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The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 44

post #1291 of 2268
Thank you for all the pictures and details.

Motorman, when you say 18-20% efficient, which situation do you use for this measurement ?
Single projector with rotating wheel (like dolby) ?
or Dual-projector / 2 eyes per projector ?
or Dual projector / 1 eye per projector ?

So that I can compare the light effichiency with my polarised system with advisol SPAR-L filters claiming 80% light transmission (with pre-polarised light from 3-LCD projectors)
post #1292 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Thank you for all the pictures and details.

Motorman, when you say 18-20% efficient, which situation do you use for this measurement ?
Single projector with rotating wheel (like dolby) ?
or Dual-projector / 2 eyes per projector ?
or Dual projector / 1 eye per projector ?

So that I can compare the light effichiency with my polarised system with advisol SPAR-L filters claiming 80% light transmission (with pre-polarised light from 3-LCD projectors)

18-20% are for a single projector with a wheel measurements made in LA using a photo research pr650, capturing data and then calculating in a spread sheet program. the realDxl is like your setup for circular and they are at 28%, but that is starting with no polorization in the projector or little, the jvc already has the loss due to polorizing internally so its not quite apples to apples. either way i am very interested in the results.
for two projectors my results show 35%. i made those here in my facility with an ocean optics spectrometer by collecting the unfiltered output of the projectors and then the combined spectral output. using a spreadsheet i combine all the data to calculate energy balance, efficiency and color gamut. you need to apply photopic response in calculating %eff

here are some pics of my test rig showing an eye filter fixture that can simulate eye movement and captures a real " view " thru the lens. the fiber optics have acromat collection optics.
LL
LL
LL
post #1293 of 2268
Thank you for all the details.
It sounds like I won't loose that much light by switching to your system. I should get about the same amount of light than what I had when I previously used traditional Linear polarising filters, which is good enough. I feared the light output were too low when I first read the figures. Now I understand them better.
I'll gladly trade the light difference for zero crosstalk.
post #1294 of 2268
Motorman.

Thanks for the info.

I just want clarification on the 35%. Is that 35% to each eye with glasses on or 35% from the screen without glasses?

It seems that 18% is the real efficiency to each eye given that each eye only sees one image but i want to make sure.

From a user perspective efficiency should be what is hitting the retina of one eye with glasses on since after all this is what one would be seeing if watching a 3D movie.

-- John
post #1295 of 2268
Hello. What do you think about this projector Panasonic PT-AR100u? Is good for a passive 3d system?
post #1296 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrmy View Post

Some efficiency numbers that I've seen:

Christie's Digital Cinema Configurator:
- RealD XL: 28 %
- RealD (Z): 15 %
- MasterImage: 16 %
- XpanD: 18 %
- Dolby: 11 %

Harkness' Digital Screen Selector:
- RealD XL: 27 %
- RealD (Z): 15 %
- MasterImage: 18 %
- XpanD: 18 %
- Dolby: 12 %

this is a great set of data showing 3D performance in the cinema world. in these systems the omega 3D / Panavision measured 18% with no ghosting and meeting DCI specs.
post #1297 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorini View Post

Hello. What do you think about this projector Panasonic PT-AR100u? Is good for a passive 3d system?

It seems like an excellent choice to me. Lots of light. Great price.
post #1298 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorini View Post

Hello. What do you think about this projector Panasonic PT-AR100u? Is good for a passive 3d system?

looks like a very good choice for a dual stack 3D passive setup to me
post #1299 of 2268
I received this response from an expert on SilverFabric.What do you think?
We can get better results with LCD projectors than with DLP or minimum as good as DLP. In a passive Projection the normal POL Filter in front of lens you loose for example with two 3000lumen projector nearly 55% of the total light output, because with one filter the total horizontal and with the other filter the total vertical light waves are blocked. In total you reach with normal POL Filter nearly 2700lumen transmitted light on the screen. This happens to all the projectors, DLP or LCD with POL Filter. The only advantage you have with LCD Projectors is to take the spar filter. These filter pairs work only with LCD Projectors and have a transmission of about 65%, means the total light output can be more than 2700lumen at nearly 3900lumen. These are special filter we can offer only for LCD projectors up to 5000lumen, but they are a lot more expensive as you see in the price table.

Yes 2700lumen on a 7m diagonal screen works, but is better with 3900lumen for sure. You can compensate the this difference also with bigger projector types.

If you want to handle your project with DLP projectors, what we think is cheaper to buy, we suggest you better take projectors between 4-5000lumen, because you can use only POL Filter with at least in best case of about 45% transmission rate.

If you decide for LCD projectors you have the option to buy smaller Volume projectors with high transmission filter, or to buy bigger volume projectors with POL Filter, or to generate more light bigger projectors between 4-5000lumen and high transmission filter.
post #1300 of 2268
I have Epson LCD projectors 1800lumen on 106" (actually half that lumen rating because i don't use the max brightness mode) and I tested both standard linear filters and the SPAR filters. I got the linear filters straight from them but got the SPAR filters second hand.
The light output is indeed very high, but the special 3-LCD projector polarisation is a double edged sword. The price to pay for the lumen is colour shifts on the sides of the picture.
It happens because the light hits the (flat) filter at an angle, and since the primary colours are polarised at different angles, the effect of the filter will affect some colours more than others depending on where and at which angle the light hits the filter.

With linear filters (at 45°/135° : the balance angle between vertical and horizontal primary colours), the effect on screen is a dominant green at one edge of the screen and a dominant purple at the other, and the dominant colours are reversed between the left eye and the right eye, see pictures in my sig. (i should update that thread, there are a number of outdated things in there, and a couple of things I understood wrong at the time I wrote it).

With SPAR filters, the effect on screen is a dominant green at the centre of the screen and a dominant purple towards the outside of the screen. The pattern is identical in both eyes though.
I have 1st gen SPAR filters (80% transmission), I read somewhere that the newer versions don't have this issue but their light transmission rating is a bit lower.
I don't have pictures, but the amount of colour shift is roughly the same between my SPAR and traditional Linear filters.

It's a nice system but from what I read from the Omega system, it's an outdated technique. The zero crosstalk, colour uniformity across the screen and the ability to use any screen surface beats the small light boost of LCD+SPAR filters.
You'll have to wait this summer for me to do the comparison, but I now believe the Omega system won't disappoint.
post #1301 of 2268
Why do you need a computer to use this system? Why wouldn't something like the Oppo 93 BD player work with 2 HDMI outs work -- one to each projector? I have an Epson 9500 and a 7500, both with horizontal and vertical lens shift. What do I need besides this Omega kit?
post #1302 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Why do you need a computer to use this system? Why wouldn't something like the Oppo 93 BD player work with 2 HDMI outs work -- one to each projector? I have an Epson 9500 and a 7500, both with horizontal and vertical lens shift. What do I need besides this Omega kit?

You would need something that sends the left image to one projector and the right image to another (demultiplexer) using two 3DXL boxes you can do this.
post #1303 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post


Yes using the CMS in the projector with the filters in place is the way to do it. it dose not need the signal altered.

One issue all dielectric filters can suffer from is back reflection. this type of filter reflects what it dose not pass. the real key with this type of system is the eyewear frame. the geometry of the lenses relative to the eye and the amount of shrouding the frame offers in the right places.
anti reflection coating cannot reduce the reflection from a dielectric filter coating as it is the nature of these to reflect in their filtering and an anti reflection coating only reduces the reflection of a glass to air surface by 2-3%. un coated glass has ~3.5% surface reflection per surface and if there is a filter coating on one side it is its own AR of sorts and cannot be anti reflected further in its pass band area.

our frames are not perfect but they were also made for mass production. they do offer better dtray light blockage than the dolby frame but i actually like their frame for comfort. you can get our lens to fit in that frame with a little glass mod.
as far as efficiency in the cinema systems dolby is 11-12% and ours has been 18-20% efficient. realD is 16% for the Z system and 28% for the XL but those are polorization systems needing a silver screen also.

Thanks for your replies that really helps. That's quite a sizeable increase in efficiency versus Dolby.

On the AR coating. Perhaps I have used the wrong terminology which may have confused things but I thought one of the models of the Dolby glasses did reduce the reflective eye ball effect. I think jack Bauer was trying to get hold of these at one point but didn't have much luck. Hmmm I can't seem to find the different glasses model info...

And on screens I presume the omega setup needs to be used on a white screen? Are grey or black diamond type screens no use?
post #1304 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Why do you need a computer to use this system? Why wouldn't something like the Oppo 93 BD player work with 2 HDMI outs work -- one to each projector? I have an Epson 9500 and a 7500, both with horizontal and vertical lens shift. What do I need besides this Omega kit?

Jackpot! If someone would make a bluray player that could do left and right 3D outputs it would be a no brainer for the dual projector set up. Hopefully soon we can get one that does just that and eliminate a splitter and two demux boxes.
post #1305 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunti View Post

Thanks for your replies that really helps. That's quite a sizeable increase in efficiency versus Dolby.

On the AR coating. Perhaps I have used the wrong terminology which may have confused things but I thought one of the models of the Dolby glasses did reduce the reflective eye ball effect. I think jack Bauer was trying to get hold of these at one point but didn't have much luck. Hmmm I can't seem to find the different glasses model info...

And on screens I presume the omega setup needs to be used on a white screen? Are grey or black diamond type screens no use?

on the screen it can be any type. white is best as it avoids hot spots, but a good black diamond is fine too. it just dosnt need to be silver as in a polorization system.

dolby tried to change the type of filter coating and frame design to reduce reflection. its actually interesting, a thin stack of mylar films each with a few coating layers all stacked to create the filter. i think its a 3m product but not sure. one flaw i see in these is very weak rejection or blocking compared to coated glass optics. they still work but not to the quality of the prior

AR coatings do reduce surface reflections of a glass to air surface but they cannot reduce the reflection of a dielectric pass band filter in its rejection area. it actually increases the reflective energy to a very small effect
post #1306 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post


Jackpot! If someone would make a bluray player that could do left and right 3D outputs it would be a no brainer for the dual projector set up. Hopefully soon we can get one that does just that and eliminate a splitter and two demux boxes.

Yeah. I had that hope when there was the dual HDMI output from Panasonic I believe but it turned out just to be more geared to using one for audio. I mailed Samsung about creating such a product and they basically blew off.
post #1307 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalJman View Post

Yeah. I had that hope when there was the dual HDMI output from Panasonic I believe but it turned out just to be more geared to using one for audio. I mailed Samsung about creating such a product and they basically blew off.

I think a good home theater PC is a great way to demux 3D as well as you can game on it, play all kinds of media including from the net, google earth is amazing in 3d on a big screen. and its nearly the same cost as a demultiplexor set, splitter and player
post #1308 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

You would need something that sends the left image to one projector and the right image to another (demultiplexer) using two 3DXL boxes you can do this.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted. So what are we looking at -- $1,100.00 to $1,500.00 for the filter system and dual 3DXL boxes?
post #1309 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Yeah, I realized that after I posted. So what are we looking at -- $1,100.00 to $1,500.00 for the filter system and dual 3DXL boxes?

Closer to $800-$900, you will only the the 3DXL boxes and not the ones that come with glasses (box alone is going for $225 new on ebay)
post #1310 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

I think a good home theater PC is a great way to demux 3D as well as you can game on it, play all kinds of media including from the net, google earth is amazing in 3d on a big screen. and its nearly the same cost as a demultiplexor set, splitter and player

If you use a PC you still have to be a little careful for your choice of graphics card, otherwise you'll run into Sync problems between the projectors.
Ideally, you'd want a graphics card able to lock multiple outputs together (frame-lock). This feature is only available on professional graphics cards like Nvidia Quadro or AMD Firepro.

However I found a work-around for consumer cards which only works on AMD Radeon cards : Eyefinity.
Eyefinity is designed for gaming with multiple monitors side by side, it merges the desktop of multiple displays into a single large surface so that windows and applications believe there is only one single giant panoramic screen, and the AMD driver tries to lock the displays in sync (hidden frame-lock). All you have to do then is to display your 3D content side by side full screen.
So far only AMD Radeons support this for 2 displays.
Nvidia Geforce have a similar feature but you have to have two graphics cards in SLI and it requires 3 displays (you can't use just 2)

There's just a little catch with using AMD Eyefinity : if you want perfect frame-lock : you have to use absolutely identical outputs : from the plug at the back of the card, to the possible converters you might want to use, so be careful at the available plugs at the back of the card when you buy it : I've got the latest AMD Radeon 7970 gaming card and I had to buy extra mini-DisplayPort adapters to make it work.
If you try to use different outputs, you'll loose the sync and get tearing on one of the displays.
post #1311 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

If you use a PC you still have to be a little careful for your choice of graphics card, otherwise you'll run into Sync problems between the projectors.
Ideally, you'd want a graphics card able to lock multiple outputs together (frame-lock). This feature is only available on professional graphics cards like Nvidia Quadro or AMD Firepro.

However I found a work-around for consumer cards which only works on AMD Radeon cards : Eyefinity.
Eyefinity is designed for gaming with multiple monitors side by side, it merges the desktop of multiple displays into a single large surface so that windows and applications believe there is only one single giant panoramic screen, and the AMD driver tries to lock the displays in sync (hidden frame-lock). All you have to do then is to display your 3D content side by side full screen.
So far only AMD Radeons support this for 2 displays.
Nvidia Geforce have a similar feature but you have to have two graphics cards in SLI and it requires 3 displays (you can't use just 2)

There's just a little catch with using AMD Eyefinity : if you want perfect frame-lock : you have to use absolutely identical outputs : from the plug at the back of the card, to the possible converters you might want to use, so be careful at the available plugs at the back of the card when you buy it : I've got the latest AMD Radeon 7990 gaming card and I had to buy extra mini-DisplayPort adapters to make it work.
If you try to use different outputs, you'll loose the sync and get tearing on one of the displays.

Very good informantion. thanks ! I have been using the nvidia quatro work station cards and a high end gaming gtx and have not tried any lesser consumer cards yet. depending on how much someone wants to spend on an HTPC the 3dxl without their glasses is actually cheaper. i still like the PC based option for myself.
post #1312 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Closer to $800-$900, you will only the the 3DXL boxes and not the ones that come with glasses (box alone is going for $225 new on ebay)

O.K. that's doable as a fun project since I already have the projectors. I trust the Oppo 93 will work by just sending the dual stream 3D from one HDMI out to a 3DXL box and the other dual stream 3D from the Oppo's second HDMI out to the other 3DXL box and then left stream to one projector and right stream to the other from each box. Is this correct or am I out to lunch?
post #1313 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

O.K. that's doable as a fun project since I already have the projectors. I trust the Oppo 93 will work by just sending the dual stream 3D from one HDMI out to a 3DXL box and the other dual stream 3D from the Oppo's second HDMI out to the other 3DXL box and then left stream to one projector and right stream to the other from each box. Is this correct or am I out to lunch?

That should work as long as the oppo is sending video to both hdmi ports. Another option is an AVR receiver with dual hdmi output. My Yamaha RX-V867 outputs the same video source to two hdmi outs quite well. I haven't tried it in this type of implementation, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. The only thing I can think of is if there is any type of latency between the two signals which would result with the signal coming from both hdmi outputs not lining up properly.
post #1314 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

O.K. that's doable as a fun project since I already have the projectors. I trust the Oppo 93 will work by just sending the dual stream 3D from one HDMI out to a 3DXL box and the other dual stream 3D from the Oppo's second HDMI out to the other 3DXL box and then left stream to one projector and right stream to the other from each box. Is this correct or am I out to lunch?

It looks like you can do exactly that and do away with an HDMI splitter with this player. just need the 2 3dxl's, two projectors and a filter set
post #1315 of 2268
Motorman45, have you guys thought about making a modulator for non-DLP based active 3d projectors to convert to passive?
post #1316 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Motorman45, have you guys thought about making a modulator for non-DLP based active 3d projectors to convert to passive?

not sure what you mean by a modulator. do you mean like the lcd shutters for a single projector ? we have looked at making a wheel to go in front of a small single unit but its not cheap and we have not made one yet.
post #1317 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post


on the screen it can be any type. white is best as it avoids hot spots, but a good black diamond is fine too. it just dosnt need to be silver as in a polorization system.

Anyone tested this on a black diamond (non pol) screen? Or any other non white? Would be interested to hear feedback thanks.
post #1318 of 2268
Anyone find a better alternative to having to purchase two Optoma 3d-xl's?
post #1319 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondaedg View Post

Anyone find a better alternative to having to purchase two Optoma 3d-xl's?

For now I don't think there is one, but there is at least one box coming soon that will work for dual projectors and do color correction
post #1320 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

For now I don't think there is one, but there is at least one box coming soon that will work for dual projectors and do color correction

http://www.computex.biz/vns/Default...._id=46501#pic2

i know we have talked before about this product a little but i have a connection in china looking into access to these. demux, edge blending, curved screen geometry adjustment and color adjustment dual projector support all in one box, oh and hdmi... interesting ?? what if i could offer something like this with the omega 3D kit. ??
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