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The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 46

post #1351 of 2105
3/18/12 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

With the Omega filters would an anamorphic lens be a problem?

Any lens that makes for a wider range of angles passing thru a filter will cause issues with the effectiveness on the edges of the image. The best place for our filters is at the light source or anywhere the beam is more collimation. Less range of angles. They work pretty well in front of the lens as is.
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post #1352 of 2105
3/19/12 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by efendy View Post

Hi Folks,

This is my take on the omega system. I got it up and running last week but wanted to test it before giving any feedback.

I use 2x Panasonic pt-ax200u 720p projectors. they are 2000 lumens and I believe they are good enough with a 100" screen (1.0 gain). But a little bit brighter would have been better in my opinion.

I mounted filter holders to door hinges to let me get the filters out of the way for 2D. Filter size is big enough to accommodate the light passing through. no need to mount them in the lens cone as I had to do with dolby glasses.

Extinction ratio is great. No crosstalk. I dont see much color shift depending on the angle of the filters unlike dolby system. I keep them angled away to direct the reflected light away from the lens.

I didnt do any color correction as I didn't need it. I am not very fussy though.

I can see minimal reflection in the glasses probably because of all white ceiling and walls.

I use ATI 6850 graphics card and I didn't have any problems with sync in non-eyefinity mode. I use display port to VGA adapter to power my main screen and projectors are connected to the 2 dvi ports via HDMI adapters. I use them in extended configuration and use the stereoscopic player to watch the movies in dual output format. As I stated above I didn't have any sync problems like the ones BlackShark had in this configuration. I dont know whether it's GPU related as it's a fairly powerful gpu. Didnt have a chance to use it with games so cannot comment on it.

3D is great and I got very good feedback from the family and friends.

These are my observations so far. If anybody needs any specifics please chime in.

overall, I am very happy with the setup. more importantly my wife is happier than me she didn't like the dolby approach as I couldnt fix the colors completely because of limitations of the projector. She was very skeptical with the omega but after setting up she loved it (which is very important!).

Hi Efendy. I would be very interested tu use a 3d omega filters. I have some questions, please if you have the kindness to provide me some information?
I want to use two projectors Panasonic PT-AR100U. with this projector can use filters size : 35 X 47 mm?
3D effect is good? Thank you.
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post #1353 of 2105
3/19/12 at 12:29pm
O.K I've ordered two Optoma 3D-XLs and the filter kit. I'll be using an Epson 9500 and Epson 7500 (virtually the same projectors) with a 120" HP screen. I'll be feeding the 3D-XL boxes from the dual HDMI outs of my Oppo 93. This should be interesting!
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post #1354 of 2105
3/19/12 at 2:15pm
Alright, I couldn't wait for this summer...
I just ordered my kit. I'll be testing it on my Epson Eh TW3500 LCD projectors (Euro version of the Epson Home-Cinema 8100)

The only thing that troubles me is that I'll be away from home next week, so I hope the package manages to cross the Atlantic and get here before Friday or I'll have to wait an other week to get it.
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post #1355 of 2105
3/19/12 at 2:36pm
I'm not here to argue with anyone, I just want those looking into the modulator to know what they are getting into... Can anyone explain what this reply meant and what was wrong with my post???

Quote:
"The polarized modulator is also acting the same way active glasses would therefore you are still cutting brightness in half, and since the HD33 is 120hz no extra black frames can be added so you are increasing the chance of ghosting even more. The only single projector system that may beat a dual stack for under 3k are the projectors with 480hz panels like the AE7000."

hey. You have it all wrong, again ( the active passive pissing contest).

Still no military grade stuff in commercial, anywhere.

Hopefully once laser is here, things settle for better.

I'd rule out passive sooner, because those silverscreens are crapty, and those projectors you use for passive projection ( "flickerfree" ) are , well, super-messy from a time domain perspective.
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post #1356 of 2105
3/19/12 at 4:05pm
Not sure at all what is being talked about there.
I see the desire for a modulator. Easy = good, usually. Stacking projectors is scary. This is why LG went with the approach they did with the passive CF3D. They put both projectors in one box. They just made it way too expensive. The modulator doesn't allow gaming at 1080p 60 per eye, and still has the flicker problems of active, and is too expensive.
Someone just needs to come out with a box containing two projectors with a single output lens. The savings on the second lens should pay for the extra mirrors to unite the projector images. It should cost around 2k since the projectors we are talking about are 1k. Throw in the dual 3DXL's in the same box for another 600 and you are less than 3k for a great passive 3D system.
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post #1357 of 2105
3/19/12 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Not sure at all what is being talked about there.
I see the desire for a modulator. Easy = good, usually. Stacking projectors is scary. This is why LG went with the approach they did with the passive CF3D. They put both projectors in one box. They just made it way too expensive. The modulator doesn't allow gaming at 1080p 60 per eye, and still has the flicker problems of active, and is too expensive.
Someone just needs to come out with a box containing two projectors with a single output lens. The savings on the second lens should pay for the extra mirrors to unite the projector images. It should cost around 2k since the projectors we are talking about are 1k. Throw in the dual 3DXL's in the same box for another 600 and you are less than 3k for a great passive 3D system.

YES! two projectors, one box, one lens. Would be even better with slots to insert Omega filters and take them out when watching 2D, and forget the 3DXL's just build the functionality into the projector. If a company like Acer did this and had the black levels of their newest projector I would buy it today!
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post #1358 of 2105
3/19/12 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

YES! two projectors, one box, one lens. Would be even better with slots to insert Omega filters and take them out when watching 2D, and forget the 3DXL's just build the functionality into the projector. If a company like Acer did this and had the black levels of their newest projector I would buy it today!

this is a very cool projector. i would love to work with someone wanting to build a unit like this and intergrate my filters with a motor drive to slide them out.
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post #1359 of 2105
3/19/12 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

this is a very cool projector. i would love to work with someone wanting to build a unit like this and intergrate my filters with a motor drive to slide them out.

Any chance you will contact companies to make this happen, I think it would do well at the right price point. The LG to too expensive and doesn't deliver a good HT picture. Also would there need to be two separate DI or would just one work?
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post #1360 of 2105
3/19/12 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Any chance you will contact companies to make this happen, I think it would do well at the right price point. The LG to too expensive and doesn't deliver a good HT picture. Also would there need to be two separate DI or would just one work?

I am looking into contacting several places to market our filter technology but its pretty much just me and one co worker at this point. there is no reason a less expensive unit cant be made that works like the lg. it could be done with a single light engine in several layouts i can think of. i do like DLP and with some of the newest developments in that area i would work on. much higher contrast and better blue. lcos would be my choice as well to work with but there are many ways. the right OLED source i feel would be best, not lasers, really expensive they are.
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post #1361 of 2105
3/19/12 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

I am looking into contacting several places to market our filter technology but its pretty much just me and one co worker at this point. there is no reason a less expensive unit cant be made that works like the lg. it could be done with a single light engine in several layouts i can think of. i do like DLP and with some of the newest developments in that area i would work on. much higher contrast and better blue. lcos would be my choice as well to work with but there are many ways. the right OLED source i feel would be best, not lasers, really expensive they are.

Do you think it would need two dynamic iris?
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post #1362 of 2105
3/19/12 at 9:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post


Do you think it would need two dynamic iris?

Where is the iris located?. It would definitely be a challenge to do this with a single set of electronics from a firmware perspective.
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post #1363 of 2105
3/19/12 at 11:56pm
I am sure the iris is part of the lens. It would probably be rigged to either the left or right projector, no need for a single set of electronics. Of course if we are talking cheaper projectors we are probably not talking dynamic iris.
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post #1364 of 2105
3/20/12 at 5:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondaedg View Post

Where is the iris located?. It would definitely be a challenge to do this with a single set of electronics from a firmware perspective.

you could drive the two iris from the same controller as the adjustment would be the same for both i imagine. would be no good to have one eye adjust in a dual light engine unit.
but if the contrast was very high to start would you need it?
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post #1365 of 2105
3/20/12 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

you could drive the two iris from the same controller as the adjustment would be the same for both i imagine. would be no good to have one eye adjust in a dual light engine unit.
but if the contrast was very high to start would you need it?

If the consumer wants deeper blacks and it's a dual dlp unit, then you will need an iris. If it's a dual JVC RS55, then you probably don't need it.
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post #1366 of 2105
3/20/12 at 8:20am
A little bit more feedback..

After watching some other movies, I can say that some reds might need color correction. Initially I watched a couple of animations and didnt realize any problem with reds or any other color. But some reds in three Musketeers were too bright. I had this problem also with dolby as well but at a bigger scale and with other colors.
What do you think motorman? is it about UHP vs Xenon lamps?

3D is very good though. I was blown away by Imax Sea Rex. Effects were very nice.
I noticed a little bit of internal reflection in the lenses. I dont know how to prevent this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sorini View Post

Hi Efendy. I would be very interested tu use a 3d omega filters. I have some questions, please if you have the kindness to provide me some information?
I want to use two projectors Panasonic PT-AR100U. with this projector can use filters size : 35 X 47 mm?
3D effect is good? Thank you.

3D effect is very good as above.
Can you tell me how far you're going to place your projector from the screen?
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post #1367 of 2105
3/20/12 at 8:45am
[quote=efendy;21802442]A little bit more feedback..

After watching some other movies, I can say that some reds might need color correction. Initially I watched a couple of animations and didnt realize any problem with reds or any other color. But some reds in three Musketeers were too bright. I had this problem also with dolby as well but at a bigger scale and with other colors.
What do you think motorman? is it about UHP vs Xenon lamps?

3D is very good though. I was blown away by Imax Sea Rex. Effects were very nice.
I noticed a little bit of internal reflection in the lenses. I dont know how to prevent this.



3D effect is very good as above.
Can you tell me how far you're going to place your projector from the screen?
Thanks for response. Distance between the projector and screen will be approximately 7 meters.
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post #1368 of 2105
3/20/12 at 8:47am
Can you tell me how far you're going to place your projector from the screen?

Thanks for response. Distance between the projector and screen will be approximately 7 meters.
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post #1369 of 2105
3/20/12 at 10:21am
there is a lack of red in UHP lamps and this can cause small issues with red balance in a filtering system like ours. xenon is far better. sorry the images are not better but it shows the issue mostly. they both do not have as much red as they do green or blue but the xenon is better in that it is not dominant with green and violet like the UHP
LL
LL
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post #1370 of 2105
3/20/12 at 12:00pm
Any updates on that edge-blending demux super box you posted?
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post #1371 of 2105
3/20/12 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

If you use a PC you still have to be a little careful for your choice of graphics card, otherwise you'll run into Sync problems between the projectors.
Ideally, you'd want a graphics card able to lock multiple outputs together (frame-lock). This feature is only available on professional graphics cards like Nvidia Quadro or AMD Firepro.

However I found a work-around for consumer cards which only works on AMD Radeon cards : Eyefinity.
Eyefinity is designed for gaming with multiple monitors side by side, it merges the desktop of multiple displays into a single large surface so that windows and applications believe there is only one single giant panoramic screen, and the AMD driver tries to lock the displays in sync (hidden frame-lock). All you have to do then is to display your 3D content side by side full screen.
So far only AMD Radeons support this for 2 displays.
Nvidia Geforce have a similar feature but you have to have two graphics cards in SLI and it requires 3 displays (you can't use just 2)

There's just a little catch with using AMD Eyefinity : if you want perfect frame-lock : you have to use absolutely identical outputs : from the plug at the back of the card, to the possible converters you might want to use, so be careful at the available plugs at the back of the card when you buy it : I've got the latest AMD Radeon 7990 gaming card and I had to buy extra mini-DisplayPort adapters to make it work.
If you try to use different outputs, you'll loose the sync and get tearing on one of the displays.

Blackshark I've been using 3x active displays for 3d vision surround for a while so I forgotten the various options for trying to get gaming working in dual display. The details in your thread in 3d mtbs forum seem slightly out of date now

I think you had a more up to date thread (was this in French?) that covered the various options but I can't find it

I'm not sure if dual projection is an option on nvidia cards unless using ddd drivers (do they have dual projector support)

What games have you managed to get working? Do all amd hd 3d games work easily?

Thanks
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post #1372 of 2105
3/20/12 at 5:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by efendy View Post

A little bit more feedback..

After watching some other movies, I can say that some reds might need color correction. Initially I watched a couple of animations and didnt realize any problem with reds or any other color. But some reds in three Musketeers were too bright. I had this problem also with dolby as well but at a bigger scale and with other colors.
What do you think motorman? is it about UHP vs Xenon lamps?

3D is very good though. I was blown away by Imax Sea Rex. Effects were very nice.
I noticed a little bit of internal reflection in the lenses. I dont know how to prevent this.

I presume the more modern red rich UHP lamps should help with this a lot.
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post #1373 of 2105
3/20/12 at 7:07pm
Since LG already has something similar I think they should try boxing two CF181D projectors into one box, I honestly don't care how big is it as long as the filters can be put inside without having any overheating problems. Not only could they claim to have the best 3D projector under 5K they would also be able to display two images on one display (the user would just have to swap the lens so each set of glasses is R or L only. Just imagine playing games online with you friend and not having to use split screen.
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post #1374 of 2105
3/20/12 at 8:15pm
also is the new sony 4K a passive projector, and if so how are they making it passive?
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post #1375 of 2105
3/21/12 at 3:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

looks like a very good choice for a dual stack 3D passive setup to me

Hello motorman45. I have a question. Filter size: 35 X 47 mm can be used with the projector Panasonic PT-AR100U? Are large enough? Distance between the projector and screen will be approximately 7 meters.
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post #1376 of 2105
3/21/12 at 3:10am
Hello rdjam. Can recommend a HDMI 3D splitter FULL HD. From 3d blu-ray player to bring 3D image to the 2 units OPTOMA 3D-Xl?
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post #1377 of 2105
3/21/12 at 3:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorini View Post

Can you tell me how far you're going to place your projector from the screen?

Thanks for response. Distance between the projector and screen will be approximately 7 meters.

Hi Sorini,

My projector is relatively short throw and I dont have any problems with the size of the filters even though i do 1.5x zoom. your projector has longer throw and you are projecting from 7 meters. I dont know what size screen you will have but I am guessing you should be alright with a standard size screen (100" 120" ?).
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post #1378 of 2105
3/21/12 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

there is a lack of red in UHP lamps and this can cause small issues with red balance in a filtering system like ours. xenon is far better. sorry the images are not better but it shows the issue mostly. they both do not have as much red as they do green or blue but the xenon is better in that it is not dominant with green and violet like the UHP

Yep, I am running your filters with two Panasonic AE3000 and the experience is brighter than Dolby filters but I would like to make left/right images even more coherent getting the saturated reds right and some other areas as in very dark and very bright pictures. What I need is a DIY guide with testpatterns to help me se all the colors areas where most differences can arise. Since you, the creator of the filters, know alot of science behind this; would it be possible for you to create a set of Omega Optical 3D test patterns for exactly this purpose?
I think it would add value to your product even though you market it as not needing color correction. An untrained eye might not need color correction but as people use differently aged projectors, lamps, UHP lamps and even different projectors for cost reasons it would be nice to have. 1080p SBS format would be the best.

In any case, calibrating the two projectors exactly the same is always needed and if one is off even a little bit some scenes become problematic like very dark movies in caves and such where one projector might come to total black sooner than the other and bright skies where all the bright tones must be equally balanced.

But one thing is for sure, there is absolutely no ghosting and plenty of brightness.

Scenes with visible red problems (at least in my setup):
How to train your dragon (inside the dragon cave)
Despicable me (Gru visits the Evil Bank)
Cars 2 (Most red cars in the movie and some neon lights)
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post #1379 of 2105
3/21/12 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by efendy View Post

Hi Sorini,

My projector is relatively short throw and I dont have any problems with the size of the filters even though i do 1.5x zoom. your projector has longer throw and you are projecting from 7 meters. I dont know what size screen you will have but I am guessing you should be alright with a standard size screen (100" 120" ?).

My screen will be large enough in diameter 240 inch.I used the calculator to projectioncentral.com, and for 240 inch diagonal image must use the maximum zoom 2X and projection to be made from 7 meters. You have smaller size filters to your projectors?
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post #1380 of 2105
3/21/12 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by horizone View Post

What I need is a DIY guide with testpatterns to help me se all the colors areas where most differences can arise. Since you, the creator of the filters, know alot of science behind this; would it be possible for you to create a set of Omega Optical 3D test patterns for exactly this purpose?
I think it would add value to your product even though you market it as not needing color correction. An untrained eye might not need color correction but as people use differently aged projectors, lamps, UHP lamps and even different projectors for cost reasons it would be nice to have. 1080p SBS format would be the best.

I second this idea. Test patterns specific to your filters will be greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Scenes with visible red problems (at least in my setup):
How to train your dragon (inside the dragon cave)
Despicable me (Gru visits the Evil Bank)
Cars 2 (Most red cars in the movie and some neon lights)

I watched despicable me today and yes evil bank scene had plenty of problems with red. But wow, my audience was blown away with the quality of 3D. It was crystal clear. I figured out today that the internal reflection in the lenses was I guess mostly caused by my prescription glasses. I then wore them over the 3D glasses and most of the glare was gone.

I can also add Three Musketeers in which the red clothes of Cardinal Richelieu is problematic.
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