The Offical Epson 8350 Owners Thread - Page 151

I doubt my settings are perfect, but they work for me. I am more than willing to share:

Brightness: -11
Contrast: +11
Color Sat: 0
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0

Epson Super White: Off
HDMI Range: Expanded
Power Consumption: Normal (with some ambient light)
ECO (in very dark, light controlled room, at night)
Auto Iris: High Speed

I'm using LG BD570 Blu Ray Player on 1080p. It has no choices for HDMI range output that I am aware of, so default.

I calibrated using The Incredibles on Blu Ray using their calibration test patterns. Good luck and happy viewing.

A new & happy 8350 owner join in this thread, just got my 8350 yesterday, so far I have been using it for 2 hours, still finding the best placement location for a 119" high contrast grey screen, I have to agree with most users, out-of-box picture quality is amazing & stunning

I got Arts settings from projectorreview and then executed THX optimizer pattern. Ended up with these settings:

Image
color: cinema
brightness: -10
contrast: 11
Color sat: -7
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 3
Color Temp: 6500
Skin Tone 3
Power Consumption: ECO
Auto Iris: Normal


Advanced:
Gamma: 2.4

Offset R: -5
Offset G: 0
Offset B: -7
Gain R: -1
Gain G: -1
Gain B: 0

Signal
Epson Super White: Off
Overscan: Off
HDMI Video Range: Expanded

I am not sure about brightness if its not too low, the shadow details are very week, but seems similar to Manos777 settings. Are there any better pattern samples than THX?

Shadow details are suffering due to HDMI Range being set to EXPANDED. Set it to NORMAL and make sure your source is set to Y CbCr or LIMITED. This is also why you ended up with a -10 for brightness. Set it up as above then re-calibrate.

I posted this as a stand-alone, but thought adding it the the 8350-specific thread was appropriate.

I've been working with my 8350 and have been a bit frustrated trying to dial in primaries/secondaries, gamma and such.

Especially with the blue primary, I seem to hit a brick wall a few points from the xy spec. Further, even with a gamma of 2.4 selected, evaluation with various patterns indicated it was only 1.5. The image was OK but as others have observed it seemed washed out and undersaturated.

Overall setup vas done with the AVSHD disc (Thank you for creating such a useful resource!), as well as the Disney WOW disc, Spears/Munsil and DVE Basics.

What follows is just a heads-up to establish if this is a valid hit or something already addressed that I missed. I haven't run a complete recal yet, so I might be back to post a never mind.

I had read in an online resource for setting up Epsons that when setting custom gamma to leave the highest and lowest slider untouched as they are essentially preset by black level (brightness) and white level (contrast.)

As I looked at the gamma-adjust graph it occured to me that all factory presets have the lowest and highest adjust points well-removed from min/max settings. If I was looking at an audio response, I would call it compressed. Peaks and highs constrained, dynamic range reduced. So the lightbulb (LED, whatever!) lit.

As an experiment, I moved the high and low points to their limits and filled-in a rough-guess curve. All previous RGBYCM/RGB adjustments were now way off, so I just set everything back to default under Cinema mode and used AVSHD to reset black and white levels. My opinion on the subject changes more often than the tide, but set up with Super white off and HDMI range to expanded.

Sure looks like more punch and more consistant saturation for low to high IRE. I'm returning to complete a cal run with the new baselines and see what happens!

Sharpness. It matters when using the WOW disk, which utilizes a black and white checkerboard as the background reference for gamma. Under advanced sharpness, I zeroed thick/thin. Just changing horizontal and/or vertical enhancement from 0 to -1 causes a large shift in the apparent grey value background reference. This can be problematic, as it would require proper setting before gamma eval.

I can easily tell the people who've never worked in manufacturing before. Extra testing, higher precision more expensive equipment, higher labor costs and time, ALL CONTRIBUTE TO A MORE EXPENSIVE PRODUCT. You guys complain that more should've been done, bla bla bla etc etc etc, well, you're not going to achieve that in a $1200 projector from this company, they'd crumble. Live with it or buy different technology or a higher end model or a different brand that has a different style of issues.

As for how to check for convergence, basically the easiest way is to put up some black and white text on your screen, stand up and put your nose to your screen, and see if you can see the different colors not lined up. Yup, your convergence is off @ 1 inch from your eyes. Come on guys.

+1 well said...

Here is my question, 8350 pj can go 120 dia or 133 dia fixed screen probably draper Onyx gray or white? Vel-Tex not sure what that option is and should I get it? with calculation at 133 dia net 1.2 gain on screen what does this do to the pict quality? This is in a new construction room so ceiling black front wall black side windows black curtains other side wall probably white, ceiling mount projector can do any throw distance looks like 16' for 120 dia and 133 dia 17'9" so what would everyone go with? would the picture be noticeably better with the 120" dia? Recommendations? Thanks in advance.

+2

-1

its not like you have to set it for each and every projector. its robotic and can be done by setting proper parameters prior to running the assembly line.

Thanks for sharing your settings.
Unfortunately, with my Panasonic BD65, those settings produced crushed blacks and lacked detail in dark scenes. Since you didn't mention the mode, I only used Cinema.

*Setting the player HDMI to Standard or Enhanced made no difference.

These are the settings I use that produce a great picture with my player.

Mode: Cinema
Brightness: 1
Contrast: 0
Color Sat: 1
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0 (Standard)

Epson Super White: On
HDMI Range: Normal (grayed out but assume it defaults to Normal)
Power Consumption: ECO (I have a light controlled room)
Auto Iris: Off

*I only watch blu-ray material and only use HDMI 1 on the projector.
117" white screen with about a 1.2 gain.

-1 even with robotics, there is something called tolerance. Just like computer processors that do not meet set standards and tolerances, are set to lower speeds and sold as slower, cheaper models. For all we know, Epson might take those pjs that come out of the assembly line with perfect convergence and turn them into 8700UBs while those that aren't too perfect are made into 8350s. That's obviously hypothetical but just trying to get a point across about how the world of electronics manufacturing works in many cases.

It's simple, you want better quality, pay more. That's like complaining that your Toyota Corolla doesn't ride as smooth as the Toyota Camry and going to the dealership to bitch about it.

I wish my $1200 projector performed like a $2500 projector. But I don't want to pay more than $1200!!

All this +- s*it! You guys are a trip, and thanks for destroying this thread!

Bad convergence is the result of manufacturing tolerances. I personally despise it, and send back unit after unit until I get a good one.

Putting in a software utility to change the raster alignment is a 100% effective, 99% free solution that would solve this once and for all. There have been projectors that have that feature, and it should be standard. There's no reason *not* to have it.

Side note: Many of you hook up your PJ to your computer. There are alignment programs (or used to be?) that change the raster settings of your video card to offset any panel alignment issues.

I guess $1200 is a drop in the bucket for you but for some of us, it's a decent amount of our budget.

Anyway, my 3 yr old Sanyo Z2000 (Paid $1499 new) had better convergence than the 8350. The only reason I upgraded was the Sanyo light output was low and crush blacks at times. I was hoping for an upgrade but basically got a better light canon with slight convergence.

I do not understand why this isn't done on the Epsons. I mean it's a no brainer. Allow a service menu to move the panel 1 pixel one way or the other. I can't imagine how much money they lose over convergence issues.

As for the PC software, I'd like to check into that. While my existing 8700 has perfect convergence, that too has to go back due to a blue haze on the the entire left side of the screen....so I ain't done with replacements just yet.

I tell you what though, seeing a unit with spot on convergence, the sharpness difference is pretty dramatic for someone like myself using a PC as a HTPC.

You may be right, it might be a huge oversight, but my feeling is there is likely a reason that none of us our akin to knowing.

It's most likely a difficult or expensive feature to implement properly for LCD on a 1080p, otherwise it's just overlooked. Sure these LCOS projectors have it, but they are based on a more expensive line of technology.

Keep in mind that on the older 720P projectors, like the Sanyo Z5, you could shift pixels, but only 2 pixels at a time. So there was obviously some engineering difficulties involved, or they would have allowed you to do it in 1-pixel shifts or smaller. Obviously the 2 pixel shift feature was purely for their own internal use in case the machine just totally screwed up.

Now keep in mind, 2 pixels off on 720p is like being off by 4.5 pixels on a 1080p, so that was a pretty useless feature even back then, because none of the projectors that I saw ever left the factory with more than 2 pixels off for a 720p projector. Really few were off more than 1 pixel, so even shifting 2 pixels would generally net you the same result.

I also remember going into my Z5's service menu just to see what effect it had, I remember some limitations for it even beyond the 2 pixel shift, just don't recall at the moment.

How does that math come out?

Here is my math:

2073600 (1920x1080)
921600 (1280x720)

2,073,600 / 921,600
= 2.25 pixels difference
* 2 Pixels off
-------------

4.5

I was just being sleepy. I'd say it's 3 at 1080p for 2 at 720p. We're looking at a linear relationship in each dimension, no? In any case, ignore my post before yours!

We're talking equivalence in the sense of perceivable effects and visibility to sharpness, based on overall convergence.
Convergence can be off in terms of partial pixels, even though a display cannot show a partial pixel in itself from a video source.

So you are thinking in terms of scaling translations, in that sense it has to be translated to fit into a whole number to do any scaling algorithm, because a display cannot show a partial pixel.

[quote=42Plasmaman;20439785]Thanks for sharing your settings.
Unfortunately, with my Panasonic BD65, those settings produced crushed blacks and lacked detail in dark scenes. Since you didn't mention the mode, I only used Cinema.
QUOTE]

I started with Cinema mode.

My Blu Ray player is set to YCbCr, as opposed to RGB output. It does not have an option for limited or expanded HDMI range. It is an LG BD570.

Good luck.

Put almost 10 hours on the PJ this weekend...Tron, Star trek, Green Hornet , Golf...WOW WOW WOW and WOW!

So thrilled with the picture I can't believe it. I have total light control in my HT, and even in mid afternoon you can't see your hand in front of your face...Spectacular picture. Watched golf with lights on, no problem in living room mode (calibrated)...adjust projector and convergence is excellent..very sharp picture..

Happy as a clam.....

I searched this forum and there were so many threads that containted 'Dust Blob' that I thought it might be easier to just ask the question.

I just started to notice 2 green 'dust blobs' when using my projector. I have an 8350 after Epson replaced many 8100 (they finally ran out and gave me a new 8350 instead). I have had this projector going for about 7-8 months.

My question is for those that have had this problem - how did you handle it? Is this something that I can do to fix it or is this something that Epson will need to do to fix it?

For me, the convergence was just a bit over the unacceptable line - the green/red shifting on the left 1/3 of the picture was too visible at times, especially along the edge, and it is exactly the same after 40+ hours. So I just called Epson tech support, and I have to say, they are super helpful and friendly. I got through in just a couple of minutes.

The guy said that convergence unfortunately can't be tweaked in the menus (as we have known), it is physical work that has to be done to re-align the LCD panels.

I have had the new 8350 less than 30 days, so they can overnight a brand new one to me, and I just ship the old one back (they have a credit card hold in case you don't send the old one back). I guess if it's over 30 days from date of purchase, but still under warranty, you get a refurb unit?

Anyway, I'll check the new one side by side and see how it compares.

I thought you never got a new one on a warranty claim, you get a refurb.

Well there are alot of us with HTPC's that would love to try "raster" settings for alignment issues...can anyone at all expand on this in detail??

You would make alot of people happy if this is something that would work...

They can't fix panel alignment issues with pure software, the hardware also has to be designed to work with the software. If it were a 99% free solution, every projector would have done it.

JVC's have more pixels than 1920x1080 (oversized panels) so that you don't lose resolution in full pixel adjustments. Sony notes that if you shift pixels in less than full increments, it affects the native resolution with a scaler algorithm. The Sony solution, although it works, is not 100% effective, more like 50% effective. The JVC solution, I'm not completely sure about, but I think it only lets you shift pixels in 1/2 increments on the newer models, or 1 full on the older.

Neither JVC or Sony's solution is 100% truely effective to correct really bad convergence, it's just meant to help tighten it up a bit. There is no easy solution for the manufacturers to fix convergence, considering you have $8000 JVC projectors which often have imperfect convergence, it's obvious that it's not a simple fix.

You can't fix convergence with an HTPC, the best thing you could do is change FONT sizes and/or use sharpness like filters to adjust text appearance even more.

Just to make sure... If the PJ's info says the source being fed into it is RGB-Video, that means it's a 0-254 and as such, I should set the PJ's HDMI range to expanded, correct? Even if this RGB-Video feed is a movie which one would assume has been encoded in 16-235 range? Movie is a Matroska file being watched via a PS3.

I don't see why a custom filter on an HTPC couldn't be created to shift individual colour components and compensate for the shift that will subsequently happen in the display due to poor convergence. But a simple shift isn't enough to solve all cases. I've seen sample images posted here that seem to show panels tilted out of the image plane, which slightly shrinks one colour component relative to the others so that the amount of misconvergence varies from one side of the screen to the other.

Once you have to make sub-pixel adjustments, image quality will start to suffer due to the resampling. But that could be a good use of higher resolution panels. With a 3840x2160 panel, you can do half pixel shifts of 1080p material with no resampling.