3D not ready this go around?

The way I see it from all the opinions so far (as far as the JVCs are concerned) is that there have been no compromises for 2d because of 3d and infact, there have been some nice improvements as far as 2d goes. This seems to be business as usual as far as the progression of 2d, with lower prices to boot (for the RS40 and RS50 at least). The RS40 in particular sounds like a new bang/buck champion in its class.

Considering the previous paragraph, the 3d is simply a bonus feature in my mind to an otherwise fantastic 2d machine (again, from what info/opinions we have at this point). As far as how good/bad the 3d is seems very dependant on who you ask........opinions have been all over the place from great, to not impressive at all and everything inbetween..........this is definitely something that each of us will have to view for ourselves as far as coming to any conclusion on how good/bad the 3d is. I dont think there is any denying that there are compromises at this stage in the game and pricepoint as far as the 3d goes, but how much/little these bother people will vary from one person to the next going off the reports we have so far from my perspective. Hearing positive comments from some well respected individuals on here has me very optimistic though that even in its less than ideal state, 3d on the JVCs can still provide a very entertaining experience. Again though, it sounds like it is very subjective and everyone needs to view for themselves and decide. Of course setup, screen size, the individual room, etc.....will have a big impact on how convincing the 3d may or may not be. As far as needing to spend 15k for "decent" 3d, that is obviously not a hard and fast rule since we have had quite a few that have been impressed with the 3d on the JVCs at this point from what few opinions we have. View it for yourself before coming to ANY conclusions is the key here IMO.

This is just my perspective from what we know at this point. Even if the 3d on the RS40 in particular proves to be crap to my eyes, I would still consider it a great bang/buck 2d projector assuming no major unforseen issues arise (which is not epected). So needless to say, I plan on selling my trusty, tried and true RS1 and getting a RS40

The answer may vary a lot depending on your setup.

For my setup even a projector less bright than the new JVC line would be more than enough, and i mean it.

I currently own a JVC RS1x, and i have a 92" 2.8 gain high power.
So basically i had to put a 4x ND filter on it so i wouldn't go blind, it's incredibly bright even with the filter on, and the black levels look like a cheap LCD with out the filter because of how much light i have.

I'm wondering what this "side to side" motion is all about, it sounds like the the panels not being fast enough to me.

Sony probably doesn't have this issue though, and i'm thinking the new epson panels wouldn't either. (PT AE5000 will probably be our test bed)

I'm also thinking of just getting a second RS1X and buying either a silver screen or trying to get Infitec working perfectly (if i could find a way to color correct... it'd be all set)

It'd be cheaper than buying a new JVC projector, brighter, 0 flicker (not really an issue for me personally, but with passive setups there's no flicker), and most of my content i use from my PC anyway, which already has tons of options for this setup.

Directv 3d would require me to buy that HDMI box though.

So, choices, choices...
I'll make up my mind soon. Also, a neat benefit of using an HTPC instead of just HDMI 1.4.
Is 60Hz 1080p (very nice for games)

HDMI is limited to 24p in 3d, 60 Hz is only possible for 720p in 3d, so in way i'd have a superior setup going that route... assuming i can work out the Infitec gamut issues or buy a silver screen.

But yeah, this is something to wrap your heads around, it'd be cheaper and brighter to get two 2d projectors right now for a lot of people, and with the availability of that HDMI 3d box all of a sudden dual projectors seem that much more appealing.

As far as the content goes... it's comming, by 2011 there's going to be quite a bit out there, a lot of major movie releases are being shot in native 3d, so it's coming.

I probably will! I'll do one of three things - 1) use my two similar projectors in a passive system; 2) buy a JVC RS-40 and use it with a smaller Da-lite HP screen; or 3) buy a 720p DLP 3D projector and an Optoma conversion box and a 3D BD player. You seem to have a very negative view (and rather biased objections) of 3D. I'm certainly not 100% sold on 3D for all types of movies, but it could be a "fun" addition so I'm going to give it a try. Waiting a year or two probably isn't a bad idea unless you're not going to be alive in a year or two and there are no guarantees!

This show has presented a number of 3D products which will likely fail. There are however plenty of gamers using 3D right now. Not me - I'm not a gamer but the technology is certainly available.

The problem with the 3D products of JVC, Sony, Mitsubishi, and Epson shown at CEDIA is that all of them are 1080 and LCoS HT optimized projectors. 3D needs lumens which are easier to get from the 720 DLP and/or LCD business derived projectors.

For the last ten years HT projectors have diverged from the business projectors from which they evolved. Business projectors got cheaper and brighter while HT projectors got dimmer but with better colors and higher resolution. Now these dim high resolution machines are made available with 3D and it just doesn't work very well. Furthermore they are too expensive for what is likely to always be a small market.

The Optoma 66 makes much more sense. Cheap and bright. And 3D.

Epson? Epson doesn't have a 3d projector yet and when it does it needs to use one of its LCD models like the 8500 that has some serious horsepower in dynamic mode and turbo charge it and kick it up to 2500 lumens or more! Let there be light. We're going to need some serious lumens if we're going to use 120" diagonal or bigger screens and from what I've seen 3D makes a big screen look smaller so the bigger the better. The problem is that size kills light. Huston, we have a problem. for 2d we want a high on/off C.R. ratio. For 3D we need lumens - a high C.R. doesn't mean much if you can't make out the image.

well 3d is interesting but the damn manufacturers now are producing brighter projectors which we've been asking for for 10 years!

Marketing Trends

Before 3D: 500 more lumens cost $3500 more bucks
After 3d: 500 more lumens are the same price increase as the higher wattage bulb. $0

Before 3D: more CR was important but not necessarily worth the lumen sacrifice.
After 3D: for every addition 25,000:1 in CR it another $3500 plus they make you believe you still get the same brightness

Aaah... to be in sales

Next they'll tell you by wearing a holographic disk, your viewing capabilities will be in tune with the projector or universe or something
http://www.powerbalance.com/

I already have the Acer 5360 which is wicked bright at 2500 lumens and Im using my Nvidia 3D vision setup for movies and games and Im really impressed with it for 3D. I get perfect 3D with 0 ghosting and motion is 100%. Basically my HT setup at home right now is much better then what I get at the theatre. The Acer cost me a whopping 700.00

Can someone explain what this optoma conversion box will do? I would really like to play PS3 3D on my Acer but because it doesn't have HDMI 1.4 and the Acer doesn't come with glasses anyway, I can't. Will that Optoma box allow me to hook up my PS3 to my Acer projector? If so then I may not by the JVC, and just keep my Epson for now and my Acer 5360.

I'm very thankful to all the guys bringing back their observations from cedia. I think there are 3 important points to take into consideration when interpreting those observations.

First, they were at a show with 120000$ and 85000$ projectors, of course the comparison will make the 5000$ projector look bad.

Second, most comments about bad 3d is based on brightness. The 5000$ projectors should give more brightness than an IMAX or RealD theater (4 to 6 ft-L versus 2 to 4 ft-L), depending on the screen material and size. Some will be satisfied with that brightness and/or high gain screen artifacts, some won't.

Third, the issue of active glasses artifacts are perceived differently for each person. Going to the nearest retailer with those plasma and shutter glasses is an easy way to verify how sensitive you are to the ghosting, flicker, horizontal motion, etc... I think those are mostly related to shutter glasses.

As far as I'm concerned:
- I see some artifacts on plasma with shutters, but I don't think they are a big deal.
- I consider silver screen artifacts to be worse than shutter artifacts at my viewing distance, so passive is not an option for me.
- I am satisfied with my local IMAX 3D. I wish for more brightness, but it's not a show stopper.
- I have no intention of ever looking at a 120000$ projector in my life, that kind of torture should be illegal.
- Based on the experts observations at cedia, in my price range, I don't expect 3d as good as 2d but I expect great 2d with 3d at least as good as my local theater.

I'm not sure I agree. The JVC's appear to have better specs (@ 8000k), but those numbers won't hold up when calibrated. The brightness improvement goes right out the window when D65 calibrated, and I'd be shocked if they're able to keep the same contrast when D65 calibrated. So it seems that at best you'll get a barely 3D capable projector with the same 2D performance as last years model and pay a price premium for it.

Where do I sign up?

Epson 3D projectors, when they begin shipping next year, will be using the new "Reflective LCD" (a form of LCoS) display panels (as used in the new higher-end line of projectors just annouced/demo'ed at CEDIA), not the stardard LCDs used in all Epson projectors currently available. The standard LCDs used in the 8500UB and the new 8700UB simply have too slow a response time to support 3D without resulting in excessive crosstalk (ghosting) between the right and left images. Epson is working to get their new Reflective LCD based projectors up to speed to support 3D. Test results from a pre-production version of one of these new 2D reflective LCD Epson projectors shows that using the dynamic mode then calibrating to get accurate D65 color results in about 950 lumens output, which is similar to what JVC is claiming for the D65 mode with their new 3D LCD projectors. In any case to really get even a modestly bright 3D image plus also resonably accurate colors and gray scale with a fairly large screen (say a 120" screen with a 1.3 gain) you will probably need a projector with dual lamps or an higher wattage lamp (e.g., something on the order of 350 watts to 450 watts) in order to get an actual 2500 lumens in D65 2D mode. This is needed since 2500 lumens in 2D mode provides the equivalent of only approx. 450 to 500 lumens when viewing 3D (accounting for all light losses, including the reduced duty cycle and the light loss thru LCD shutter glasses).

The brightness will certainly go down when calibrated to approx RS15 level I would think. I dont see any reason why the contrast would not be similar to a RS25 or RS20 depending on throw, and iris setting........so I guess I dont understand your D65 calibration comment in relation to this The RS40 as far as calibrated contrast and brightness should be VERY similar to a RS25 or RS20 I would think. If we get the same 2d performance as last years RS25 (minus the CMS), or even slightly better due to the improvements in this years models at the street price the 40 will be going for, it sounds like a great deal to me.

How are we paying a price premium for the RS40? In my mind, we will be getting a slightly better RS25 (besides CMS) for 2d as far as new pannels, better FI, etc......for ~$4000 street(maybe even a bit less) with 3d thrown in to boot.......I dont see where the price premium comes in..... Better projector compared to last years RS25 besides CMS (and the RS20 the year before) at a lower price......where exactly is the price premium? This seems to be fantastic bang/buck

Oh, the answer to your last question is to shoot Jason an email and he will get you on the list

My point is I don't think the RS40 is going to equal the performance of the RS25 when D65 calibrated. I think it will equal the performance of the RS15. Which I guess makes it a little better deal. My comments were more in reference to the RS60 vs. the RS35. I'd guess they'll offer similar calibrated D65 performance. But, you'll pay more this year.

So, what does that extra money get you? Why mediocre 3D!

I dont understand why you think the RS40 wont be at RS25 levels when calibrated? I just dont see any reason at this point why it would not behave similar to the 25/20 as far as calibrated lumens and contrast. It seems you are assuming that since the lumens will go down with D65 that the contrast will as well? If anything, the contrast would go up with less lumens, not down (from what I have read). Time will tell of course when we get some measurements, but I am betting the calibrated lumens and contrast will be VERY close to that of a 25/20.

3d is not the only addition to this years models according to everything I have read. New pannels, better FI, possibility of significantly better ANSI (Jason Turk estimated a possible 2x increase!?) etc.....

Well, we already know the lumen output will go down. The contrast always goes down when calibrated if peak contrast is not at D65 (which it presumably no longer is). When this happens you can no longer use the full range of all the panels because you have to use some of the panels capability to achieve proper calibration.

The alternative is that you can use optical filters to achieve calibration without giving up contrast, but that causes light loss. JVC has included such a filter in the RS40, but it will cost you 65% of the light. So your options are something like ~900 lumen D65 max with noticeably less than the 50k:1 contrast it's rated at, or 500 lumen D65 max with 50k:1 contrast.

IMHO, both scenarios are inferior to the RS25.

Interesting, thanks for the post. I guess we will just have to wait and see some numbers when these start falling into reviewers/consumers hands All I know is that any of these are going to be a nice upgrade to my RS1

Which leads to an interesting question. If the the RS40 lacks a CMS can you even calibrate it to D65?

Wow...This is really depressing. I've got $$$ burning a hole in my pocket for a decent 3D projector, and now it looks like the manufacturers do not have a unit ready to sell me....I am disgusted! Sigh.............

I'm not sure for your case, but from talking to them it sounds like 2 of them can be used to do a dual projector setup for 3D. For instance, a 3D Blu-Ray player to a 4 port distribution amp, with one output to an audio receiver, one output to one Optoma 3D box set to left and then one projector, with another output to another Optoma box set to right and then another projector.

Then Dolby glasses could be taken apart with one lens to each projector, or with single chip DLPs maybe polarized glasses could be used with a silver screen. I'm not sure how big the color issues are with the Dolby glasses (Infitec system), but that is one way I'm thinking about going (although I will likely get an RS40 or RS50 and so might skip the Dolby way even though I already have the glasses and 2 projectors).

For somebody starting from scratch, how about 2 Epson 8350 projectors ($1300 MSRP each and rated at 2000 lumens), a distribution amp, Blu-Ray player, Dolby glasses, 92" wide pull-down Da-Lite screen, and 2 of the Optoma boxes ($400 each), for a total price of around $4000?

--Darin

Then you better not go to a commercial theater.

The $120k projectors actually have much less on/off CR than we get for $5k. That is one of the things that seems backwards, but the really expensive projectors are normally for big screens where they need a lot of light output. And that lack of on/off CR can be pretty noticeable on some scenes. Those expensive projectors have other advantages, but it isn't like they don't give up anything.

--Darin

Darin - could you use a BD 3D player with two HDMI outputs (Samsung and Panasonic make them)? Send one to one "box" and the other to the other "box" and just use optical out for sound. Might be a simple and more cost effective solution (maybe?) I'd love to give this a whirl. Anyway, when can I order your 3D solution from you - sounds pretty good for the money!

I would do that right now if I could, but so far it has looked to me like the 2nd HDMI out is only for audio.

--Darin

Mike. i know you don`t want to hear this but in 2D, to my eyes, the picture on the RS 50 and 60 was noticeably better in many regards than the RS25 and 35. Sharper noticeably.

Thanks Mark for all you contributions. All this information is great. Expecially the new EE Color box which by the sound of it, sounds very promising.

In regards to the RS40, did this look sharper and PQ better than the RS25 and RS35 as well? Besides the no CMS? (probably due to this cant compare, but thought I might ask)

I really spent most of my time at JVC viewing the 50 or 60 in 2D or 3D and dfiscussing dealer things re pricing, show specials etc. i really didn`t look at the pictures thrown by the 40.

Darin. I did look at the Optoma box at the show. Other manufacturers will have boxes too. the Opto,a box will output 720p but not 1080i or 1080p. I understand it, one box is needed to provide shutter glass from one non 3D ready display that will accept 720 120? Unless the projector will accept 120, the box won`t work. For a 2 projector system, two boxes are needed, one set to send out the left eye signal and the other the right eye. Here too, the box won`t output 1080i or 1080p, only 720p. Here I assume the box will output that signal at 60 and the projector need only accept 60. With two projectors, any passive polarization scheme will work placing a filter in front of each lens and wearing the corresponding glasses. To my knowledge, using the infitec filters will shift some colors beyong a normal CMS`s ability to correct them. Using it on a on projector shutter glass system, does the box supply the sync?

Can the box be used with 1080p projectors, letting the 720p output by the box be scaled to 1080p by the projector?

Darin, the upcoming Oppo BDP-93 (replacement for the 83) will have dual HDMI outputs, both with video if so configured:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...ay/oppo-bdp-93

Good info, thanks


rdjam commented that the RS40 to his eyes looked about the same as his 950 (RS25) as far as contrast in this thread...........post#363

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...277429&page=13

Hope to hear about AVS prices soon!

I think the rs40 is going to be a welcome upgrade for me, I currently have an rs2 and the bulb should get me through jan or feb =) How will 3d (good or bad) work on a stewart Firehawk G3 with any of these new jvc projectors? I am looking forward to 3d gaming more than anything...but if I have to change out the screen I will just take the improved 2d for now. Thanks to all for the great info from the show!

All the JVCs I saw had great 3D. There was only a slight bit of flickering, which I think is a tweaking issue.

Depends. While the LG had fantastic 3D, the image seemed a little soft, at least on the content they were showing. Also, the CR did not seem "market leading". So in that case, you might have a great 3D solution built from a slightly lesser light engine. However, this is the opposite for the JVC units, which are even better at 2D than last years models, so there is definitely no compromise there.

No need for 2 screens, IMO. If you are going to have a 3D projector that uses passive filters (as opposed to shutter glasses) then just use a screen like a Black Diamond II, which is already excellent at 2D projection.

Depends on the brand. Brightness of the JVC demo was perfectly acceptable. They were using a BDII, 1.4 gain. Interestingly, the surface structure of the BDII disappeared during 3D. I looked HARD to find it as I knew it was there, but I couldn't see it at all.

...on some models, not all.

...on some models, such as the Sony ES.

? Tell me more

After 15 years, I'm going to switch from Dish Network, to Direct TV. Direct TV will have ESPN 3D and also a general 3D channel for various movies and content, before the end of the year. However, Dish told me they don't feel the need to have any 3D content until there are more sets in homes, and they MIGHT have a pay per view channel up before the end of the year...


OK, OK, I'll do it!