Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 132

I happen to agree with you on the idea of a single 12" sub being nowhere near enough to keep up with these speakers if you're after full range sound. But I don't think it's reasonable to assume that most looking at these speakers are going to target full range sound. Most are going to be happy with rolling off in the 35-40Hz range. Not because they want to, but because that's when they're going to hit the limits on the budget and/or time they're willing to put in on a subwoofer. It just comes with the price point. People that are serious enough about good sound to chase flat response down to 20Hz and lower aren't often looking at speakers in this price range. You (and I) are an exception.

Now on SPL. 6-10dB below reference on receiver power with these speakers sounds like a BIG stretch to me. Maybe that's possible at very close listening distances, but not at the 12ft you use in your calc. My seating distance is less than that, and the speakers create obvious distortion at -10dB on receiver power. I can get to -10dB pretty comfortably on external power, but definitely not -6dB.

+1 But I disagree with both of you on one point. To say that one sub wont do it is too general a statement. One F12 certainly wont. But there are subs that will. But again you have made the good point of price.
Most people would be very happy with the Pioneers and a Kilpsch RW-12d. Despite all the impressive graphs and formulas.

It's just math. Now, if my formulas are wrong then I would like to know, but according to the math the receiver will be at very low distortion at those levels.

I would expect the low frequency drivers to distort badly if run full range at those levels. They are just a pair of 5.25" drivers after all. I don't hear any issues with the few clips I tested at -6 to -10db, but I'm crossing everything over at 80hz or above.

What drew me to these speakers in the first place was the clean, full range sound. I was prepared to spend 2-3 times as much, but the sibilance of the Klipsch and the scooped sound of the Polk offerings in that price range really turned me off.

There are single subs that would have the output. The would also have to have a built in active DSP system to produce a response flat enough to make me happy. You are talking $$$$. Much more than I have in my 4 15's and 2KW.

I agree that most people are happy with one BIC/Klipsch 12. Most people don't spend much time on forums like AVS either.
Edited by nograveconcern - 3/19/13 at 11:28am

Oh I agree, and I don't mean to knock the Pioneers at all. I bought them too after all! I'm just saying that my experiences do not align with your calculations.

I ran calculations of my own, and I think they're somewhere earlier in this thread. I didn't apply the 4dB room boost that you did. I also have doubts about any receiver power supply being able to deliver 120W into seven channels at the same time. Does common material really call for that? I don't know. But I do know that I experienced a big improvement when I moved half of my speakers to external power. I suspect that power compression distortion sets in on these speakers far below 120W anyway.

I'm not saying the Pioneers can't get nice and loud. Or that they aren't capable of getting 6db from reference. I'm talking about how loud these can go before the distortion becomes a bit much.

I will have to retract my statement about the F12 though. Thinking back on it, it wasn't enough to keep up with Pioneers, and the FS51's were able to produce a higher quality bass from 80Hz down to around 45Hz. I agree that the RW12-D would be a nice match for the Pioneers. It would do them much more justice than the F12 could.

The Pioneers are great speakers and do need a capable subwoofer. But, I upgraded from my F12 to a DIY sealed 18 and the weak point in my system quickly became the Pioneers. While my sub just keeps on pounding away, the Pioneers start to struggle and begin to lose the clarity they had at medium volume levels.

My personal experience with the distortion at semi-high volumes could be anecdotal, but I've had these speakers in a few different rooms now and it's always the same. Around the -30dB mark on my receiver the Pioneers just stop getting louder. Every notch higher on the volume just adds a bit more distortion in my setup.

What is your receiver?

Mine play clean much higher than that but I am using a Denon 4311 and only running 2 channels(music) or 5 channels (movies). My other 4 channels are externally powered.

I found the 4db in an online article. It's not meant to be exact, but there is more energy in a room than anacholic.

Your calculations earlier in the thread are what lead me to research those formulas.

The receiver cannot deliver 120w into 7 channels at the same time. Most do their max power into 2 channels at once. But, the front 2 are the ones that need to be able to produce the most power. The center carries the next highest levels. The surrounds are typically closer to the listener and carry much less signal content. 105db is a max value for peaks in the signal content also. Like the burst of sound at the beginning of an explosion. Most of the time everything is idling along at about 85db when playing at reference. With any sustained 120w signal power compression would be a major issue. What the max total power a receiver can produce from all 7 channels for an appreciable amount of time might be I cannot say.

Here's the thing. I'm not recommending listening at -6db for 2.5 hours. I'm saying that is the max the speakers are capable of (with a loud soundtrack). With that value in mind I want the max my subs are capable of to be the same, or Xdb higher if you run your subs Xdb hot. That way when I'm listening at -12db I know I have about 6db of headroom.

And just to clarify, my denon is rated at 90w @ 8 ohm. 120w @ 6 ohm is the voltage equivalent.

Wow. Either your receiver is exceptionally weak, your listening room is a stadium, or you are running dynamic volume with the fronts set to large/full.
Edited by nograveconcern - 3/21/13 at 5:25am

Hi. I recently ordered a pair of the FS52 towers out of curiousity to see what AJ had been able to produce for such a low price, and I was also interested in seeing whether they could benefit from a crossover mod that would still be affordable, but might not meet the budget contraints that Pioneer imposed on AJ. I've put in many hours since, and have a fairly simple mod that I like, and that costs about $30-$40/pr in parts(depending on capacitor quality). But--my opinion is not as interesting as that of current owners. So I'm looking for a current owner of the towers who would like to audition a pair of Beta mods and give me some feedback. I'm in Washington, D.C. and will pay shipping both ways if we're not talking LA or Seattle or Vancouver. The closer the better. Any guinea pigs out there?

Fry's is having a sale on the FS-52's and BS-22 speakers. Looks like In-store only.

What a great deal! Too bad its in store only but it makes sense. They couldnt afford to ship them at that price.

Signed up to say thanks. I've been eyeballing these speakers to start my system. I wish I had room for the floor standers, but the bookshelves should do me just fine once I find a sale this good on a sub!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078
Dont know what your budget is but this goes on sale about every 2 weeks for $279-299 and is probably the best deal going.

Many thanks for link. I'll keep an eye on that. My speaker research has been much easier than subwoofer research. Best deal is a key phrase to me though. My budget is pretty open, but you are spot on with that price. $200 - $300 is the range I was considering to be where diminishing returns set in for my needs. I don't have a giant room, and my goal is really to but together a solid bang-for-the-buck system with low/mid end stuff that really outshines its pricetag. These BS22 fit the bill perfectly, and the advice around here seems to be, "Don't skimp on the sub!"

You can pick up the Premier Acoustic PA-150 for $349 shipped if you make an offer through their website.

The Klipsch RW-12D usually goes on sale very month for $289.99 to $299.99.

get the dayton 1200 sub.

Newegg has the Polk Audio PSW505 on sale for $189.99 with promo code Polk26. I'm actually thinking about buying one, but I'm not sure how it will pair with my RW-12D.

One person even said that it's an upgrade from the Polk Audio PSW505, and if there is any merit to that statement, then the SUB-1200 would seem to be quite the bargain!

I wonder if it hits harder (more output) or sounds better? I thought the PSW505 does a pretty good job for a $200 sub (when on sale), but if the Dayton is even close, certainly seems like the bargain.
The impression that I got from reading the reviews was that the Dayton hits harder and maybe could get louder. In my experience, the SUB-120 (very similar previous version) does fine in small rooms (even the little SUB-80 was pretty good); I haven't tested it in larger rooms. It digs pretty deep, albeit not quite as deep as the F12, come to think of it (much depends on the room, so who knows?). The PSW505 reportedly does not dig as deep as either of them.

The RW12 is a better sub than the Bic F12 and the Polk 505.

The PA-150 is a monster above about 50hz, but suffers a little below it.

For the price range, it is a pretty dang good sub, even below 50hz. I'd spend the extra $50 for it over the RW12.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=48

FYI, there are two pertinent sticky threads in the Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers forum:

Want advice on what sub to purchase? Please read this before posting...
List of budget subwoofers ($300 and less)

As for the Pioneer speakers, I'm building a bedroom home theater based around a 5.1 (but eventually 7.1) setup using first generation speakers. So far it's front stage only with a pair of SP-FS51-LRs without the base looking strange on stands and a SP-C21. Four SP-BS21-LRs are standing by to be deployed when the boxes are unpacked and space cleared, though only two will make it at first since the receiver is only 5.1.

No photos to make it interesting yet.

Oh yeah, no doubt. Db for Db it holds its own against the Outlaw LFM-1ex, etc.....it's just that at 30-32hz it falls off pretty quickly. I had the PA-120 for awhile and it wasn't too bad. Definitely not musical (personal opinion), but better than some other subs I've heard.

I wonder how difficult it would be to add a longer port and lower the tuning a little

How does JBL Studio 190 4" Floorstanding Speaker compare to FS 52. JBL are priced at 150 on sale now(Frys). Are those worth the extra compare to FS 52?

I wonder if Best Buy would price match? Since it appears to be in-store only, I doubt it, save in those areas (Phoenix, AZ comes to mind) where they have both chains...
Edited by Halfbreedinkc - 3/23/13 at 6:07am

It depends on the employee. I tried and got denied. They claimed the deal is in store only, and there is no store around. They also claimed that the ad implies you have to buy the towers, then add the bookshelves. They would price match if I bought the two towers and the pair of bookshelves, but not just the bookshelves. I ended up getting them to price match tiger direct at $90 + shipping.

I lucked out and talked to a manager who was VERY thorough. I imagine they would price match if you run into someone who just doesn't care.

BB in my city price matched the Frys prices for me. They even price match the iPads, I ended up buying 3 of them.

Just successfully got Best Buy to match the Fry's price on a pair of the floorstanders.

I also got BB to price match Frys and I was surprised to see that BB only matched the price, they did not beat it by 10% like BB does in Canada. I assumed BB in the USA had the same policy as BB in Canada. I could have saved myself the hassle and grabbed them from Frys. I'll probably grab the bookshelves tomorrow. It's a shame the centre isn't on sale too.

Sooo...I took the tweeter out of a bs21 I have and put it in a c21, the highs are much more present now. I A/B a "stock" c21 vs the one with the bs21 tweeter, major difference. The tweeters look the same, but are very different. I am COMPLETELY happy with my c21's now...I just have to get one more c21 and get a bs21 to steal the tweeter from. So if anyone has a spare bs21 they want to get rid please pm me.