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TruVue eeColor Processor - Page 2

post #31 of 72
Well there goes my RS1 for its main design flaw - oversaturated primaries. Come to think of it what other projectors, on the budget side, will benefit from this color box then? Almost all fixed-pixel projectors, in general, are oversaturated. If their primaries have errors then the secondaries need to have independent controls for improvement; therefore, a true CMS. I mean contrast and color saturation - two of the most important elements in image quality have an expensive price tag; hence, why I suspect JVC only adds them to their mid-range and above models. sorry for the rant
post #32 of 72
No. A true CMS doesn`t need to allow any other colors to be adjusted for xyY than the primaries. If the correct formulas are used to derive the secondaries mo adjustment of the xyY of the secondaries is required to obtain accurate secondaries. If the internal color decoder uses the wrong formulas or the external CMS does, than a six color CMS is needed to correct the design flaws in the projector either in an external or external CMS. which uses the correct color decoding formulas. A non comprehensive list include the EE color box, the Lumagen Radiances, the DVDO Duo, and the VideoForge. Once again all CMS are proper if they use the correct formulas and allow incorrect primaries to be adjusted for xyY, that is hue, saturation, and luminence. Six color adjustments are really only beneficial if the CMS doesn`t use the correct formulas.
post #33 of 72
I'm not disagreeing with you Markunless I'm missing something here. I'm just saying - the ee color and RS1 are not a good pair because the box will not help correct the color coding error that is already in the projector internally (or to put in another perspective - its fleshtone appearance ) However, if the box has the capability over adjusting the secondaries independently then there might be some improvements. IOW, a 6 color CMS is what this pj really needs.
post #34 of 72
The EE box being a thre color CMS which uses the correct formulas for decoding to the secondaries should make the RS1 spot on. If one sets the gray scale to significantly above 6500K it can not correct for some colors flesh tones and leave others where they are by its CMS. It can do it with the right LUT table.

Can one correct flesh tones with a 6 color CMS. No. not without screwing up other colors. That`s why for flesh tone corretion one needs a 7 color CMS or a LUT table which does that. and its OK for anyone to disagree with me. I am wrong on ocassion and with disagreement things get err fleshed out and we all learn.
post #35 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The EE box being a thre color CMS which uses the correct formulas for decoding to the secondaries should make the RS1 spot on. If one sets the gray scale to significantly above 6500K it can not correct for some colors flesh tones and leave others where they are by its CMS. It can do it with the right LUT table.

Can one correct flesh tones with a 6 color CMS. No. not without screwing up other colors. That`s why for flesh tone corretion one needs a 7 color CMS or a LUT table which does that. and its OK for anyone to disagree with me. I am wrong on ocassion and with disagreement things get err fleshed out and we all learn.

Agree with most of what you say but please explain to me why you need a 7 colour CMS of LUT table to correct flesh tone because I would think that having all primaries spot on, having all secondaries spot on and having white spot on (i.e. D65) that flesh tones would also be spot on...

TIA,

Joel
post #36 of 72
A 7 color CMS OR a LUT table. Of course you don`t need it if the primaries are spot on and the secondaries are derived using the correct formulas. Of course if one likes to play and chsnge the flesh tones from where they were coded in the source for Rec 709, then a a 7 color would be nice.

OK. Back to the point, the JVC 3D mode has a goosed up white point in order to squeeze out every frop of light possible. Just like a drug addict licking out the vial of white powder.

Running the white point high (8000K) screws up many colors. The need to correct the flesh tones will be painfully obvious. That is why JVC put in the 7 color CMS.
post #37 of 72
Back to a stand alone Darbee box. They are currently producing a run of 20 evaluation boxes. many are slated for evaluation by manufacturers and others. hopefully i will be able to get one for a short time in december for a meet in my home for those interested in seeing it. Tom and I will likely have to share the same unit. They will be manufacturing for consumer consumption stand alone boxes. Something like $1850 MSRP but nothing is cast in stone. Also it is slated to be included in the nest version of the EEcolor box which I would imagine wouldn`t be priced any higher than that. The current eebox MSRPs for $1500. Jiving all this together, I don`t understand re the pricing models. But if I could buy a stand alone Darby today, I would.
post #38 of 72
TWICE posted an article today about Darbee and EE combining their respective Visual Presence and eeColor processor set-top boxes to, quote: "....create images with an enhanced look of depth without the need to wear 3D glasses of any kind."


http://www.twice.com/article/458006-...Processing.php
post #39 of 72
Reporting misspeak. Obviously no claim is made by darby that it creates 3D viewable without glasses. The Darby process is in part covered by patent (and thus the part that an other could reverse engineer and use if not for patent protection) and thusdisclosed by the patent and in part is covered by trade secrecy. I think the processing algorthms.
recent advances in chip processing power enable the process to be done in close to real time. It changes the picture to make it look more like your eyes would see it in real life, clearer (which can mean many things) w ith depth xlues inserted and viewable as greater transitional contrast rather than edge enhancement and the ringing inherent thereto. It is unlike 3D which presents different views to each eye. Thats my take, i do not know if my explanation is completely correct. one has to see it, how it does it and exactly what does itdo is really not important. Its how it looks. Spectacular. i can`t stress how much i want it and how it improves things. As much as bringing it from near focus to spot on focus. That type of change, or going from SD to HD. SD didn`t look bad until we got HD and then watching SD became nigh impossible.
post #40 of 72
Videophile purists may not like the Darbee, as it changes the image from the original.

Some of the examples look good to me. I would say that they look partly like the difference I see in my FPJ1/RS2 when I switch back and forth between PC and Video color (one looks right, one looks washed out), with a little further darkening of the dark areas to increase the contrast between light and dark adjacent areas, and a little sharpening. However, some of the examples looked like the Darbee was reducing the count of colors in the palette. Take a picture with 16 billion colors. Reduce it to 256 colors. You will get higher contrast in adjacent areas. This of course is an extreme example, but you get the point.
post #41 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by chexi1 View Post

Videophile purists may not like the Darbee, as it changes the image from the original.

Good point. I wonder if anyone will be able to come up with a real time video processor that evaluates each frame, and corrects for known weaknesses in the display unit.
post #42 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chexi1 View Post

Videophile purists may not like the Darbee, as it changes the image from the original.

Some purists of the day didn't like color when it was introduced, either!
post #43 of 72
Thread Starter 
Mark - REAL important question... (I guess ...)

Will the new eeColor box with Darbee built-in be HDMI 1.4 3D compatible?

ie - will it plug in after a 3D Bluray player and perform it's magic on both left and right images in the stream?

Or will two eeColor boxes need to be connected, one in front of each projector?

Do you think you could ask your contacts about that?
post #44 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Some purists of the day didn't like color when it was introduced, either!

I know this is a joke, but I think that it is not technically correct. There were certainly people who objected to the move to color from black and white, just as there were those who objected to the move from silent film to talkies, but I think it is incorrect to refer to those people as videophile purists. A purist wants no change between the production film as displayed versus the film displayed at home. A move from B&W to color in the film itself would not violate that dogma. Now if colorization happened at home on a B&W film, that would violate the dogma.
post #45 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chexi1 View Post

A purist wants no change between the production film as displayed versus the film displayed at home.

And I certainly understand your point also - but I've spent a lot of energy to ensure that the presentation in my home, both audio and video, exceeds what I might pay to experience in the theater. Minus the chewing gum...
post #46 of 72
And the theater chairs and privacy are much better than the commercial theater balcony for fooling around and most commercial theaters don`t have balconies.

I know the new box will be 1.4 but I doubt it would separate and process both streams independently.
post #47 of 72
Hi to all,
this processor is very interesting 4 me.

I read the Jim Sullivan pdf ... here

He says that originally Hollywood Films are encoded in the "Film" gamut standard.

When the opera comes on Blu Ray the the contribute become "de-saturated" to match the old REC.709 gamut.

That's the way that we normally use to view our favorite Films.

Now we have the LED pjs and the eeColor technology that help us to re-expand near the original color gamut.

That's a fantastic idea.

My big question is: How the eeColor knows the de-saturation method that the technical uses to produce any disc??

I know that there are at least 2 different methods (or more) to bring a Hollywod Film on the REC.709.

1- Is to desaturate in a proportional way ANY information in the original "Film" gamut color space.

2- Is to leave where they are any "coincident" informations. The remaining informations that goes out of the REC.709 gamut are desatured and collapsed in the external sides of the REC.709 space.

That's the fact. Any of the producers takes different choice over that.

When we play our favorite film on blu ray ... how can the eeColor comprehend the work behind??

If It doesen't we will have some perfect reproduction end some very strange reproducion.

sorry 4 my poor english.

actarus
post #48 of 72
I bought an ee Box from Spectracal at CEDIA. It isn't operating properly and I reported the problem. Both Spectracal and ee are looking into it.

Does anyone else even have one?
post #49 of 72
so after a year from the OP, is there any more news on the darbee coming to market?
post #50 of 72
I'm a Sharp XV-Z20000 owner. Since DLP gamut is so close to the crap rec709, the eecolor processor won't be able to give any advantages, am I right ? or could it ?
I saw it recently combined with the LED projector TruVue Vango and the job it did upsampling the bluray color space to the LED one resulted in a really wonderful image ...
post #51 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony A. View Post

so after a year from the OP, is there any more news on the darbee coming to market?

Mixed news, at this point.

Good news is that the eeColor box is now out, and looks fantastic - SpectraCal has taken on the eeColor box, also, which is good news.

I have two of the eeColor boxes on their way to me now, so that I can integrate with my 3D setup.

However, the sad part is that eeColor and Darbee decided to go their separate ways - remember that Darbee processing was supposed to be part of the new eeColor box.

So the new eeColor box doesn't have the Darbee visual presence.

However, Darbee is working with another company on releasing an HDMI cable with their Visual Presence called SnakeByte MambaVision - but it's releasing in Europe, possibly US later...?

The GOOD news is that the MambaVision is fully HDMI 1.4 compliant, and will work with all HDMI 1.4 formats, including frame-packed Bluray 3D, SBS, Top-Bottom, you name it.

Gotta tell you the waiting is killing me, but I see light at the end of the tunnel... I just hope it's not a... (HONK ....WHAM!) lol

Here is a quote from Darbee, which I received today in response to my enquiry:

Quote:


The product will be HDMI 1.4 compliant, meaning that the specification will be like this:

Signal Inputs/Output:
Input Connector: HDMI A Female 19-pin
Output Connector: HDMI A Female 19-pin
Signal Input: 2D, 3DTV
Signal Output: Pass-through, 3D Side-by-side, 3D Top-by-bottom,3D Frame-packing & 3D Page-flip
High Speed HDMI Specification: HDMI 1.4a 3D Compliant
Resolutions: Supports 1080p/12-bit Deep color
Supports DTV Input resolutions: of 480i/576i, 480p, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p at 50/60 Hz
Supports DTV Output resolutions: of 480p/576p, 720p and 1080i/1080p at 24/50/60 Hz

I was hoping that Darbee would be in the eeColor box, because it would have been nice to have the color processing too, but either way, at least it looks like I can get both these dream add-ons soon.
post #52 of 72
Thread Starter 
So, I hooked up the eeColor boxes tonight, one per projector, and started putting them through their paces..

As usual, I dove in without reading manuals, just to see what I could make it do out of the box with just a little time.

First off, depending on content, you can make the color look a bit over the top with this device, but once you start understanding what it is doing, it becomes quite simple to get good improvements in PQ.

There are 6 preprogrammed color buttons, which are basically 2 versions each of 3 color modes. Essentially the first is a skin tone neutral enhanced color mode, the second is enhanced color for cinema, which also bumps up the warmth of skin tones, and the third is a "vivid" mode that ramps up the color dramatically.

For HD television, I find "C1" the best. Again, this is the first version of the skin neutral color enhancement, which is designed for a dark room, so black levels don't have to fight ambient light. The second mode of this is one designed for a room with a little more ambient light. I watched a lot of food network HD with this mode, and it also greatly improved the contrast ratio I perceived.

For movies I preferred "C3", which is the first version of cinema mode, designed for a dark room. "C4" is the version of this mode designed for a room with more ambient light. I watched content from "Saving Private Ryan", which was an excellent movie to use this with - made the picture feel alive, much richer. I also watched "Battle L.A." and this made that movie much less washed out also. Inception wasn't the best piece to use this on, as it is just so darned dark to begin with anyway, that there is less ability to see the difference. The best part of Inception for this device was when they entered the Snow dream to attack the secret hideout - this segment was brought to life by the eeCoor.

Tomorrow I'll Be playing some content that already starts with good color and saturation, such as Lord of the Rings. Interestingly, when I first turned these boxes on and started playing, I thought the color saturation was too much, but I quickly got used to it, and now when I disable them, I want them back on right away.

I very quickly cottoned on to a very useful benefit of the units: the "Cinema" mode (C3 and C4) imparts just enough color to compensate for a dimly lit projection screen. For instance, when I zoomed the picture in small, and the screen was bright, the color seemed over the top. But when I zoomed out large, and there was less light on the screen, the color made an otherwise washed out picture superb.

This makes me think that this box is a good fit, at a minimum, for those who are shooting big screens and are not happy with the light and punch they are getting.

The final two modes are the "Vivid" modes, but the two versions are a slightly different treatment than the other modes. C5 is a vivid mode with skin neutral tones, whereas "C6" is a vivid mode with "warm" skin tones. I didn't like C6 personally on any content I have tried so far. But C5 was excellent for HD television. Very nice.

Tomorrow I plan to start looking at the manuals to learn more about what I can do to tweak and customize these boxes.

Note, again, that you can ignore some info from my opening post over a year ago - the Darbee Vision functionality is no longer a part of this box, so the sharpening functions are not a feature as released.
post #53 of 72
Thread Starter 
As an additional note, these boxes have been totally plug-and-play. You just plug them in and they work, no HDMI drama or contentiousness.

I've played with some other gadgets lately that I would sooner call plug-and-plague.

The eeColor boxes haven't skipped a beat as far as HDMI is concerned.
post #54 of 72
rdjam,

Keep your review coming. I'm about to get one as well. Which setting is the closest to D65?
post #55 of 72
Now that SpectraCal is the master distributor for the eeColor Image processor we have created a support forum for it: http://www.spectracal.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=83
post #56 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark143 View Post

rdjam,

Keep your review coming. I'm about to get one as well. Which setting is the closest to D65?

There is a D65 button that I *think* applies D65 to any of the presets - I need to check into it more with the manual...
post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

This makes me think that this box is a good fit, at a minimum, for those who are shooting big screens and are not happy with the light and punch they are getting.

Have you compared that with just increasing saturation using the regular controls?
post #58 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Have you compared that with just increasing saturation using the regular controls?

It definitely does a better job than simply bumping up saturation (and should).

We watched Pirates of the Caribbean: OST in 3D last night using an eeColor box on each projector - so the color was being applied to each eye. I must say the effect was very pronounced. Switching back to normal output left the picture seemingly lacking - so it's something one gets used to very quickly.

Still haven't had a chance to sit with the manual tho! Lol
post #59 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

It definitely does a better job than simply bumping up saturation (and should).

Switching back to normal output left the picture seemingly lacking - so it's something one gets used to very quickly.

Cool, thanks.
post #60 of 72
Thread Starter 
I'm now wondering if I could use these boxes to compensate for the color correction if I decide to switch to Dolby 3D filters... hmmmm...
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