to find anywhere that has the phase 2's to listen to. Best buy only has the first series. The Martin Logans are substantially more so i just dont know if i want to spend that much and if it is worth the extra. These will be powered by a Denon 1913
post #2878 of 5329
Quote:
Originally Posted by tza88 View Post

For those that have the phase 2 series of these, how do you think they would stack up against the Martin Logan Motion's(Motion 262 set to be exact). I know its a kind of speaker but these are the two that I have been going back and forth with. I havent been able to find anywhere that has the phase 2's to listen to. Best buy only has the first series. The Martin Logans are substantially more so i just dont know if i want to spend that much and if it is worth the extra. These will be powered by a Denon 1913

I've heard other Motion series loudspeakers (the Motion 12, 10, 4, 8 and 6), but not the 262 series, so I do have some sense of the difference in sound. The one most like the Motion 262 that I've heard is the Motion 4. The best feature in them is the folded motion tweeter, which provides a lot of detail in the treble. Cymbals sound very present and realistic in well-recorded 2-channel music, as an example. The downside is that the Motion mini-monitors I've heard don't provide much bass on their own without adding a subwoofer. Now, if you're planning on just using them as a home cinema setup, this isn't a problem, because of the kinds of bass you encounter in movie sound mixes.

However, if you want to listen to music on whatever system you buy without having it be overly boomy, you may be disappointed by the Martin Logans. For me, that was what weighed in favor of the 2012 Andrew Jones Pioneers. I prefer their bass presence without having to use the sub. It also was what led me away from B&W M-1s. They just couldn't provide bass presence for music without one, and I knew I wouldn't be happy with it.
post #2879 of 5329
I had my old JBL HTiB woofer crap out on me a week ago. I took it apart and aside from finding 2 matchbox cars, 3 plastic strawberries and some assorted Legos rattling around in the box all courtesy of my 2-year old son, I dented the cone and still couldn't figure out what to do to exercise the demon that had possessed it: (note - it is only plugged in to power, no audio source whatsoever)



After some extensive research, I decided the Pioneers would be the best replacements for me for a few reasons:
  1. If my 2-year old or 4-year old kills these, I won't be tempted to do the same to them.
  2. If they are as good as everyone here says, I shouldn't need to upgrade anyway.
  3. I want to try life without a sub - I think I would rather have Floors and miss the 25hz to 60hz that would wake my kids anyway...

So, here is my family room - you can see the old micro JBL speakers in the top left and right corners. Since I am now doing floors I will have to run the speaker wire in the basement and back up this weekend.

post #2880 of 5329
Really appreciate all the great insights from this thread. I purchased the BS-41s and CS-21 a couple months back on one of the numerous newegg sales. Have them paired with the Denon 1612 and am loving everything so far (first actual home theater setup). Definitely planning to add a sub, but waiting until I move into a new apartment in the next month.

Think I may already know the answer from backreading, but is it not advisable to use the new FS-52s with the CS-21 as the center and the BS-41s as rears? The cosmetic improvements with the grilles on the FS-52s should enable me to get girlfriend approval (she couldn't get past the appearance of the prior model). I'd also be alright replacing the CS-21 with the CS-22 (so that the fronts are timbre matched) as long as it wouldn't have too big an impact to keep the BS-41S as the rears.

Any input is greatly appreciated. No immediate rush to do this, but just planning ahead. May even end up using the current 3.0 (plus a new sub) for another year and wait for deals on the new models before upgrading.
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