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Help me choose my first PJ!

post #1 of 17
9/28/10 at 10:29am
Thread Starter 
Yes, another one. I need some help deciding what projector to purchase, and am hoping the resident experts around here can help me out. I'm a projector noob, and this will be my first PJ.

Relevant info:

- Room is 24' x 15', projecting on the 15' wall. 9' ceiling.
- 120"-130" 16:9 fixed frame screen (will decide after I get the PJ, and can experiment a bit).
- Usage will be for movies, tv, and video games. I imagine I'll put a good number of hours on the PJ.
- Light control is good - I'll have blackout shades on two windows, and some sort of covering over a sliding glass door in an adjascent room (no door between rooms, light not directed directly into the PJ room).
- Good flexibility in mounting location for the PJ - can mount at just about any distance.
- Primary seating will be 13' - 15'
- 3 rows of recessed lighting, with individual control of each row
- No DLP, due to RBE
- I frequently stream content from a media PC, through a PS3


I'd like to be able to have a good picture with some ambient light, for tv/sports viewing, and when entertaining. Budget is up to probably $2k-$2.5k max, though cheaper would definitely be better, and may affect my screen choice.

Based on my limited research so far, I'm considering (open to other suggestions):

- Epson 8350
- Epson 8500UB
- Epson 8700UB
- Panny AE4000
- LG CF181D


Any suggestions/input? What PJ would you guys recommend?

Thanks!
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post #2 of 17
9/29/10 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
Here's some pics of the room and the lighting situation, if it helps...

First pic is of the screen wall - you can see one window on the left, and there is another on that same wall. These will be covered with some sort of blackout shade.

Second pic shows the sliding glass door, in relation to the screen wall, which will also be covered by something.
LL
LL
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post #3 of 17
9/29/10 at 12:03pm
Shag,

To stay way under budget ($1299.00) and maintain flexibility by going with the 8350. Screen-wise...Go big...but optimize your Throw distance by choosing something at the lower end distance of the scale. (within 1' of minimum.) Use Low lamp. Consider a High Contrast (+ Gain) Gray Screen surface to help boost perceived Blacks beyond the native contrast the 8350 can muster and allow for more lee way in ambient light.

If you did not have ambient light issues at all, the other two Epsons would be great....and the Panny more than acceptable. The Panny would be a great choice if you want to employ the :Lens memory" feature for CIH at 2.35:1, but all of the latter will dictate that you stay at 120" diagonal or under due to the drop in Lumens.

The LG has lost ground with me personally. A great PJ...but when held up against the 8350...I'm going to go Epson every time. And I've already utilized a fair number of CF181Ds so take that for whatever it's worth to you.
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post #4 of 17
10/3/10 at 12:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Shag,

To stay way under budget ($1299.00) and maintain flexibility by going with the 8350. Screen-wise...Go big...but optimize your Throw distance by choosing something at the lower end distance of the scale. (within 1' of minimum.) Use Low lamp. Consider a High Contrast (+ Gain) Gray Screen surface to help boost perceived Blacks beyond the native contrast the 8350 can muster and allow for more lee way in ambient light.

If you did not have ambient light issues at all, the other two Epsons would be great....and the Panny more than acceptable. The Panny would be a great choice if you want to employ the :Lens memory" feature for CIH at 2.35:1, but all of the latter will dictate that you stay at 120" diagonal or under due to the drop in Lumens.

The LG has lost ground with me personally. A great PJ...but when held up against the 8350...I'm going to go Epson every time. And I've already utilized a fair number of CF181Ds so take that for whatever it's worth to you.

Thanks, MM! Can you explain the rationale of going with a high contrast +gain gray screen, over a white screen? Is it solely to improve black level? Will that make the image "pop" less, being a less bright image than a white screen? Any particular screens (and gain) you would recommend for my setup (that won't break the bank)? I have samples on the way from Carada and Da-Lite - not yet sure where else I should be looking.

As of now, I'm definitely leaning towards the 8350. I'm hoping some info on input lag surfaces soon, though I'm starting to struggle with the waiting game...

Is there any downside to mounting the PJ at/near it's minimum throw distance?
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post #5 of 17
10/3/10 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post

Thanks, MM! Can you explain the rationale of going with a high contrast +gain gray screen, over a white screen? Is it solely to improve black level? Will that make the image "pop" less, being a less bright image than a white screen?

Well...you said you will have some light present at times, and ANY light will be picked up by a White Screen, even the projector's own light reflected off the surrounding walls. A Gray will help mitigate that, and if your not talking about oodles of ambient light, then a lighter shade of Gray can make a considerable difference over a white surface.

The fact that the 8350 is a very bright, high contrast PJ is a big plus. With the PJ effectively calibrated to the Light Gray surface, it's gonna be able to "PoP' on all fronts. Another thing... a white surface will do squat to ever help maintain your PJ's contrast capabilities. If the 8350 was 200K:1 or higher (Dynamic), that would not be as important as it is at 50K:1

And lastly, if it's the right Gray...and has a positive Gain factor going for it of over 1.0, it's not going to be "less bright" than a 1.0 White.


Quote:
Any particular screens (and gain) you would recommend for my setup (that won't break the bank)? I have samples on the way from Carada and Da-Lite - not yet sure where else I should be looking.

As of now, I'm definitely leaning towards the 8350. I'm hoping some info on input lag surfaces soon, though I'm starting to struggle with the waiting game...

I'd strongly suggest you consider making up a DIY Metallic "paint based" Screen. There are easy to do, proven examples that have gains over 1.2 and that can be configured to sizes in excess of 140" that would serve your purpose well, at a fractional cost of MFG Screens of any worth. You should PM me or post up on DIY Screens though, this ain't the place to was prolific on such.

Quote:
Is there any downside to mounting the PJ at/near it's minimum throw distance?

Only that of you have a low ceiling that it might reside too dominantly in your field of vision if you habitually glance up during a Movie. The 8350 is extremely quiet though, so "optimally placed" can also be construed as being directly overhead.

Just Do It. (...clever that, eh? )
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post #6 of 17
10/3/10 at 3:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Well...you said you will have some light present at times, and ANY light will be picked up by a White Screen, even the projector's own light reflected off the surrounding walls. A Gray will help mitigate that, and if your not talking about oodles of ambient light, then a lighter shade of Gray can make a considerable difference over a white surface.

The fact that the 8350 is a very bright, high contrast PJ is a big plus. With the PJ effectively calibrated to the Light Gray surface, it's gonna be able to "PoP' on all fronts. Another thing... a white surface will do squat to ever help maintain your PJ's contrast capabilities. If the 8350 was 200K:1 or higher (Dynamic), that would not be as important as it is at 50K:1

And lastly, if it's the right Gray...and has a positive Gain factor going for it of over 1.0, it's not going to be "less bright" than a 1.0 White.

I shouldn't be dealing with lots of ambient light, and it should generally be controlled (other than some assumed minor light leakage around my window coverings), and only utilized for sports and tv watching. Sounds like light gray might be my best bet? How do I determine the proper gain I'm looking for?

Quote:
I'd strongly suggest you consider making up a DIY Metallic "paint based" Screen. There are easy to do, proven examples that have gains over 1.2 and that can be configured to sizes in excess of 140" that would serve your purpose well, at a fractional cost of MFG Screens of any worth. You should PM me or post up on DIY Screens though, this ain't the place to was prolific on such.

I've read up on that a little bit, and it seemed somewhat complex, and the amount of information was pretty overwhelming. If I were to investigate that route, is there a particular paint mix that you're thinking of?

I'd be interested in hearing about any commercial screens I should consider, as well. After spending too many years finishing this space, part of me just wants a drop-in screen, lol. I'll have to try and evaluate the difficulty and process of a DIY screen vs the cost of a commercial screen.


Quote:
Only that of you have a low ceiling that it might reside too dominantly in your field of vision if you habitually glance up during a Movie. The 8350 is extremely quiet though, so "optimally placed" can also be construed as being directly overhead.

Just Do It. (...clever that, eh? )

My ceiling is at about 8' 9", so not too low, though I don't yet know how far I should drop the PJ down off the ceiling. At the 8350's shortest throw, the project would be in front of the primary seating location - I hadn't thought about that. Is that abnormal, and something I should be concerned about, given that I don't know if it would bother me?

I'm definitely leaning towards "just do it", but I'm the opposite of an impulse buyer. Maybe this is a good time to go against my nature...
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post #7 of 17
10/4/10 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post

I shouldn't be dealing with lots of ambient light, and it should generally be controlled (other than some assumed minor light leakage around my window coverings), and only utilized for sports and tv watching. Sounds like light gray might be my best bet? How do I determine the proper gain I'm looking for?

Easy. Just do as your told.



I mean judge by what's suggested to you.

Quote:


I've read up on that a little bit, and it seemed somewhat complex, and the amount of information was pretty overwhelming. If I were to investigate that route, is there a particular paint mix that you're thinking of?

Best paint that is not complex....RS-MaxxMudd

Quote:


I'd be interested in hearing about any commercial screens I should consider, as well. After spending too many years finishing this space, part of me just wants a drop-in screen, lol. I'll have to try and evaluate the difficulty and process of a DIY screen vs the cost of a commercial screen.

No contest. For the difference you'd pay...and the lack of appreciable gain...performance wise, there is nothing that you can consider that can top a well thought out DIY Screen.

That's right! That's what I said!

Quote:


My ceiling is at about 8' 9", so not too low, though I don't yet know how far I should drop the PJ down off the ceiling. At the 8350's shortest throw, the project would be in front of the primary seating location - I hadn't thought about that. Is that abnormal, and something I should be concerned about, given that I don't know if it would bother me?

Not at that height. But simply place the PJ directly overhead or 2'-3' in front of the Seating and you'll never see it unless you go looking.

Quote:


I'm definitely leaning towards "just do it", but I'm the opposite of an impulse buyer. Maybe this is a good time to go against my nature...

It's the "natural" thing to do.
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post #8 of 17
10/5/10 at 12:11pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks, MM. I figured up a new thread in the DIY screens forum to try and dig into that deeper.

Question on mounting height - is there a specific distance I should drop the PJ off the ceiling, or does it really make a difference with my room?
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post #9 of 17
10/5/10 at 1:14pm
i am in the market to, and I am also looking at a epson 8350.
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post #10 of 17
10/5/10 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post

Thanks, MM. I figured up a new thread in the DIY screens forum to try and dig into that deeper.

Question on mounting height - is there a specific distance I should drop the PJ off the ceiling, or does it really make a difference with my room?

There is a correlation between the highest edge of the Screen, and the Len's height that must be taken into consideration. Even with vertical Lens Shift available, one does not want to mount a PJ arbitrarily too high simply to "get it up out of the way".

If you have a Big Screen (120" @ 16:9 diagonal 107" x 60" ) on a 9' high wall, and the top of the Screen's reflective edge is at 94" (13" from the ceiling), a good height might be to hang the PJ inverted so that the center of the Lens is at 10" from the Ceiling. This will leave the bottom of most PJs at 12" to 14" from the ceiling. Also, with the Center of the Lens so close to the Top Edge of the Screen, minimal Lens shifting would be required.

Let's say you still have that 120"er, but 8' foot ceilings. Top edge of Screen is now 10" from ceiling, bottom edge is 26" from Floor. Pj can/should still be as far from the ceiling as possible for both ventilation reasons (heat rises) and to avoid splashing the ceiling with the PJ's beam reflection. In both cases, minimal lens Shift is needed, but when the lens gets within 10 " of a parallel surface, that surface will collect at least some of the passing light beam's energy.
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post #11 of 17
10/5/10 at 4:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

There is a correlation between the highest edge of the Screen, and the Len's height that must be taken into consideration. Even with vertical Lens Shift available, one does not want to mount a PJ arbitrarily too high simply to "get it up out of the way".

If you have a Big Screen (120" @ 16:9 diagonal 107" x 60" ) on a 9' high wall, and the top of the Screen's reflective edge is at 94" (13" from the ceiling), a good height might be to hang the PJ inverted so that the center of the Lens is at 10" from the Ceiling. This will leave the bottom of most PJs at 12" to 14" from the ceiling. Also, with the Center of the Lens so close to the Top Edge of the Screen, minimal Lens shifting would be required.

Let's say you still have that 120"er, but 8' foot ceilings. Top edge of Screen is now 10" from ceiling, bottom edge is 26" from Floor. Pj can/should still be as far from the ceiling as possible for both ventilation reasons (heat rises) and to avoid splashing the ceiling with the PJ's beam reflection. In both cases, minimal lens Shift is needed, but when the lens gets within 10 " of a parallel surface, that surface will collect at least some of the passing light beam's energy.

Good info - thanks! Hopefully, I'll get some good guidance on screen size in my DIY screen thread...

Related question - is the Chief RPA-U the same as the Chief RPA 168? Given that I don't really need a low profile mount, are there other good mounts for this PJ that might be slightly cheaper? I'm not opposed to the Chief, just exploring my options...
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post #12 of 17
10/5/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post

Good info - thanks! Hopefully, I'll get some good guidance on screen size in my DIY screen thread...

Related question - is the Chief RPA-U the same as the Chief RPA 168? Given that I don't really need a low profile mount, are there other good mounts for this PJ that might be slightly cheaper? I'm not opposed to the Chief, just exploring my options...


RPA-U (Universal) & RPA 168 (Dedicated) are the same price.

I'd bite on the Chief . Few things "mount-wise" are as well designed, totally adjustable, and robust yet as low profile and discreet, especially for under $140.00
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post #13 of 17
10/5/10 at 6:01pm
Is high gain often synonymous with grey screens?
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post #14 of 17
10/5/10 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

Is high gain often synonymous with grey screens?

No, but higher gain AND a Gray surface provides increased perceived Contrast from off the Screen's surface, while the higher gain helps offset / prevent loss of brilliance and "PoP" in Colors and Whites that usually accompany a Gray surface.
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post #15 of 17
10/6/10 at 10:37am
Thread Starter 
8350 has been ordered! Thanks for the help in choosing my first PJ!

I'm looking to buy a couple HDMI cables from monoprice - what exactly do I need in an HDMI cable? Do I need "high speed" HDMI cables? I have to measure tonight, but I think the run would have to be 15-20 feet...
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post #16 of 17
10/6/10 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag View Post

8350 has been ordered! Thanks for the help in choosing my first PJ!

I'm looking to buy a couple HDMI cables from monoprice - what exactly do I need in an HDMI cable? Do I need "high speed" HDMI cables? I have to measure tonight, but I think the run would have to be 15-20 feet...

lots of people will tell you lots of stuff about HDMI cables. Here is all i know, i purchased the cheapest 40' HDMI cable i could find and it has worked perfect for the last 3 years...
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post #17 of 17
10/6/10 at 10:56am
Yes, beware of snake oil....
FWIW these cables are great and reasonably priced. I use them everywhere in my setup.
http://bluejeanscable.com/store/hdmi...hdmi-cable.htm
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