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Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 130

post #3871 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

I think the suggestion the Audioholics reviewer made...that Pioneer should give him a larger budget to produce a system one step up...is a great one. A great meal for every budget.

Agreed. He built a great $500 system. I was imagining, too, what he could with a $1000 to $1200 system.

Wouldn't surprise me if this is not already happening, either. Seems like Jones got to make the revisions to the design he wanted with phase 2. There would probably be diminishing returns on producing a phase 3. But a system to compete at a higher price point that they could pair up with the Pioneer Elite series of receivers? Seems like a market penetration opportunity for Pioneer that would be hard to ignore. I'll be curious to see what happens two or three years from now smile.gif
post #3872 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Agreed. He built a great $500 system. I was imagining, too, what he could with a $1000 to $1200 system.

Wouldn't surprise me if this is not already happening, either. Seems like Jones got to make the revisions to the design he wanted with phase 2. There would probably be diminishing returns on producing a phase 3. But a system to compete at a higher price point that they could pair up with the Pioneer Elite series of receivers? Seems like a market penetration opportunity for Pioneer that would be hard to ignore. I'll be curious to see what happens two or three years from now smile.gif

I would like to see a 3.1 system for $1500.
post #3873 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

It's clear that Andrew Jones is an extraordinarily gifted designer, and a gracious man to boot.

I think the suggestion the Audioholics reviewer made...that Pioneer should give him a larger budget to produce a system one step up...is a great one. A great meal for every budget..

Pioneer has speakers at those price-points in other markets. Some of them even use the concentric drivers for which Mr. Jones is (justly) best known. Here's a bookshelf model:


(I've not heard that model or other Pioneer speakers that are not sold in the US, so I'm not commenting as to performance. Only as to existence.)

Pioneer must not think they can sell speakers broadly here. Keep in mind that the EX line appeared to be a dismal failure for them, with the S-1EX from late last decade still available for half off from Audio Video Logic, and the (amazingly good) Pioneer EX in-walls going for less than a dime to the dollar of MSRP on Woot. Some of that was timing - new expensive speakers from an unknown in that space in 2008-9 - but Americans are pretty snobby about brand. It's no wonder to me that the new Pioneer S-1EX is the 3x as expensive TAD Evolution One. (I'm sure the E1's cabinet is more expensive to make, but the drive-units are clear evolutions of the S-1EX's.)
post #3874 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by veedo View Post

You know, I have the older bs21s and recently picked up the bs22s to try out after hearing the rave reviews. I think I like the 21s better also, but I am using them near field on a computer desk so maybe that's why. The 21s do seem more mellow and laid back to me, but maybe not as detailed as the 22s? The extra detail could just be me hearing the 22s brighter tweeter. I still have some listening to do, but so far the 22s seem to have too much tweeter for my near field setup. Either set seems to image about the same for me, voices are front and center.

While certainly a minority viewpoint around here, I am in agreement with your assessment.

At one time, I had the 21's, 41's, and 22's and spent several weeks periodically going back and forth in my 2.1 setup (I sit about 11 feet back dead nuts at the top of the triangle).

I always kept coming back to the 21's. I thought the 22's were too bright for my tastes, and I thought the 21's gave a more solid center image vs. the 41's. I even preferred the 21's (when mated to a quality sub.....NHT Evolution) to be superior to some NHT Classics (C3, C2, AZ) and PSB's (Alpha B1's) I have or had.

The 21's do something magic in my rig, in my room, and with my ears. :-)

Brian
post #3875 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Agreed. He built a great $500 system. I was imagining, too, what he could with a $1000 to $1200 system.

Wouldn't surprise me if this is not already happening, either. Seems like Jones got to make the revisions to the design he wanted with phase 2. There would probably be diminishing returns on producing a phase 3. But a system to compete at a higher price point that they could pair up with the Pioneer Elite series of receivers? Seems like a market penetration opportunity for Pioneer that would be hard to ignore. I'll be curious to see what happens two or three years from now smile.gif

Even though the earlier poster (who posted valuable info about other Jones' speakers...not sold in US), Pioneer has started to build a following and good rep about Andrew Jones affordable speakers. Building on this reputation they could likely increase market share by coming out with stunning speakers at a somewhat higher price point, but still affordable compared with other brands.

The focus on quality drivers and materials as opposed to surface aesthetics is really smart, and Jones is such a gifted designer that I'll bet he and Pioneer could come up with something really compelling at the next tier up. Peoples' perception about branding can change. Look at Lucky Goldstar's transformation to LG, now the pioneer in OLED TV.

As I said, a good meal at every budget!
post #3876 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

It's clear that Andrew Jones is an extraordinarily gifted designer.
No offense to Andrew, but not really. He's a very good designer, but there are many of those about. What they point out isn't so much how good Andrew is or how good the components they use are as they do how poorly designed and cheaply made most other speakers in this price range are.
post #3877 of 5377
post #3878 of 5377
Dropped the hammer on a complete set of these from Pioneer today. Will be pairing them with an Onkyo NR818 as soon as the price comes within my range. Can't wait. smile.gif
post #3879 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by molachai View Post

Dropped the hammer on a complete set of these from Pioneer today. Will be pairing them with an Onkyo NR818 as soon as the price comes within my range. Can't wait. smile.gif

If by "complete set" you mean the sub, too, you'd get better performance upgrading the sub and getting a cheaper receiver.
post #3880 of 5377
I have the BS22 and C22 for about 10 days now. these replaced my JBL studio 1 and Yamaha center (really old natural series, still made in Japan)

They're really something, filled my 16x16x14room really well. Its clear and defined without the need of being loud.

I also took advantage of a sale and got a Deftech prosub 800 that replaced a JBL es250 12inch sub which i had to rid of due to WAF.
My choice of sub can't be any thing bigger than 8in. I'm in a NYC apartment and the listening distance is about 7ft so i figure it should be enough.
The sub was OK. It sure can put out for a little sub, to a point where the whole box would rattle. I think the cabinet design is not paired well with the woofers power.

Anyways, not feeling impressed. I went back to BB and got the pioneer sub mk2 at 1/3 the cost of the prosub and you know what? For all the bashing that the sub got on the forum, its not all that bad! Blends well with both music and movies.

I can understand the need for a bigger size sub to fill the room if you have a large listening area or the need to rattle couch.... But here is the thing, I tested both sub side by side, is the prosub better? Yes but is it worth 3 times the price? probably not. In addition, a 8inch sub isn't something I would like to invest for the long run.

Just like the speakers, are there better sub out there? sure, but usually at the cost of the entire pioneer setup. i thought about getting the svs sb1000 to pair. Then i remembered why i chose the pioneer AJ speaker over the B&Ws, budget without the budget sound!

if i want to spend $500 on a sub, why wouldn't i spend more on my main? keep this perspective and you will realized there isn't a need to design your own network of speakers/subs, Andrew Jones has already done the homework for you.
Edited by webada - 3/9/13 at 7:45pm
post #3881 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by webada View Post

so i have the BS22 and C22 for about 10 days now. these replaced my JBL studio 1 and Yamaha center (really old natural series, still made in Japan) They're really something, filled my 16x16x14room really well. its clear and define without the need of being loud. so i also took advantage of a sale and got a deftech prosub 800 that replaced a JBL es250 12inch sub which i had to rid of due to WAF. my choice of sub can't be any thing bigger than 8in. the listening distance is about 7ft so i figurenit should be enough. The sub didn't impress me. It sure can put out for a little sub, to a point where the whole box would rattle. I think the cabinet design is not paired well with the woofers power.

anyways, i went back to bb and got the pioneer sub mk2 at 1/3 the cost of the prosub and you know what? for all the bashing that the sub got on the forum, its not all that bad! blends well with both music and movies.

here is the thing, just like the speakers, are there better sub out there? sure, but usually at the cost of the entire pioneer system. i thought about getting the svs sb1000 to pair. Then i remembered why i chose the pioneer AJ speaker over the B&Ws, budget!
if i want to spend $500 on a sub, why wouldn't i spend more on my main? keep this perspective and you will realized there isn't a need to match your own network, Andrew Jones has already done the homework for you.

The problem with the Pioneer sub is not that it can't sound fairly good. It's that it doesn't have much max output. So depending on how loud someone runs their system, how far away someone sits, and how big their room is, might not be enough. And there are probably people here running it full tilt, maxed out, which might not be good for the life of the sub. Then the SVS subs also have better low frequency extension.

As for spending more on your mains, that was the point of Audioholics review. You don't need to smile.gif
post #3882 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

The problem with the Pioneer sub is not that it can't sound fairly good. It's that it doesn't have much max output. So depending on how loud someone runs their system, how far away someone sits, and how big their room is, might not be enough. And there are probably people here running it full tilt, maxed out, which might not be good for the life of the sub. Then the SVS subs also have better low frequency extension.

As for spending more on your mains, that was the point of Audioholics review. You don't need to smile.gif

Haha, yes, totally agree with your statement. I added some context to my original post as you replied. Just trying to put some justice to the sub. I'm living in a NYC apartment, there isn't a need for a full blast for me.

As for low frequency extension, I pulled out my old Chesky stereo surround sound setup disc and ran through the SUB tracks. The spec on the sub 38hz-150hz is a very honest one (not that its impressive to begin with) The tonal started to disappear around 35hz (volume nob in mid).
post #3883 of 5377
What is the difference between the SP-FS51 and the newer SP-FS52's? Any major improvements? Guy near me has the 51s for a good price but I'm trying to determine whether it would be worth the extra $75 for the new ones.
post #3884 of 5377
the 52's sound better, are 4" taller and you can actually remove the grilles.
post #3885 of 5377
I'm in the minority. I don't like the look of the removable grills. I like the metal circles that don't attract the attention of kids.
post #3886 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

If by "complete set" you mean the sub, too, you'd get better performance upgrading the sub and getting a cheaper receiver.

I am working on this same idea...

The sub didn't have the punch I was looking for...atleast not in the room I was listening in. My HTIB Sony 8" dwarves it in comparison.
I've thought about getting two of the Pioneer subs or dropping the sub and going with a better (1) sub. I listened to the Polk PSW125...and it really shook me compared to the Pioneer.

I am trying to find the Pioneer Elite VSX-53 but if I can't it will be pushed by the Denon 1913.

Any suggestions on the sub replacement vs two subs conversation?
post #3887 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

I am working on this same idea...

The sub didn't have the punch I was looking for...atleast not in the room I was listening in. My HTIB Sony 8" dwarves it in comparison.
I've thought about getting two of the Pioneer subs or dropping the sub and going with a better (1) sub. I listened to the Polk PSW125...and it really shook me compared to the Pioneer.

I am trying to find the Pioneer Elite VSX-53 but if I can't it will be pushed by the Denon 1913.

Any suggestions on the sub replacement vs two subs conversation?

How much are you looking to spend on a sub replacement? Two of the Pioneer subs may give you a more even bass response in your room, but you will still not have much output below 35Hz or so.
post #3888 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

the 52's sound better, are 4" taller and you can actually remove the grilles.

Significantly better? I don't really care about the grill look much. The guy has a custom built stand to make them sit higher too so that should be an issue. Hmm.
post #3889 of 5377
Significantly better will be up to the listener. I know if given the choice I'd take the new 52's.

If the 51's with the stands work better for your budget then get those, I'm sure you'll be happy with them.
post #3890 of 5377
can you bring them home and test it out without fully committing? i always recommend folks to get from places where return policy is liberal. just because it sounds good at the dealers, it doesn't mean you will like them at home.
post #3891 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

How much are you looking to spend on a sub replacement? Two of the Pioneer subs may give you a more even bass response in your room, but you will still not have much output below 35Hz or so.
I could spend up to 300 or so for a replacement sub. Also not very sure what I'd be missing out on under 35Hz
post #3892 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

I could spend up to 300 or so for a replacement sub. Also not very sure what I'd be missing out on under 35Hz

At $300 budget for a sub, I would recommend the Klipsch RW-12D when it is on sale on www.newegg.com for $299.99.
post #3893 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

At $300 budget for a sub, I would recommend the Klipsch RW-12D when it is on sale on www.newegg.com for $299.99.

I agree with this.

Also, you're missing out on A LOT if you're only getting usable output down to 35Hz or so. You'll know what I mean if you pick up the Klispch RW-12D. It will probably blow you away.
post #3894 of 5377
8-12" subs are weak sauce. I'm running 4 15's and 2KW for subs with my pioneers. I've found it to be a good match in terms of output in my 1200 cu ft room. They both run out of headroom at about the same point and I've got nice flat response down to the teens below which my meter no longer can be trusted. wink.gif

I highly recommend a multi-sub approach.
post #3895 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

8-12" subs are weak sauce. I'm running 4 15's and 2KW for subs with my pioneers. I've found it to be a good match in terms of output in my 1200 cu ft room. They both run out of headroom at about the same point and I've got nice flat response down to the teens below which my meter no longer can be trusted. wink.gif

I highly recommend a multi-sub approach.

For $300?

Also, I have to go easy on the gain with my 18" sub as it overpowers my Pioneer's pretty easily. I typically run about 60% power to my sub so that it blends evenly.
post #3896 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

For $300?

Also, I have to go easy on the gain with my 18" sub as it overpowers my Pioneer's pretty easily. I typically run about 60% power to my sub so that it blends evenly.

Of course not for $300. I'm trying to give an idea of what it takes to keep up with the mains. I've got about $1k in the LFE channel.

I keep my LFE channel 6db hot. 2 15's or 1 18 would be enough if not running hot, but everyone runs their subs hot. It's also a sealed setup that is eq'ed flat which eats up a lot of headroom.
post #3897 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Of course not for $300. I'm trying to give an idea of what it takes to keep up with the mains. I've got about $1k in the LFE channel.

I keep my LFE channel 6db hot. 2 15's or 1 18 would be enough if not running hot, but everyone runs their subs hot. It's also a sealed setup that is eq'ed flat which eats up a lot of headroom.

I just meant that his budget was $300. Also that while you think it takes as much bass as you have to match the Pioneers, it doesn't. The distortion gets pretty rough if you really try to crank up the Pioneers. But you probably can't hear it due to all the bass you have. lol.

Crank the Pioneer's with your subs off and tell me how great they sound at high levels. Now go back with your subs and tell me if you don't still notice the distortion and lack of clarity from your mains.

Or don't. Because I did this and it set me on a path to upgrade all of my speakers.
post #3898 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

8-12" subs are weak sauce. I'm running 4 15's and 2KW for subs with my pioneers. I've found it to be a good match in terms of output in my 1200 cu ft room. They both run out of headroom at about the same point and I've got nice flat response down to the teens below which my meter no longer can be trusted. wink.gif

I highly recommend a multi-sub approach.

And when asked for advice on which economy car to purchase do you often recommend a Veyron?
post #3899 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

8-12" subs are weak sauce. I'm running 4 15's and 2KW for subs with my pioneers. I've found it to be a good match in terms of output in my 1200 cu ft room. They both run out of headroom at about the same point and I've got nice flat response down to the teens below which my meter no longer can be trusted. wink.gif

I highly recommend a multi-sub approach.

4x 15" in a 1200cu ft room and you say they're balanced with these tiny Pioneers?
post #3900 of 5377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

I just meant that his budget was $300. Also that while you think it takes as much bass as you have to match the Pioneers, it doesn't. The distortion gets pretty rough if you really try to crank up the Pioneers. But you probably can't hear it due to all the bass you have. lol.

Crank the Pioneer's with your subs off and tell me how great they sound at high levels. Now go back with your subs and tell me if you don't still notice the distortion and lack of clarity from your mains.

Or don't. Because I did this and it set me on a path to upgrade all of my speakers.

Distortion get's out of hand in the mains at the same point the sub amp clips as I alluded to in post 3900. Also, I'm not addressing a specific post with a budget of $300.

I thought I had plenty of bass with a ported 12 and 300w plate amp until I measured the response in the room. It was an eek.gif moment. Flat response takes lots of power and displacement.

RE the $300 budget: The Klipsch 12 is a good buy if budget is limited to $300 and no DIY skills are available. But, it won't get you infrasonic and it won't be flat response across the listening position. Also, that same $300 would buy 2 nice 12" drivers and a 700w pro amp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

And when asked for advice on which economy car to purchase do you often recommend a Veyron?

I hate car analogies. I've had good luck with Toyota products though. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGMasta View Post

4x 15" in a 1200cu ft room and you say they're balanced with these tiny Pioneers?

Absolutely.
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