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Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 131

post #3901 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by molachai View Post

Dropped the hammer on a complete set of these from Pioneer today. Will be pairing them with an Onkyo NR818 as soon as the price comes within my range. Can't wait. smile.gif

Any update on your thoughts on this setup? I was thinking of doing the same with an Onkyo NR717 but am a bit concerned the andrew jones floor standing and bookshelf will be too underpowered in my 23 x 23 x 10 foot height living room.

They get such good reviews that I was tempted. My other alternative is either all Mordaunt shorts or the infinity P363/C251 combo.

I currently have some 100 watt old infinity kappa 5.1 speakers and SB-1 sub that do just fine in the room but am wanting to upgrade my system.

I'd love some feedback from the original poster on how the Andrew Jones set is working out for him and also feedback on the alternatives above from the group!

Thanks
post #3902 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

I hate car analogies. I've had good luck with Toyota products though. wink.gif

Well, substitute what you like, then. Here are some options:

Fast food place/The Four Seasons?

Day Trip/Hawaii?

Calculator/Core i7 system with 32 Gigs of RAM, Terabyte SSD and quad 25" IPS monitors?
post #3903 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

And when asked for advice on which economy car to purchase do you often recommend a Veyron?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Well, substitute what you like, then. Here are some options:

Fast food place/The Four Seasons?

Day Trip/Hawaii?

Calculator/Core i7 system with 32 Gigs of RAM, Terabyte SSD and quad 25" IPS monitors?

Well, since I wasn't specifically addressing the $300 budget question I don't see how any of those relate. Had I quoted that post and then suggested a $1000 DIY setup you would have a point.
post #3904 of 5336
I get what you're saying, you didn't quote my post, but you did reply to it. Unless you're saying that you had an itch to post that 8-12" subs are weak sauce just to brag about your setup.

I've been in dbdrag car audio before...when I was 16 years old and had a bench on the back of my honda accord. There is no way I'd want that skull crushing amount of bass in my home.

I don't understand flat response or headroom and honestly...just want the sub to shake me more than the 8" HTIB Sony I have at the house now. The audio will be used for video games and movies, almost no music (other than a little dubstep while vacuuming) will be played.

Thank you for the recommendations of the Klipsch. Are there any recommended clips I should listen to find the sub 35Mz range we're discussing?
post #3905 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

Thank you for the recommendations of the Klipsch. Are there any recommended clips I should listen to find the
sub 35Mz range we're discussing?

The deeper your sub digs, the more amazing the bass this will give you beginning at about 56 seconds. Sadly, it's hard to prove it to yourself until you hear it on something competent, then you will realize what you had been missing. On lesser systems you'll hear the harmonics but never the fundamentals.

For pure tones use this: http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_subwooferharmonicdistortion.php
Edited by JD in NJ - 3/12/13 at 4:35pm
post #3906 of 5336
Thanks.

Does anyone know if the snow scene on Art of Flight is sub 35Mz? Otherwise I can try to download this clip and see if someone will demo it for me. The Klipsch RW-12 will go sub 35Hz I take it?
post #3907 of 5336

I have a pair in my garage, Pioneer just release new speakers

post #3908 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonginator View Post

Any update on your thoughts on this setup? I was thinking of doing the same with an Onkyo NR717 but am a bit concerned the andrew jones floor standing and bookshelf will be too underpowered in my 23 x 23 x 10 foot height living room.

They get such good reviews that I was tempted. My other alternative is either all Mordaunt shorts or the infinity P363/C251 combo.

I currently have some 100 watt old infinity kappa 5.1 speakers and SB-1 sub that do just fine in the room but am wanting to upgrade my system.

I'd love some feedback from the original poster on how the Andrew Jones set is working out for him and also feedback on the alternatives above from the group!

Thanks

When it comes to finding out if this set will fill your room, that's a bit above my knowledge in the HT arena. My main focus on purchasing this was good quality, for a good price. There are many here that have the means to go higher in quality than I, but I just wanted something that would get me much better SQ than what I have now, plus (with the 818) give me the headroom that I would need when my wallet becomes fatter. wink.gif

The speakers arrived today (squee!) but I've yet to receive my NR818. I went with the 818 because of the number of HDMI inputs (thinking of grabbing both a PS4 and the as-unnanounced new XBOX this year) and the Audyssey MultiEQ XT32. I got a great deal through an authorized dealer and it should be here next week. My room is MUCH smaller than yours (13x11x7.5) so I'm pretty sure I'm not going to have issues. From what I've read though, a downside of this set is the sub...for larger rooms or more demanding ears it may not be enough. For my current set up, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be fine. I'm upgrading from a 6 year old Yamaha receiver (HTR-5930) and a 15+ year old set of Sony HITB speakers, so this is definitely a jump in tech and quality. I'll definitely report back once I've got it set up. Cheers!
post #3909 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

Congrats! You're gonna love them.

Come back to the forum and let us know how everything is working, if you can tear yourself away from them, that is!

Well, after waiting on delivery...and then learning I know little about connecting these things, then doing more research and waiting on another Amazon delivery of all cables (3 HDMI, 1 optical audio, and one inexpensive but solid sub cable) I finally got this all hooked up tonight! Unfortunately by the time I made the space and got it set up, my baby was asleep and not feeling well, so I didn't get to crank it up yet.

I have yet to go through the instructions or setup on my Yamaha 373 receiver, so this is just my impressions on turning it on, going through my PS3 for some music, and checking it out. I did feel like I had to really turn up the volume to get some of the sound to start to come out, but I think I still have enough room before I max out that I'll be able to have a satisfying home audio setup. The Speakers sound good! The center seems like it has more sound coming out from it that the L or R speakers do, not sure if that's normal or just because I haven't done any setup though. And that BIC 12 you guys recommend so much on here...I can already tell even at low volume that thing is a beast. At least to me. Wooden floors seem to make it even more awesome. Being a total home theater noobie, my only other question besides the speaker volumes is about the sub. I've read that crossover settings should be set as high as possible, and I assume the volume on the sub should be at about half, is that all correct?
post #3910 of 5336
Set the volume on the F12 in the middle and the crossover on the sub all the way up. Then run YPAO. Then set all speakers to small.
post #3911 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Set the volume on the F12 in the middle and the crossover on the sub all the way up. Then run YPAO. Then set all speakers to small.

+1
post #3912 of 5336
Hey everyone,

I was hoping to ask a couple questions about these speakers.

1) I have the entire set of the first phase of these speakers. I've considered replacing the bs21s with fs52s from the new line. I have a BIC F12 for my sub. Would this be a worthwhile venture?

2) if so, what do a pair of fs52s cost? I assume I won't find them for 100 a pair like I did with the fs51

(My receiver is a denon avr-1913)
post #3913 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by omg1337kkthx View Post

Hey everyone,

I was hoping to ask a couple questions about these speakers.

1) I have the entire set of the first phase of these speakers. I've considered replacing the bs21s with fs52s from the new line. I have a BIC F12 for my sub. Would this be a worthwhile venture?

2) if so, what do a pair of fs52s cost? I assume I won't find them for 100 a pair like I did with the fs51

(My receiver is a denon avr-1913)

No it wouldn't be a worthwhile venture.
post #3914 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by omg1337kkthx View Post

Hey everyone,

I was hoping to ask a couple questions about these speakers.

1) I have the entire set of the first phase of these speakers. I've considered replacing the bs21s with fs52s from the new line. I have a BIC F12 for my sub. Would this be a worthwhile venture?

2) if so, what do a pair of fs52s cost? I assume I won't find them for 100 a pair like I did with the fs51

(My receiver is a denon avr-1913)
A lot of people say 1st gen and 2nd gen dont sound the same so I wouldnt do it.
post #3915 of 5336
OK, so now that I've had a chance to do some reading on all things audio & home theater, here's my new update with these speakers (& the BIC 12). I was actually disappointed with my initial experiences with my new home theater. It was really, really bass heavy...low end-y, not sure how best to describe it. At low volumes I could hear the sound, but the sub would shake the whole room and audio seemed like it lacked everything but bass. This was even after I set speaker distances and change the Ohms setting to 6 from 8.

Then I ran the YAPO on the Yamaha. Night and day difference! Sounds like a home theater now with the sub only providing the extra punch and not rattling everything all the time. I must say, I was amazed at all the LFE contained in movies that you just don't hear without a sub. Notes would just disappear if I went back and forth between on and off. Can't wait to try out all the sound on various Blu Rays I own. I already fired up the beginning scene of "Star Trek", some of the first part of "Thor", and the fish tank tapping on the glass from "Finding Nemo". Can't wait to hear something like the podracing scene from Star Wars ep 1!

I am a bit worried about one thing. The YAPO made some really large changes. I was wondering if they might hurt the speakers in any way actually. It now has Front L at +8.5 db, Front R at +8.0 db, Center at +8.0 db, and the sub at -10.0 db (that's the limit it'll go down BTW). Is this OK?
post #3916 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

OK, so now that I've had a chance to do some reading on all things audio & home theater, here's my new update with these speakers (& the BIC 12). I was actually disappointed with my initial experiences with my new home theater. It was really, really bass heavy...low end-y, not sure how best to describe it. At low volumes I could hear the sound, but the sub would shake the whole room and audio seemed like it lacked everything but bass. This was even after I set speaker distances and change the Ohms setting to 6 from 8.

Then I ran the YAPO on the Yamaha. Night and day difference! Sounds like a home theater now with the sub only providing the extra punch and not rattling everything all the time. I must say, I was amazed at all the LFE contained in movies that you just don't hear without a sub. Notes would just disappear if I went back and forth between on and off. Can't wait to try out all the sound on various Blu Rays I own. I already fired up the beginning scene of "Star Trek", some of the first part of "Thor", and the fish tank tapping on the glass from "Finding Nemo". Can't wait to hear something like the podracing scene from Star Wars ep 1!

I am a bit worried about one thing. The YAPO made some really large changes. I was wondering if they might hurt the speakers in any way actually. It now has Front L at +8.5 db, Front R at +8.0 db, Center at +8.0 db, and the sub at -10.0 db (that's the limit it'll go down BTW). Is this OK?

It looks to me like you need to turn down the volume on your sub an re-run YPAO. The sub's output is being reduced quite a bit while the fronts are being boosted. I always think it is best to get everything as close to zero as possible.
post #3917 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by audit13 View Post

It looks to me like you need to turn down the volume on your sub an re-run YPAO. The sub's output is being reduced quite a bit while the fronts are being boosted. I always think it is best to get everything as close to zero as possible.
I agree but you dont want everything close to 0. Only the sub. The rest will take care of itself. And set the crossover to 80. Make sure all the speakers are set to small. Also set the crossover on the sub all the way up.
post #3918 of 5336
Thanks for the input. I was thinking along those lines already, but I wanted to get advice since I'm brand new at this still. I have the crossover on the receiver set to 80 already (I read this is the ideal setting for LFE in movies), crossover on the sub all the way up, and volume at half. I'll turn the volume down a notch and re-run.

Just finished playing parts of Star Wars Episode 1. Sounded awesome!

It does seem when watching blu rays that maybe the video is just a hair ahead of the sound, but it might just be me not used to the disconnect between dialogue coming out of something besides the TV now. When I turn on the TV speakers alongside these, I can hear a bit of the chorus-y effect that comes from them being just a hair different timing wise. I did read someone else had an issue like this that he solved with a total reset of the receiver.

Anyways, back to the topic of the thread, now that everything is just about set up correctly, I love the combo of these BS22's, Center, and the BIC 12. With the Yamaha at -20 db volume setting, it's more than enough to really kick ass in my small living room, and with room still to go even louder if I wanted too. (and I assume a more powerful receiver upgrade in the future could do even more with these speakers!) 505 bucks spent (tax included), and I can't imagine a HTIB sounding any better than this.
post #3919 of 5336
The tv sound and avr sound not being synced is common. The solution is to not listen to them both at the same time.
post #3920 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I agree but you dont want everything close to 0. Only the sub. The rest will take care of itself. And set the crossover to 80. Make sure all the speakers are set to small. Also set the crossover on the sub all the way up.

I believe it is best to apply as little equalization as possible and this is why I try to go get as close to zero as possible for all speakers, not just the sub. I use Anthem's ARC system for equalization and it's quite good.
post #3921 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

Thanks for the input. I was thinking along those lines already, but I wanted to get advice since I'm brand new at this still. I have the crossover on the receiver set to 80 already (I read this is the ideal setting for LFE in movies), crossover on the sub all the way up, and volume at half. I'll turn the volume down a notch and re-run.

Just finished playing parts of Star Wars Episode 1. Sounded awesome!

It does seem when watching blu rays that maybe the video is just a hair ahead of the sound, but it might just be me not used to the disconnect between dialogue coming out of something besides the TV now. When I turn on the TV speakers alongside these, I can hear a bit of the chorus-y effect that comes from them being just a hair different timing wise. I did read someone else had an issue like this that he solved with a total reset of the receiver.

Anyways, back to the topic of the thread, now that everything is just about set up correctly, I love the combo of these BS22's, Center, and the BIC 12. With the Yamaha at -20 db volume setting, it's more than enough to really kick ass in my small living room, and with room still to go even louder if I wanted too. (and I assume a more powerful receiver upgrade in the future could do even more with these speakers!) 505 bucks spent (tax included), and I can't imagine a HTIB sounding any better than this.

If the audio and video are out of sync when playing back through just your receiver and your receiver has a lip sync function, try adjusting the timing.
post #3922 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by audit13 View Post

I believe it is best to apply as little equalization as possible and this is why I try to go get as close to zero as possible for all speakers, not just the sub. I use Anthem's ARC system for equalization and it's quite good.
Makes sense. But I dont think omni009 is using that.
post #3923 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Makes sense. But I dont think omni009 is using that.

I think omni009 is using a Yamaha which uses YPAO.
post #3924 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by audit13 View Post

I think omni009 is using a Yamaha which uses YPAO.
My point exactly.
post #3925 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

My point exactly.

Others may disagree with me but I think it's best to have all speakers level-matched as closely as possible before using equalization, rather than relying on equalization to compensate and this the point I was trying to make.
post #3926 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by audit13 View Post

Others may disagree with me but I think it's best to have all speakers level-matched as closely as possible before using equalization, rather than relying on equalization to compensate and this the point I was trying to make.
Very well.
post #3927 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy* View Post

I get what you're saying, you didn't quote my post, but you did reply to it. Unless you're saying that you had an itch to post that 8-12" subs are weak sauce just to brag about your setup.

I've been in dbdrag car audio before...when I was 16 years old and had a bench on the back of my honda accord. There is no way I'd want that skull crushing amount of bass in my home.

I don't understand flat response or headroom and honestly...just want the sub to shake me more than the 8" HTIB Sony I have at the house now. The audio will be used for video games and movies, almost no music (other than a little dubstep while vacuuming) will be played.

Thank you for the recommendations of the Klipsch. Are there any recommended clips I should listen to find the sub 35Mz range we're discussing?

The question of subs to go with these speakers comes up often in this thread. Typically it is in the form of "should I buy the pioneer 8 or this other brand 12." My main points were:

1. neither can truly keep up with the fs52's at high volume without clipping the amp or pushing the driver outside of it's linear range. If you are after flat response down to the neither regions of human hearing it takes a lot more power and cone area than most think.
2. one sub is not enough. Plan on 2 to 4 subs. Don't believe me? Measure your response in your room. Most who think they have tons of bass with their single sub really have tons of extra energy in a narrow frequency band and poor response outside that band.
post #3928 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

The question of subs to go with these speakers comes up often in this thread. Typically it is in the form of "should I buy the pioneer 8 or this other brand 12." My main points were:

1. neither can truly keep up with the fs52's at high volume without clipping the amp or pushing the driver outside of it's linear range. If you are after flat response down to the neither regions of human hearing it takes a lot more power and cone area than most think.
2. one sub is not enough. Plan on 2 to 4 subs. Don't believe me? Measure your response in your room. Most who think they have tons of bass with their single sub really have tons of extra energy in a narrow frequency band and poor response outside that band.

This is just false. A Bic F12 or Polk PSW505 will start to give out the same time the Pioneer's do. The Pioneers, while great, aren't meant to be driven at really high volumes. Once you really start to push the Pioneers the sound quality begins to degrade rather quickly. You may not think so, but it's the truth. The Bic F12 starts to get distorted about the same time the Pioneers start to get distorted.

You sound like you really like bass. Nothing wrong with that, many people here are bass heads. But you can't make these broad generalizations based on opinion and pass it off as fact.
post #3929 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

This is just false. A Bic F12 or Polk PSW505 will start to give out the same time the Pioneer's do. The Pioneers, while great, aren't meant to be driven at really high volumes. Once you really start to push the Pioneers the sound quality begins to degrade rather quickly. You may not think so, but it's the truth. The Bic F12 starts to get distorted about the same time the Pioneers start to get distorted.

You sound like you really like bass. Nothing wrong with that, many people here are bass heads. But you can't make these broad generalizations based on opinion and pass it off as fact.

Really? Have you measured? Have you considered the effect of the room on your sound?

I don't have data for the F12, but the higher end Acoustech branded sub is tuned to 30hz and puts out most of it's energy at 40hz rolling off quickly above and below. Not exactly the smooth, flat response that buyers of the pioneers are after.

The pioneers are not capable of high spl, but they will do 6-10db below reference in a room powered by a typical receiver. If you are curious, the formula is:

DB@1m1w + 10Log(Receiver Power in W) - 20Log(Distance in ft *.3048) -105 + 4
85.75 + 10Log(120)-20Log(12*.3048)-105+4 = -6

105 being db at THX ref and +4 being aprox gain from room vs anecholic.
87db @ 2.83V and 6ohm = 85.75db @ 1 W
90 w @ 8 ohm = 26.83V
26.83V @ 6 ohm = 119.9W

And here is what 1 sub with no EQ looks like in my room:


And here is what multiple subs + delay + 2 bands of eq look like:

Edited by nograveconcern - 3/19/13 at 8:32am
post #3930 of 5336
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Really? Have you measured? Have you considered the effect of the room on your sound?

I don't have data for the F12, but the higher end Acoustech branded sub is tuned to 30hz and puts out most of it's energy at 40hz rolling off quickly above and below. Not exactly the smooth, flat response that buyers of the pioneers are after.

The pioneers are not capable of high spl, but they will do 6-10db below reference in a room powered by a typical receiver. If you are curious, the formula is:

DB@1m1w + 10Log(Receiver Power in W) - 20Log(Distance in ft *.3048) -105 + 4
85.75 + 10Log(120)-20Log(12*.3048)-105+4 = -6

105 being db at THX ref and +4 being aprox gain from room vs anecholic.
87db @ 2.83V and 6ohm = 85.75db @ 1 W
90 w @ 8 ohm = 26.83V
26.83V @ 6 ohm = 119.9W

I happen to agree with you on the idea of a single 12" sub being nowhere near enough to keep up with these speakers if you're after full range sound. But I don't think it's reasonable to assume that most looking at these speakers are going to target full range sound. Most are going to be happy with rolling off in the 35-40Hz range. Not because they want to, but because that's when they're going to hit the limits on the budget and/or time they're willing to put in on a subwoofer. It just comes with the price point. People that are serious enough about good sound to chase flat response down to 20Hz and lower aren't often looking at speakers in this price range. You (and I) are an exception.

Now on SPL. 6-10dB below reference on receiver power with these speakers sounds like a BIG stretch to me. Maybe that's possible at very close listening distances, but not at the 12ft you use in your calc. My seating distance is less than that, and the speakers create obvious distortion at -10dB on receiver power. I can get to -10dB pretty comfortably on external power, but definitely not -6dB.
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