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The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 51

post #1501 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Old IMAX systems used the 0/90 - modern IMAX systems use 45/135

Thanks - That what I concluded for my web search (at least the current digital IMAX uses 45/135 and at some point IMAX had used 0/90).
post #1502 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I don't mind paying bucks for this, someone's usually got to do it first for folks to start manufacturing. But it must be able to demux Nvidia 120 hz 1080p 3DVision for me to take the plunge. Gotta get that 1080p60 goodness to each of my projectors!

Couldn't agree more with this point.
post #1503 of 2268
My Omega filters and glasses arrived (thanks motorman).

First impression of the glasses isn't good I'm afraid. These are much too loose fitting for me and slide off if I look down briefly. The lenses look to be exactly the same size as the dolby glass lenses so I thought I could switch into those frames but on closer inspection the dolby lenses have been partially cut away round the nose so unfortunately that won't work. The reflection of these glasses isn't as bad as the dolby ones, but still not good unfortunately.

I have yet to try these with the projectors as I haven't had much time, but before I go buying another 3d-xl box, I was going to use a pc to test. (Worried about blackshark's comments before I buy another).

Can anyone recommend the easiest way to test a blu-ray on pc for dual projection? Can steroscopic player output to dual projection setup up. (Is it still unable to play direct from disc- so will I have to unecrypt the disc using something like makemkv?)
Thanks - hoping this has moved on since I last looked and the process is easier than it used to be.

Also regarding blackshark's comments on his colour issues. Previously there was good feedback from others (can't remember who). Would be interested to know what projector's you were using to see how specific the issue is.

Thanks.
post #1504 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondaedg View Post

Keep in mind many of the newer blu ray players and AVR receivers offer dual HDMI outputs. I know my new Panasonic Blu ray 310 player has dual hdmi out.

I think you'll find that in "not as new" BD players and higher end receivers. The reason that the first gen 3D BD players had 2 outputs was usually to compensate for the lack of 3D Compatible AVRs. That way you could output old fashioned 1.3 HDMI to the receiver and new fangled 3D 1.4 HDMI to the 3D display and not have to upgrade your receiver.

Sometimes the 2nd HDMI port was audio only, as well.

I think this "feature" has been disappearing lately on BD players due to the standards not being so new.
post #1505 of 2268
I bought my Onkyo 809 partialy because it had dual outputs.
post #1506 of 2268
Hi!

I had some stutter regarding the subtitles in my passive 3D setup where I use Oppo-93 as a playback device and its HMDI 1 is the main output to the splitter, which then leads the signal to 2 x Optoma 3D-XL:s and after that to my 2 x JVC DLA-HD1 projectors.

I decided to upgrade my firmware for the Oppo to the one released in December and I did the factory reset and unplugged also the power cord, after which I reinput the old values (as well as I could remember). However, after the firmware upgrade my HDMI 1 does not display any picture on my videoprojectors! Was this a known issue or is there some setting that I might have not configured correctly?

I do not want to upgrade my firmware any further in the fear that I would lose the ISO-support from my Oppo-93.

Any advice on how to proceed here?

Here is my original question:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21855473

Thanks!
post #1507 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

So back on topic so to speak. for the ultimate 3D passive system aside from the filter tech what is the setup ?

1. HDMI demux box or PC / HTPC ?
2. a pair of 1080p native DLP or LCD, 3LCD, LcOS/D-ILA ?
3. Gain screen or not ? ( black diamond ? )

ive been thinking of getting either two optoma HD20 or Epson 8350's and fabricating a portable rack that includes either the PC of a demux box. I appreciate your ideas and thoughts .

1. HDMI demux (KISS principle for J6P, which prefer simplicity of iPad to PC). The 501-lite option sounds like a winner.

2. I prefer LCOS for screen fill and best native CR/blacks. Best options are older PJs with no active 3D support to keep it cheap.

3. Seems like DaLite HP are a forum favorite. I liked mine and only switched to 1.3 gain screen after moving because it was used/cheap and perfect 2.35:1 dimensions for my new HT room. More gain for 3D is likely always better.
post #1508 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

With the Omega filters would an anamorphic lens be a problem?

Why would you use filters with an Anamorphic lens? You use the filters to create a passive 3D picture from TWO projectors. I order to project a scoped 2.40:1 image, you'd need two lens. That would be very expensive and make stacking focus even more of a pain. This was addressed in post 305.

It's also the major obstacle for my decision to hold off on any two PJ solution. A single lens solution not only provides a more elegant solution but also is more utilitarian for CIH setups with A-lens. Not sure why anyone would want to use a curved screen either unless it was in conjunction with an A-lens.
post #1509 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunti View Post

My Omega filters and glasses arrived (thanks motorman).

First impression of the glasses isn't good I'm afraid. These are much too loose fitting for me and slide off if I look down briefly. The lenses look to be exactly the same size as the dolby glass lenses so I thought I could switch into those frames but on closer inspection the dolby lenses have been partially cut away round the nose so unfortunately that won't work. The reflection of these glasses isn't as bad as the dolby ones, but still not good unfortunately.

I have yet to try these with the projectors as I haven't had much time, but before I go buying another 3d-xl box, I was going to use a pc to test. (Worried about blackshark's comments before I buy another).

Can anyone recommend the easiest way to test a blu-ray on pc for dual projection? Can steroscopic player output to dual projection setup up. (Is it still unable to play direct from disc- so will I have to unecrypt the disc using something like makemkv?)
Thanks - hoping this has moved on since I last looked and the process is easier than it used to be.

Also regarding blackshark's comments on his colour issues. Previously there was good feedback from others (can't remember who). Would be interested to know what projector's you were using to see how specific the issue is.

Thanks.


You can fit the omega lenses in the older dolby frame if you can find a diamond grinder and grind that inner edge down to fir, ive done exactly that to test. make sure you keep the orientation right on the lenses.
also if you use a heat gun you can bend the ear stalks to fit your head with the omega frame. ive also done that to fit my son right. its nylon.


i use a dual core pc with an nvidia quadro and it works perfectly.


stereoscopic player will play a blueray disk just read the article on their website about it.

i realize with some LCD units there is different color spectrum than the DLP usits weve tested on. i can offer an alternative for LCD that should help any issues.
post #1510 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunti View Post

First impression of the glasses isn't good I'm afraid. These are much too loose fitting for me and slide off if I look down briefly.

Can anyone recommend the easiest way to test a blu-ray on pc for dual projection? Can steroscopic player output to dual projection setup up. (Is it still unable to play direct from disc- so will I have to unecrypt the disc using something like makemkv?)
Thanks - hoping this has moved on since I last looked and the process is easier than it used to be.

Glasses
Yes, I forgot to mention that about the glasses : they do slide off my nose too, I noticed the branches don't have that little curve to hook the ears. It might be part of the reason why they slide so easily.

Playback of BluRay3D :

The last time I did it was a while ago when I ripped Avatar, it was really painful after that, I decided to just download other people rips.
I tried to look for recent alternatives just yesterday since I bought a bunch of new movies.
I cannot run the dual-projectors from BluRay 3D playback software (PowerDVD9 with BR3D support came with the drive), none of them support dual-projectors, or even side by side output. I also get HDCP compliance issues when using Eyefinity.
I used tools from DVDFAB, their free tools don't support the BluRay3D protection so I used the 30days trial of the full version.
Ripping to an .iso file (~1 hour) works nicely to remove the protection, I haven't tried stereoscopic player but PowerDVD no longer complained about HDCP so I guess the encryption is indeed removed. I still haven't tried Stereoscopic player's MVC decoding capability, neither did I try to do a full re-encode using DVDFAB, but I do know that Stereoscopic player supports both the regular dual-head outputs and the Eyefinity trick using side by side at full ratio, so if it can play MVC, it should work.

About my colour problems :
I started all over again from the projectors default setting, and tweaked using the "forget about matching colours, just reduce the eye rivalry as much as I can" strategy. I finally obtained a result that I like.
I used the highest brightness modes available ("dynamic" colour mode) at 6500K. I have already posted the picture on the previous page of what the default colours look like out of my Epson EH TW3500.

-step one : the white point : I used the RGB gain setting.
The left eye has a strong green tint, the right eye has a strong pink tint.
I set the left green and right blue gains to -30 (minimum allowed by the projector), and reduced the right red gain a little bit. Whites aren't identical, but they're close, and don't cause eye rivalry.

-step two : primary colours : I used the advanced RGBCMY settings to tweak each individual primary and secondary colours separately.
The first setting to tweak is brightness, and only then change the hue I noticed that a very small amount of brightness disparity caused a lot of eyestrain, whereas colour hue had much more room before starting to cause problems.

The default yellow and the blue were very close to each other to start with,
magenta was very wrong by default but I could match them perfectly with very little tweaking,
green was still strongly unbalanced : but I managed to get it close
red was hard because the left eye had a very strong brightness but little saturation while the right eye was darker but was extremely deeply saturated (I think I've never seen such a deep red on a screen, ever)
cyan was the most annoying one : for some reason, I couldn't make the hue blue enough in the right eye, whenever I tried to push the hue towards blue ended up with white, It took me a long time to find the correct hue combination to get a result that looks approximately the same colour in both eyes.

-step tree : all the in-betweens
Once the main primary and secondary colours were set, I hoped I was done and started watching some movies : I couldn't believe how wrong I had been : every intermediate colours were completely wrong.
The problem was in the RGBCMY colour correction, the brightness and saturation settings act together as a contrast setting for each individual primary and secondary colour. When I did the previous step, I did it with the simple primary colour test pattern (the one shown in the screenshots on the previous page), so I didn't see that I was crushing some colour contrasts in one eye and/or exploding the contrast in the other.
I searched for colour wheels and colour charts on google images, and used a bunch of them.
One of the most interesting one was this one http://realcolorwheel.com/tablet.htg...nwide72dpi.png. It appears it doesn't cover the entire black to colour to white range, but it was extremely useful to notice big disparities, and where colours were dominating others.
However, even though the charts were very useful they cause some visual overload. I got a lots of surprises testing with actual content that some very specific colours creating bad surprises.

In the end. I managed to get settings that almost please me without killing too much brightness. I am still much lower than what I used to have with standard linear polarising filters (I'm not even talking about the LCD-optimised SPAR filters). However, the Omega filters offer one thing which is priceless : no crosstalk, and for that alone I probably won't be using the polarising filters again.
I am getting more and more satisfied with these filters, even though I still regret I have to kill so much of the light output to correct for the spectrum unbalances of my projectors.
I'd be very curious to read your results regarding the colour in detail to compare with what I get.

I'm interested by this alternative you are suggesting Motorman for LCD projectors. I received your PM, I am just waiting for final checks and yunti's results to try your alternative.
The thing is, I'm not sure whether if it's a lamp issue, a colour filter issue or if it's an LCD issue.

Screens :
I tried with the silverscreen and without (projecting directly on the white wall), it's the first time I try to project anything directly on this wall.
The quality of the picture changed dramatically from the silverscreen.
The lack of the sparkling grain caused by the aluminium flakes immediately made the picture super-smooth. Brightness is obviously lower (the silverscreen had 2.4 gain) but it's black levels which take the biggest hit, I only realise now how much the grey screen and the high directivity combine to reject the ambient light of the white walls. It makes me seriously doubt about which screens I should consider for replacement. I now understand how much I underestimated the qualities of my silverscreen.
post #1511 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

I bought my Onkyo 809 partialy because it had dual outputs.

Same for me with my Denon - 2 HDMI outputs were on my must have list
post #1512 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Why would you use filters with an Anamorphic lens? You use the filters to create a passive 3D picture from TWO projectors. I order to project a scoped 2.40:1 image, you'd need two lens. That would be very expensive and make stacking focus even more of a pain. This was addressed in post 305.

It's also the major obstacle for my decision to hold off on any two PJ solution. A single lens solution not only provides a more elegant solution but also is more utilitarian for CIH setups with A-lens. Not sure why anyone would want to use a curved screen either unless it was in conjunction with an A-lens.

I agree, I think anamorphic lenses would be a very bad idea for a dual projector 3D setup. I can't imagine the grief in trying to align the two projectors, when an AL that's even a smidgen off will throw it out of whack, not to mention build sample variability with the lenses themselves.

Trust me, stick to the zoom method for this application - the projectors we have been talking about mostly have very good black levels, and the PQ is superior, since there is no pixel-mapping to change the aspect ratio.

I regard the pixel mapping as damaging the PQ just as much as digital keystone correction.

In fact for my next theater, I am going back to a huge 16 x 9 aspect ratio screen, with fixed zoom and alignment on two light cannons. I will simply have top and bottom blackouts slide into place when showing 2.40 material.

But anyway, back to the point - I think that trying to add anamorphic lense allignment to the mix on a dual pj 3D system would just add frustration. It's pretty simple otherwise, but could get complicated with that addition.
post #1513 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I agree, I think anamorphic lenses would be a very bad idea for a dual projector 3D setup. I can't imagine the grief in trying to align the two projectors, when an AL that's even a smidgen off will throw it out of whack, not to mention build sample variability with the lenses themselves.

Trust me, stick to the zoom method for this application - the projectors we have been talking about mostly have very good black levels, and the PQ is superior, since there is no pixel-mapping to change the aspect ratio.

I regard the pixel mapping as damaging the PQ just as much as digital keystone correction.

In fact for my next theater, I am going back to a huge 16 x 9 aspect ratio screen, with fixed zoom and alignment on two light cannons. I will simply have top and bottom blackouts slide into place when showing 2.40 material.

But anyway, back to the point - I think that trying to add anamorphic lense allignment to the mix on a dual pj 3D system would just add frustration. It's pretty simple otherwise, but could get complicated with that addition.

Don't worry I was just curious if there was a projector built like the LG with a single lens, would a single A-Lens mess up the extinction
post #1514 of 2268
Quote:


I'm interested by this alternative you are suggesting Motorman for LCD projectors. I received your PM, I am just waiting for final checks and yunti's results to try your alternative.

Is their a lcd specific version of the kit availabe now?
post #1515 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post


Don't worry I was just curious if there was a projector built like the LG with a single lens, would a single A-Lens mess up the extinction

Good question. If I had to guess, I'd say there might be a risk it could throw the alignment of just enough light to possibly make ghosting an issue. But that's just a guess.
post #1516 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

You can fit the omega lenses in the older dolby frame if you can find a diamond grinder and grind that inner edge down to fir, ive done exactly that to test. make sure you keep the orientation right on the lenses.
also if you use a heat gun you can bend the ear stalks to fit your head with the omega frame. ive also done that to fit my son right. its nylon.


i use a dual core pc with an nvidia quadro and it works perfectly.


stereoscopic player will play a blueray disk just read the article on their website about it.

i realize with some LCD units there is different color spectrum than the DLP usits weve tested on. i can offer an alternative for LCD that should help any issues.

Glasses:
That's alright I don't have a diamond grinder (!), so I'll just leave the frames for now, but if you come up with a better frame please let me know.

HTPC Playback:
It seems like the easiest playback option is decrypt using makemkv and playback with stereoscopic player. I don't have an amd card at the moment. Has anyone else done dual projector playback on an nvidia consumer card (which doesn't have the eyefinity frame lock option blackshark has mentioned previously) and found a suitable solution that doesn't have framesync issues. (I do have a dual nvidia 580 sli setup so that may get round the issue - but no idea if this is true).

Filters & Projectors
The only projectors I have of the same type at the moment are DLP (but consumer ones not Xenon lamps) - motorman have you tested the filters with these with good results?
I do have one epson LCD projector to hand too (but not a pair unfortunately), so I could do a test with this but it's a bit limited testing one channel (L/R) at a time.
Ultimately I was expecting to purchase a couple of new LCD based projectors to work with your filters and depending what works best would direct what I purchase. It would be good to get feedback from you motorman on what type of consumer projectors work well - regular LCD, non-xenon dlp, red rich bulbs etc... Would be good if you are able to test some consumer projectors in your lab, now you are selling to consumers and give us feedback.
Can you expand a bit more on the LCD version of the filters?

Blackshark - as above will be testing 2 dlp's first, and I have limited time at the moment unfortunately (so most likely won't be able to test and feedback until after Easter, in case you are holding out for further feedback). Thanks for your detailed post.

Screens:
Intersting point on the screens and the graininess was one of the main reasons which put me off polarised. When I tested samples of most of the main silver screen including your Harkness one, I found it really off-putting (as well as the hot-spotting iissue on demos I looked at). Admittedly i never did get round to testing the Black Diamond, although that seems to be restricted to smaller sizes unfortunately.

rdjam did you get hold of the omega filters? How did you find them on your BD screen?

I have a Da-Lite HP to hand (which I hate the mechanism on and am tempted to chuck but that's another story), so will give feedback using that over the next couple of weeks.


oh and any good suggesting for holding the filters in place easily? Thanks
post #1517 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

here is a different demux box being offered from the same guys that make the geobox 501. this seems to be decent all in one unit. it is not hdmi but could be i think. i tried to upload the pdf i have on the other units but its too big.

I didn't see the attachment before you posted before on the geobox-g300. (attachments don't seem to show up on the ipad).

Anyway this looks to be a good option, it seems to output 1080p at 24hz into L and R channels which makes it the only single box 3d demuxer that does this. This would make it preferable to 2 x 3dxl's for me. Less cables, power supplies etc....

It is DVI output but this could be easily made HDMI with a small passive adaptor.
Did they mention a price for this? (I get error messages when I try to use the contact mailbox on their website unfortunately).

You also mentioned an HDMI version I presume that would be some time away from being available?
post #1518 of 2268
Motorguy, I really think the Panasonic PT-AR100U is the projector to beat for brightness/quality/value/installation. The problem with affordable DLP's is they have no lens shift, so stacking isn't going to work well. LCOS fail in the brightness/value category. I think you should to optomize your filters for this projector.
I agree with others, for demo purposes, the Da-lite High Power is going to be an excellent screen.
I would also change your glasses lens so they fit in other frames.
post #1519 of 2268
I've been using two of the AR100U's and have found it to be a good fit. I watched a lot of content last night in an effort to find some of the eye rivalry some other folks have seen, and was able to notice a little.

I finally found a little on the some of the dark blue colors during the first few minutes of Hugo, and on some of the green (tree's, grass) in Yogi Bear.

Beyond these issues, i think the AR100U's are a great fit, 1800-2000 calibrated lumens even when not in dynamic mode, lens shift, etc.
post #1520 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunti View Post

Blackshark - as above will be testing 2 dlp's first, and I have limited time at the moment unfortunately (so most likely won't be able to test and feedback until after Easter, in case you are holding out for further feedback). Thanks for your detailed post.

oh and any good suggesting for holding the filters in place easily? Thanks

I couldn't use my old holders for the omega filters, I went to my local hardware store to see if I could make a holder with a hinge, but I couldn't find the parts needed without having to drill (I don't have any hardware to do those things), so I hacked a very simple and rudimentary solution : i used sewing thread to hang the filters in the air in front of the lens.
post #1521 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yunti View Post

Admittedly i never did get round to testing the Black Diamond, although that seems to be restricted to smaller sizes unfortunately.

rdjam did you get hold of the omega filters? How did you find them on your BD screen?

I have a Da-Lite HP to hand (which I hate the mechanism on and am tempted to chuck but that's another story), so will give feedback using that over the next couple of weeks.


oh and any good suggesting for holding the filters in place easily? Thanks

I have the Omega lenses now, but have been travelling extensively.

I won't be back home until after Easter - at which point I'm going to try to carve out a couple of nights to burn through some tests.

For my polarised filters, I just used two stretches of black electrical tape hanging from a box above the stacked projectors. I position the two lenses down the tape at the appropriate positions in front of the PJs and fold the tape over on itself all the way down, so that it also sticks to both sides of the edges of the lenses.

Very similar to the thread solution outlined by Blackshark above. Mine is very makeshift, but it has held up for over a year now - lol

BTW - BD is not really limited on size - my BDII 2.70 is 133" diagonal
post #1522 of 2268
Seems like USPS is pretty slow. I ordered the filters on March 20 (and confirmed on March 20) and I'm still waiting almost 2 weeks later. It only took one day to get the two Optoma 3D-XL boxes.

Aren't the Panasonic AR100s LCD projectors that use Epson's panels? the Epson and Panasonic should have similar results I would think, but maybe I'm completely out to lunch.
post #1523 of 2268
Hey Blackshark! I noticed on another forum that you were having issues using your ati 7970 and 2 x 1 eyefinity. Just got my 7970 in, whats the status of using that card with your setup?

Thanks!

Tim
post #1524 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

Hey Blackshark! I noticed on another forum that you were having issues using your ati 7970 and 2 x 1 eyefinity. Just got my 7970 in, whats the status of using that card with your setup?

Thanks!

Tim

It's was fixed by a driver update, the initial drivers when the card was released had a bug. It's disappeared with Catalyst 12.2. V-sync now works properly.
I am using the two mini-Displayport outputs out of the cords and I connect the projectors using active miniDP->DVI converters and an additional passive DVI -> Hdmi adapter.
I haven't tried to mix the outputs though (use one DVI and one hdmi).
post #1525 of 2268
Thanks for the info. Do you have a third display plugged in as well or just the those two?
post #1526 of 2268
I have my regular monitor hooked up on the DVI port (actually it's a Zalman passive 3D monitor)
post #1527 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I have the Omega lenses now, but have been travelling extensively.

I won't be back home until after Easter - at which point I'm going to try to carve out a couple of nights to burn through some tests.

For my polarised filters, I just used two stretches of black electrical tape hanging from a box above the stacked projectors. I position the two lenses down the tape at the appropriate positions in front of the PJs and fold the tape over on itself all the way down, so that it also sticks to both sides of the edges of the lenses.

Very similar to the thread solution outlined by Blackshark above. Mine is very makeshift, but it has held up for over a year now - lol

BTW - BD is not really limited on size - my BDII 2.70 is 133" diagonal

I'll probably just hack something together in that case along the lines you suggested

On your BD size. I presume yours has a seam? The maximum seamless 16:9 screen is 113"
post #1528 of 2268
the latest information i got on the geobox 300 all in one is they are new and still being developed but should be available in may. the price well near 500 in small quantity but have curved screen deformation and hdmi in with dvi out for two projectors. pretty much what the 501 box has but no edge blending and in a smaller box and for less $$
i will try to get one to test.
post #1529 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

the latest information i got on the geobox 300 all in one is they are new and still being developed but should be available in may. the price well near 500 in small quantity but have curved screen deformation and hdmi in with dvi out for two projectors. pretty much what the 501 box has but no edge blending and in a smaller box and for less $$
i will try to get one to test.

For that price I would prefer the geobox 300 to 2 3dxl's. I had thought that version was available now. Looks like I'll hold on that option until May.
post #1530 of 2268
The G-300 box is the one that's now available and has DVI inputs and outputs. The new box being introduced by VNS is the G-301 which has an HDMI input (HDCP compliant - also, DVI and VGA inputs), and HDMI outputs . It is a lower cost version of the G-501 and has 8 bit processing versus 10 bit processing in the G-501. VNS will be introducing the 301 at the Computex and Infocom conferences.

The G-301 also includes a 2D to 3D conversion system (Ho-hum). There's also talk of a G-500 which includes ethernet control and smart phone protocols. That too, may show up at the conferences mentioned.

EDIT: In looking further, there is no G-500 planned, only the G-500 series which includes the G-501 & G-502 which have been discussed previously. These units include the ethernet control features.

Here's the shot of the backside of the G-301 which you can compare to the one of the G-300, that Motorman previously provided. I think I'll be in Vegas checking out the VNS booth.

 

Geo-Box-G-301.pdf 128.5146484375k . file
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