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Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 127

post #3781 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse View Post


Ummm... What?!

Interesting eek.gif Violating the laws of physics at a low price point.
post #3782 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by trenz1 View Post


Since the c22 was the same price as a pair of the b22's, I was wondering if I could buy a second set of b22's and lay one on its side for the center, basically giving me a spare 22 for free. I have read many threads here saying a bookshelf center should be vertical for the best sound but that is not possible, and that MTM centers are a compromise. I even found this quote in a thread here:
The biggest problem with this plan is that you'll be giving up 3dB of sensitivity by going to the bs. That means it'll take twice as much power to hit the same level as the dedicated center speaker would have. That means hitting significant audible distortion that much sooner. For home theater, the center speaker is the last place I'd want to sacrifice sensitivity.

I can understand the desire to save a few bucks, but it's not without its penalty in this case. Besides, what would you ever do with that single spare speaker you'd be left with? When have you ever needed just one speaker?
post #3783 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

The biggest problem with this plan is that you'll be giving up 3dB of sensitivity by going to the bs. That means it'll take twice as much power to hit the same level as the dedicated center speaker would have. That means hitting significant audible distortion that much sooner. For home theater, the center speaker is the last place I'd want to sacrifice sensitivity.
I'm still learning so bear with me. I understand your point that the center has a 3db higher sensitivity but it seems that using three identical speakers for the fronts is a very popular setup here and that would mean all three speakers have the same sensitivity like i was planning. I do remember when I was setting up the cheap Yamahas that i had to increase the center in my receiver to get the volume good enough. Are you saying that people that use three indentical usually do the same? i just took a quick look at a few different speaker series off the top of my head (Klipsch,Polk,Paradigm} and there are some centers with matching sensitivity and others with higher

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

I can understand the desire to save a few bucks, but it's not without its penalty in this case. Besides, what would you ever do with that single spare speaker you'd be left with? When have you ever needed just one speaker.

I figured in case i blow a tweeter or there is some kind of defect I just pull it out of the closet and keep on going while waiting for warranty service.

With all that being said I think I will go with the c22 center. After reading the following paragraph by Gene DellaSala from audioholics, specifically the 2 highlighted sentences, there is almost never any off axis viewing and a dedicated center sounds like it would be good. Thanks

.
Quote:
The classic vertical MTM design has been popular for loudspeaker designs for a number of years and for good reasons. When vertically oriented, they do a great job of reducing horizontal lobing between the tweeter and midrange drivers thus producing a very smooth response. They also can produce more dynamic output than a conventional two-way design since they have two mid bass drivers handling the bandwidth instead of one. Some more upscale designs incorporate an additional pair of midrange drivers in a MMTMM arrangement to offer broader coverage and increased output capability.

With the advent of 5.1 surround sound, people quickly began looking for center channel speakers. Because of their low profile when oriented horizontally, MTM's became quite popular to use as dedicated center channels and were often times sold in sets of three (deemed LCRs) where the user would flip one on its side and place it directly under the display to be used for center channel duties. The results can be quite good provided the actual speaker is designed well, but there are limitations in off-axis performance that shouldn’t be ignored

.
post #3784 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Trenz, I find klipsch harsh as well so you are not alone on that.

The issue with MTM centers is that they are horizontal which gives the 4" mids the beaming and comb filtering characteristics of a woofer that is the total width of the 2 speakers. If you could put a b22 vertically it would be best in that it would match your L/Rs and would be better in terms of comb filtering and lobeing than the horizontal c22. If you could put the c22 vertically it would be better than the b22 vertically due to the extra clean power handling from the critical center channel.

A b22 on it's side is still not a bad solution. I wouldn't recommend it if you were using the towers for your mains as it would be out gunned so to speak. But it will match fine with the book shelf mains and have fewer dispersion issues than the c22. However, if you could get it vertical that would be better.

Having said all that, the c22 doesn't sound bad on it's side. I have mine vertical and the difference is virtually imperceptible.
+1
post #3785 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

The biggest problem with this plan is that you'll be giving up 3dB of sensitivity by going to the bs. That means it'll take twice as much power to hit the same level as the dedicated center speaker would have. That means hitting significant audible distortion that much sooner. For home theater, the center speaker is the last place I'd want to sacrifice sensitivity.

I can understand the desire to save a few bucks, but it's not without its penalty in this case. Besides, what would you ever do with that single spare speaker you'd be left with? When have you ever needed just one speaker?
The b's and c's have a different sensitivity? That's weird. Why would they do that? Especially when sold as a set. You want them all to have the same sensitivity. Do the towers and the c's atleast have the same?
post #3786 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by trenz1 View Post

I'm still learning so bear with me. I understand your point that the center has a 3db higher sensitivity but it seems that using three identical speakers for the fronts is a very popular setup here and that would mean all three speakers have the same sensitivity like i was planning. I do remember when I was setting up the cheap Yamahas that i had to increase the center in my receiver to get the volume good enough. Are you saying that people that use three indentical usually do the same.
Everybody has to adjust levels. It doesn't matter the configuration - room placement will always require some tweaking. Some people also bump up the center a little extra to improve dialog intelligibility. The nicer speakers you get and lower distortion you achieve, the less likely you'll be to find this necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

The b's and c's have a different sensitivity? That's weird. Why would they do that? Especially when sold as a set. You want them all to have the same sensitivity. Do the towers and the c's atleast have the same?
They have different sensitivity because the sensitivity is limited by the woofer. The tweeter is attenuated down to match it. The center has twice as many woofers working, so it's twice as efficient. As explained above, everybody has to adjust levels in any setup anyway. Matching sensitivity from one speaker to the next is not necessary.
post #3787 of 5316
Matching sensitivity is not necessary but it is best. You want to keep it within 3 anyway. Outside of that will lead to problems. So, by your logic, does that mean that the fs52 with 3 woofers also have a different sensitivity rating than the center and rears? If so, that is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing. I have towers with 3 woofers, a center with 2 woofers and rears that have 1 woofer. They all have the same sensitivity rating and are set at the same volume and stay at the same volume.
Edited by Bond 007 - 2/2/13 at 8:43pm
post #3788 of 5316
According to the specs, the towers are 87db, bs are 85 and the center is 88. But, the only sensitivity that matters is at the listening position. Typically the L/Rs are further from you than the center so the center is at an advantage anyway. The room plays a big role too, with first reflections adding to the energy of the signal as it arrives at the listener since no one is setting these up in half space or an anechoic chamber.

Getting a modern AVR with auto-calibration makes all of this moot as it will set delay and gain where it needs to be. Otherwise you need to get a DB meter and generate some pink noise to set levels properly.
post #3789 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

According to the specs, the towers are 87db, bs are 85 and the center is 88. But, the only sensitivity that matters is at the listening position. Typically the L/Rs are further from you than the center so the center is at an advantage anyway. The room plays a big role too, with first reflections adding to the energy of the signal as it arrives at the listener since no one is setting these up in half space or an anechoic chamber.

Getting a modern AVR with auto-calibration makes all of this moot as it will set delay and gain where it needs to be. Otherwise you need to get a DB meter and generate some pink noise to set levels properly.
Yes. It doesn't make it moot but it does make it somewhat manageable. While I still find that kind of strange it is keeping to the 3 dB that I mentioned earlier.
post #3790 of 5316
As a PSA, I see that BB has the BS22's on special for $89 this week. :-)
post #3791 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by trenz1 View Post

With all that being said I think I will go with the c22 center. After reading the following paragraph by Gene DellaSala from audioholics, specifically the 2 highlighted sentences, there is almost never any off axis viewing and a dedicated center sounds like it would be good. Thanks

.
Quote:
The classic vertical MTM design has been popular for loudspeaker designs for a number of years and for good reasons. When vertically oriented, they do a great job of reducing horizontal lobing between the tweeter and midrange drivers thus producing a very smooth response. They also can produce more dynamic output than a conventional two-way design since they have two mid bass drivers handling the bandwidth instead of one. Some more upscale designs incorporate an additional pair of midrange drivers in a MMTMM arrangement to offer broader coverage and increased output capability.

With the advent of 5.1 surround sound, people quickly began looking for center channel speakers. Because of their low profile when oriented horizontally, MTM's became quite popular to use as dedicated center channels and were often times sold in sets of three (deemed LCRs) where the user would flip one on its side and place it directly under the display to be used for center channel duties. The results can be quite good provided the actual speaker is designed well, but there are limitations in off-axis performance that shouldn’t be ignored

.

Gene often writes articles to as apologia for what his advertisers sell. (His "reference" system uses an overpriced toppled MMTMM.) His travesty cherry-picking data to defend the toppled-MTM is one of those that should simply be ignored.
post #3792 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Gene often writes articles to as apologia for what his advertisers sell. (His "reference" system uses an overpriced toppled MMTMM.) His travesty cherry-picking data to defend the toppled-MTM is one of those that should simply be ignored.
That being said, do you think that there are no advantages to a vertical center channel in general? I understand that this may be more theory than practical in most cases? And I don't want to hijack this thread but you seem to know a lot and I would be interested in your brief observations.
post #3793 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Gene often writes articles to as apologia for what his advertisers sell. (His "reference" system uses an overpriced toppled MMTMM.) His travesty cherry-picking data to defend the toppled-MTM is one of those that should simply be ignored.

well i wont be using a vertical speaker thats for sure. The 7 inch height of the center (or sideways bookshelf) is the max i am going. i still have 2 weeks left on the BB return so I guess I can still think about it but pretty sure i will stick with the c22. I would have to buy another set of 22's. and do the comparisons. I already have to return the Klipsch speakers and the Pioneer sw-8mk2 subwoofer which I found a little too weak. I dont want to get black listed by BB for excessive returns frown.gif
post #3794 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

That being said, do you think that there are no advantages to a vertical center channel in general? I understand that this may be more theory than practical in most cases? And I don't want to hijack this thread but you seem to know a lot and I would be interested in your brief observations.

I always prefer the front three speakers to be identical: same speaker, in the same orientation, at the same height. Everything else is flawed to some degree. With a few speakers using concentric drivers for midrange and treble, I've not heard that much difference between a horizontal and vertical speaker. But even for instance the Revel Ultima center channel sounds too different from their Salon2 or Studio2 speakers to be usable with them. And that's a very flagship-level speaker from one of the top 3-4 speaker design teams in the world! (IMO, the Harman folks, Andrew Jones' team at TAD and Pioneer, and Mark Booth's group at KEF are the current "best of the best.")
Quote:
Originally Posted by trenz1 View Post

well i wont be using a vertical speaker thats for sure. The 7 inch height of the center (or sideways bookshelf) is the max i am going. i still have 2 weeks left on the BB return so I guess I can still think about it but pretty sure i will stick with the c22. I would have to buy another set of 22's. and do the comparisons. I already have to return the Klipsch speakers and the Pioneer sw-8mk2 subwoofer which I found a little too weak. I dont want to get black listed by BB for excessive returns frown.gif

IMO, the best solution for you would be to buy two pairs of KEF Q100s, and keep one speaker in storage. The "matching" center channel...well, doesn't. But the Q100 isn't that impacted by flipping it on its side, due to the concentric driver. Unless it's in a tunnel or inside a cabinet or something. In that case, frankly, phantom center is much better than any hard center.
post #3795 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I always prefer the front three speakers to be identical: same speaker, in the same orientation, at the same height. Everything else is flawed to some degree. With a few speakers using concentric drivers for midrange and treble, I've not heard that much difference between a horizontal and vertical speaker. But even for instance the Revel Ultima center channel sounds too different from their Salon2 or Studio2 speakers to be usable with them. And that's a very flagship-level speaker from one of the top 3-4 speaker design teams in the world! (IMO, the Harman folks, Andrew Jones' team at TAD and Pioneer, and Mark Booth's group at KEF are the current "best of the best.").
Thanks. That confirms what I have heard from just about every expert.
post #3796 of 5316
Well, Best Buy had the entire line on sale beginning today, so I went and picked up the bookshelf and center speakers - I got them hooked up and I have to admit, the difference between them and my old BIC's is night and day. They're clearer, the separation is much more pronounced, the base response is better/tighter than the BIC's, and yes, the soundstage is better. All in all, an excellent choice...I'm glad I pulled the trigger on 'em.

Just need to decide what I'm going to do - another set of bookshelf's, or 2 more centers for front L/R, or just get the towers...decisions, decisions.
post #3797 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfbreedinkc View Post

Well, Best Buy had the entire line on sale beginning today, so I went and picked up the bookshelf and center speakers - I got them hooked up and I have to admit, the difference between them and my old BIC's is night and day. They're clearer, the separation is much more pronounced, the base response is better/tighter than the BIC's, and yes, the soundstage is better. All in all, an excellent choice...I'm glad I pulled the trigger on 'em.

Just need to decide what I'm going to do - another set of bookshelf's, or 2 more centers for front L/R, or just get the towers...decisions, decisions.
What Bics did you have?
post #3798 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by trenz1 View Post

i bought a pair of the 22's to use as the fronts in my small setup in a spare bedroom.I really like them coming from a Yamaha set that was $100 for the whole 5.1 package. I am keeping the Yamahas for the rears since they are already installed in the upper rear corners of the room. They are 6 ohms like the 22's and sound fine.

My question concerns the c22 center which I also picked up but have not installed yet.I played around going back and forth with a phantom center and using the Yamaha center that is currently installed. As crappy as the Yamaha is I still preferred a center, even though the phantom was pretty darn good. I can imagine how good the c22 will sound. On to my question.

Since the c22 was the same price as a pair of the b22's, I was wondering if I could buy a second set of b22's and lay one on its side for the center, basically giving me a spare 22 for free. I have read many threads here saying a bookshelf center should be vertical for the best sound but that is not possible, and that MTM centers are a compromise. I even found this quote in a thread here:

Depending upon the speaker and it's exact design, some bookshelf speakers CAN be successfully oriented horizontally for use as center speakers, too, and still outperform their comparable MTM center speaker counterpart

I am the only one to watch movies here. 90% of the time I sit dead center 5 ft away and the other 10% I sit 8 ft away 45 degrees to the right. I think the c22 would be aesthetically more pleasing but price and sound quality trumps that.

I was trying to understand beaming and lobing that i was reading at the blu-ray forums. Since I prefer a more treble tone than a bass tone (though I tried the Klipsch kb-22's this week also and found them too harsh even though I assumed I would like them better) I think having only one mid might be better for my taste. What do you guys think? Thanks

Since you have the Yamahas, maybe try 4 of them with one of your BS-21s acting as the center for a bit, see how you like the BS-21 laid horizontal in terms of sound and your listening preferences.

I am currently using three center channel C21 speakers for my front left/center/right home theater setup. But I also have some BS-21s in another application. To compare, I tested a C21 and a BS-21, by connecting one speaker to the left and other to the right channel on one of my receivers in a stereo setup. I used the A/B switch on the receiver to compare the sound, flipping between the C21 and BS-21. As expected, I did find the C21 was a bit louder at the same volume knob setting, likely due to the greater rated sensitivity. I tried compensating for the loudness difference by manually adjusting the volume up/down while switching A/B. My impression - the C21 generally produced a more open and fuller sound. Not a huge difference, but I ended up going the three C21 route rather than two BS-21 single C21 config.

For the R/L rear surrounds, I am also using some Yamaha speakers, a pair of the NS-AP7900MBL. Not all that great of a match "sound wise" with the front C21s, but they fit nicely due to the small size and the price was right. Could always put the BS-21s back there someday.
post #3799 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Matching sensitivity is not necessary but it is best. You want to keep it within 3 anyway. Outside of that will lead to problems. So, by your logic, does that mean that the fs52 with 3 woofers also have a different sensitivity rating than the center and rears? If so, that is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing. I have towers with 3 woofers, a center with 2 woofers and rears that have 1 woofer. They all have the same sensitivity rating and are set at the same volume and stay at the same volume.
The FS is not configured as a simple 2 way like the BS and CS are. Obviously simple comparisons will no longer apply. There are many different ways to design a crossover, and it's easy to find many examples that do not utilize the full potential sensitivity benefits of a second driver. The speakers we were discussing happen to be a nice, clean example of a crossover design that does take advantage of the full benefit.

Please explain your reasoning for the 3dB limit on rated sensitivity mismatch.
post #3800 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

The FS is not configured as a simple 2 way like the BS and CS are. Obviously simple comparisons will no longer apply. There are many different ways to design a crossover, and it's easy to find many examples that do not utilize the full potential sensitivity benefits of a second driver. The speakers we were discussing happen to be a nice, clean example of a crossover design that does take advantage of the full benefit.

Please explain your reasoning for the 3dB limit on rated sensitivity mismatch.
Nothing technical here. I am not an engineer. From years of buying and selling personal electronics that has always seemed to be a reasonable limit. If you have 87dB in the front, a center with 98dB and surrounds with 92dB then it leads to a headache. I understand that modern avr will compensate to some extent but there was no such thing when I was getting started and it still seems like a bad idea imo.
post #3801 of 5316
Bond007 - What Bics did you have?

The DV62si's and the old style DV62clr (the newer version is a much smaller cabinet). Think I'm going to put them up for sale, so if anyone is in the KC area and is interested, let me know.
post #3802 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfbreedinkc View Post

Bond007 - What Bics did you have?

The DV62si's and the old style DV62clr (the newer version is a much smaller cabinet). Think I'm going to put them up for sale, so if anyone is in the KC area and is interested, let me know.
Only the pl26 center. The rest of my 7.1 are Klipsch. I just couldn't bring myself to spend $250 on a center when I know the Bics are similar and I mostly listen to music anyway.
Edited by Bond 007 - 2/4/13 at 10:11am
post #3803 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Nothing technical here. I am not an engineer. From years of buying and selling personal electronics that has always seemed to be a reasonable limit. If you have 87dB in the front, a center with 98dB and surrounds with 92dB then it leads to a headache. I understand that modern avr will compensate to some extent but there was no such thing when I was getting started and it still seems like a bad idea imo.
Well yes, that combination without level setting would create a headache along with a lousy listening experience. But by the same token, a system set up with 7 identical speakers and not level matched will also create a lousy listening experience. Unless every speaker has identical boundary reinforcement and identical distance to the listener, they NEED to be level matched.

Maybe I just haven't been doing this stuff long enough, but I've never worked with a surround receiver that couldn't do this. I guess if that were the case you'd have to break out the soldering iron and resistors until you got it right. But even in that worst case, I can't see any reason for arbitrary rules on the level of sensitivity mismatch. With differences as drastic as the examples you mention, it's likely that there were pretty big fundamental differences between speakers that would have a much bigger effect on getting things to play well together. For 98dB, you're almost certainly dealing with compression drivers, horn loading, et cetera.
post #3804 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfbreedinkc View Post

2 more centers for front L/R,

I decided to keep the c22 and now i am deciding if i should do this. I am using the bs-22's for front and the c22 looks huge compared to them. I am using these in a 12x11 bedroom with a 32inch tv.
Standing two more c22's on end as the L/R would look much more symetrical. Has anyone done this with these speakers. I think I have seen other people on the forums use 3 centers as L/R/C. how does it sound adding two more mids to the front?
post #3805 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by trenz1 View Post

I decided to keep the c22 and now i am deciding if i should do this. I am using the bs-22's for front and the c22 looks huge compared to them. I am using these in a 12x11 bedroom with a 32inch tv.
Standing two more c22's on end as the L/R would look much more symetrical. Has anyone done this with these speakers. I think I have seen other people on the forums use 3 centers as L/R/C. how does it sound adding two more mids to the front?
Check post #158. The short answer is that they'll work great this way. As long as you're using a subwoofer, they should perform better than the bs would.
post #3806 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Check post #158. The short answer is that they'll work great this way. As long as you're using a subwoofer, they should perform better than the bs would.
thanks, thats the answer i was hoping for, from the man himself.
post #3807 of 5316
Can anyone chime in and let me know if you can place anything on top of the SP-C22 center channel? I want to buy these speakers but I need to be able to put my backlight on top of that center speaker. It looks mighty curved so I don't think it's possible, Or maybe I could put a single bookshelf speaker in the middle?
post #3808 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLO View Post

Can anyone chime in and let me know if you can place anything on top of the SP-C22 center channel? I want to buy these speakers but I need to be able to put my backlight on top of that center speaker. It looks mighty curved so I don't think it's possible, Or maybe I could put a single bookshelf speaker in the middle?

It's curved on both the top/bottom, but they give you some curved rubber "feet" for the bottom. Perhaps you could contact Pioneer and inquire about another set of curved feet for the top.
post #3809 of 5316
Quote:
Originally Posted by superorb View Post

It's curved on both the top/bottom, but they give you some curved rubber "feet" for the bottom. Perhaps you could contact Pioneer and inquire about another set of curved feet for the top.

Well I just pulled the trigger on 3 pair of the bookshelves on the BB special. I'll be curious to see how they stack up to my current cheap-o setup: 4 sony ss-mb350h and the matching center. Hope they sound better.
post #3810 of 5316
So...I got my BS22/C22 fronts and BS21 sides finally setup completely - and using the thicker speaker wire from I grabbed from Monoprice (is it ok to name them?) instead of the think 18-20 gauge crap I had from my old HTIB setup - and...holy god damn. I mean...wow. For the first time in a LONG time I actually sat and just listened to music for a good half hour...and wow. I'm hearing things I never heard before - distinct hits on instruments, percussion hits I never realized I should hear, actual pick hits....just wow.

Gotta say...I know these aren't 'the best of the best' but...these really improved my listening experience a ton. Thanks to everyone both on this thread and others that gave advice and led me to these. Definitely worth the money and a HUGE improvement over what I had!
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