or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 58

post #1711 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

Why is lens shift an important factor? i would think throw ratio is more key to fit a system into a given space. you can tilt the projector and keystone correct to move the image around as well. ??

My oppinnion is keystone fu*ksup (excuse my language) the picture.
Atleast all the projectors i have used got slightly blurred picture when using keystone.
post #1712 of 2268
Keystoning is not good because you are now using less of the sensor provided

So for example you will use depending on top or bottom keystone

1900 x 1080
post #1713 of 2268
that makes sense. i just have not had the problem of projector placement to where i need lens shift or keystone.
i only ask as it seems there are some good projectors without lens shift that are affordable.
post #1714 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post


Why is lens shift an important factor? i would think throw ratio is more key to fit a system into a given space. you can tilt the projector and keystone correct to move the image around as well. ??

KEYSTONE???!!!

Don't use that word around here, you'll lose friends and have bad luck for 7 years! Lol
post #1715 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

that makes sense. i just have not had the problem of projector placement to where i need lens shift or keystone.
i only ask as it seems there are some good projectors without lens shift that are affordable.

In demo setups you can place the pj where you want, but in the home setting lens shift is usually pretty important.
post #1716 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

In demo setups you can place the pj where you want, but in the home setting lens shift is usually pretty important.

I agree.
If you don't have a dedicated home theatre room, you have to find compromises with room layout and pre-existing furniture. A lens shift is an extremely important feature.
post #1717 of 2268
i appriciate your thoughts. not having run into the need yet i just dont know what others may find important. i dont know why DLP projectors dont offer this, there is not much in the optical layout that resticts this from being an option.
post #1718 of 2268
Hi. I tested my system with omega 3d filters. 3D image is incredible, fabulous. Are not enough words to describe 3D quality offered by Omega kit. I saw several 3D technologies in theaters, but Omega offer best 3D image. I used the original filters together with two Panasonic projectors PT-AR100U and I saw no color problem. I'll write here my system configuration:
- 3DBlu Ray Panasonic DMP-BdT320
- Sony hdmi cables that supports 3d signal (5 pieces)
- Cablesson Splitter that supports 3D
- 2 Optoma units 3D-Xl
- 2 Panasonic projector PT-AR100U
- Omega 3D kit.
I have a question. Anyone know what optical cable is compatible with 3D Panasonic blu ray DMP-BdT320? Thank you.
post #1719 of 2268
sorini, I have some questions. Can you confirm that you see no ghosting with your setup by running this test? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291751
I don't quite get it: do these Omega filters polarize image? In that case do you lose vertical resolution like in other passive systems? And how wide is the sweet spot before you begin to see crosstalk and lose 3D effect altogether? And are you able to go 1080p60 in 3D?
post #1720 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

sorini, I have some questions. Can you confirm that you see no ghosting with your setup by running this test? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291751
I don't quite get it: do these Omega filters polarize image? In that case do you lose vertical resolution like in other passive systems? And how wide is the sweet spot before you begin to see crosstalk and lose 3D effect altogether? And are you able to go 1080p60 in 3D?


Elix, this is quite different then how they do it on LG a split the resolution

Here you are getting 2 separate projected images, from 2 different projectors.

Whatever signal you feed it will display. so 2 x 1080p. 1 to left eye one to right eye.

Also the system does not use polarization. No silver screen needed.
post #1721 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

sorini, I have some questions. Can you confirm that you see no ghosting with your setup by running this test? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291751
I don't quite get it: do these Omega filters polarize image? In that case do you lose vertical resolution like in other passive systems? And how wide is the sweet spot before you begin to see crosstalk and lose 3D effect altogether? And are you able to go 1080p60 in 3D?

all the tests ive run on that test pattern would look like this to follow the same test format

Left eye open/right closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> 1
Left eye open/right closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> NOTHING
Right eye open/left closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> NOTHING
Right eye open/left closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 1

and i believe thats the same results most people are getting with the omega filters. look at some of the recent posts.
it is not a polarizing system. take a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiWf_69xHW0

it has no effect on vertical resolution, not even polarizers would do that. what your refering to is the way flat pannel tV's that have passive 3D work. they cut the vertical resolution in half in 3D mode not the case with projectors using any method of 3D
here we are talking about the ideal or ultimate passive 3D system setup and it seems its a dual projector stack so that each eye gets full image all the time. lots of good info in this thread
post #1722 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I don't quite get it: do these Omega filters polarize image? In that case do you lose vertical resolution like in other passive systems? And how wide is the sweet spot before you begin to see crosstalk and lose 3D effect altogether? And are you able to go 1080p60 in 3D?

Other passive systems do not loose resolution. There is one very important thing you need to always keep in mind :
Resolution is a property of the display
Active/passive is a property of the glasses

There is no link between the two, except when sales reps and journalists don't want to spend the time to explain and just rush to conclusions to say "I have only two products on shelf and product X is better than Y".
There are other ways to do 3D for which these shortcuts are not appliable, and dual-projectors is only one of them.

I have run both a passive polarised and the Omega system on my dual-projector. I can run them both at full 1080p60 (with actual 1080p60 per eye). The only requirement is that you need an actual 1080p60 source, at the moment the only one available is to use a computer with dual-outputs. (preferably synchronized outputs)

It is theoretically possible to use a brand new graphics card which supports hdmi1.4 @ 3GHz or DisplayPort 1.2 which both support stereo 1080p60 (Nvidia's and AMD's latest cards have both), but there are no converters available at the moment for dual-projectors.

Regarding viewing angles, with Polarised projection it depends on the quality of the silverscreen. Crosstalk increases with the view angle, for professional screens designed specifically for 3D the manufacturer usually publish charts depicting polarisation extinction ratio variations according to view angle. The best silverscreens typically have poor extinction beyond 20°.
Omega crosstalk is not affected by your position in the room, I tried at home and went all the way up to the wall there was no visible crosstalk, so the viewing angle is the same as the absolute 3D comfort viewing angle due to picture distortion which is generally estimated around 30~35°, regardless of the 3D screen technology : to go beyond you need a VR content that does head-tracking and adapts the projection according to your position in the room.
The only way to get crosstalk from the Omega system is to turn your head far away from the screen (make the screen only visible in the corner of the lens), then you'll see some crosstalk.
post #1723 of 2268
Thanks, guys! You got me really interested, I think I'll find a page in this topic where Omega filters first appeared and start reading from there.

But has anyone actually played in 1080p60 3D on a PC? With TriDef for example?
What would be the top choice for dual projector setup in ~3000$ category (for two projectors)?
post #1724 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Thanks, guys! You got me really interested, I think I'll find a page in this topic where Omega filters first appeared and start reading from there.

But has anyone actually played in 1080p60 3D on a PC? With TriDef for example?
What would be the top choice for dual projector setup in ~3000$ category (for two projectors)?

Hi Elix. You received from motorman45, who is the creator of Omega filters professional information. Omega does not use polarized 3D. You need a white screen with a good gain. I played the picture on the wall of my bedroom and and even so 3D image is fabulous. I have a screen, Harkness Screens Perlux 140 but I not used yet. Anyway,i am not specialist but i believe in what i see,and with omega 3d I saw the best 3D image. I saw a system with linear polarized filters. Not compare with the omega, is not even close. Omega 3D is much better. If you accept one advice, use with confidence Omega kit and will not be disappointed.
post #1725 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

But has anyone actually played in 1080p60 3D on a PC? With TriDef for example?
What would be the top choice for dual projector setup in ~3000$ category (for two projectors)?

I play PC games at 1080p60 3D.
However 1080p is quite heavy on the GPU, you'll need some serious horse power, or play old games to get 60fps throughout the games.

I use Tridef or iZ3D depending on the game, some games work better with one than the other. In some rare cases, I can use the native 3D mode included in some games.
There are two ways to make them run :
-the traditional dual-outs by setting your projectors as extended windows desktops and use the driver's dual-outputs mode (universal, but sync problems if you don't have a professional card like Quadro or Firepro)
-the Eyefinity trick (AMD GPUs only) set your projectors as a 2x1 side by side display group and use the driver's side by side mode, Tridef supports it directly, iZ3D requires you to modify it's config file to make it work.
post #1726 of 2268
Can we get a roll call with your Projectors, screen type and size and which filter your using?
post #1727 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Can we get a roll call with your Projectors, screen type and size and which filter your using?

Projectors : 2x Epson EH TW3500 (euro equivalent to the Epson 8100)
Filters (current) : Omega Optical for LCD
Filters (other) : Omega Optical for DLP, Advisol POLAR-L-50, Advisol SPAR-L-50
Glasses (current) : Omega Optical glasses
Glasses (other) : Stereomax linear polarised glasses
Screen type : Harkness Spectal 240 (silverscreen)
Screen size : 106" diagonal, 16:9 (230x130cm)

A few pics from the Omega Optical system.
For these pics, I removed the silverscreen and shot against the white wall.
Sorry for the poor quality, it's a cell phone.







post #1728 of 2268
If you chose a specific projector DLP or LCD and matched the filters to that projector instead of just the tech, do you think the colors would be much better. Maybe you could offer DLP/LCD filters along with another filter set that is made just for a package you sell with one specific projector.
post #1729 of 2268
I agree but,
how many different light sources are there and in what combination of LCD/DLP projectors are there?Sounds like a nightmare, If we could get the projector companies to all use the same light sources it would be as easy as pie.
If a specific projector rack set up was offered with the kit there would still be questions like, why did you choose that projector?
I am thinking that there are so many high end users like you that have already invested in projectors you would be reluctant to just get rid of your stuff and start fresh for cost alone.
spectrogj
post #1730 of 2268
Sorry,
I meant to say along with light sources, the same type of DLP color wheel or LCD, and dichroic/hotmoirror.
If all the projectors had the same spectral output it would make things easier but a filter would still not be universal because of the different options for adjustments to RGB
on all the projectors
post #1731 of 2268
Anyone know if the Panasonic AE7000 has any internal polarization?
post #1732 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Anyone know if the Panasonic AE7000 has any internal polarization?

Pretty sure it is not polarized
post #1733 of 2268
Are the filters hanging on your projector set up perpendicular to the lamp/ face of the projector lens?
post #1734 of 2268
All LCD projectors will polarize the light when creating the image. All* Panasonic LCD projectors that have "smooth screen" filters depolarize the light just before the lens. So the light that leaves the projector has been depolarized.

I'm not sure if the AE7000 still has the smooth screen filter, so it's possible that it's polarized.
post #1735 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtishd View Post

Anyone know if the Panasonic AE7000 has any internal polarization?

Not polarized, but I don't think anyone would want to buy two AE7000s to build a polarized 3D system since the 7000 is already an active 3D projector. Kinda like buying two Lincolns to use the parts to build a Cadillac. There are better, cheaper alternatives for dual projector 3D systems (unless you just happen to have two).
post #1736 of 2268
BlackShark,
Great photos of your projector output. Are you visually seeing the substantial color differences that show up in these (red/cyan differences), and do you still see those differences through the glasses?
post #1737 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBTO View Post


Not polarized, but I don't think anyone would want to buy two AE7000s to build a polarized 3D system since the 7000 is already an active 3D projector. Kinda like buying two Lincolns to use the parts to build a Cadillac. There are better, cheaper alternatives for dual projector 3D systems (unless you just happen to have two).

Trust me - going dual projector results in far superior 3D to those single projector solutions that use active glasses.

So your analogy is actually the wrong way around.

It's actually more like buying a Cadillac to go off roading, where it's only as good as a Lincoln (single projector) versus putting together a 6 wheel drive amphibious vehicle specifically designed for the task (dual projector).

Until you have seen it, it may be a but difficult to get why people are willing to do it, but once you have, it's one of those smack you in the face moments. It's FAR superior to anything you will see in the theater, especially using those electronic polarity switchers.
post #1738 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Trust me - going dual projector results in far superior 3D to those single projector solutions that use active glasses.

Didn't mean to imply anything else rdjam.

Let me put it this way. I wouldn't use Lincoln OR Cadillac parts to build a great 6 wheel drive amphibious vehicle specifically designed for the task!
post #1739 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBTO View Post

BlackShark,
Great photos of your projector output. Are you visually seeing the substantial color differences that show up in these (red/cyan differences), and do you still see those differences through the glasses?

The differences are significant, but surprisingly, when you put the glasses on the brain is able to fuse them quite well. However when switching from a polarised system to an Omega system, I do feel something is wrong with the colours.

The biggest colour problems are in the right eye :
The main problem is the right eye RED which is completely killed due to the UHP/UHE lamp ouput which shines very little at the right eye red wavelength. (see Motorman's explanation https://sites.google.com/site/passiv...tioninprolog20)

There are some secondary issues with Green (too bright and a bit yellow-ish in the right eye), Cyan (not saturated, appears white in the right eye) and Magenta (too blue in the right eye). However these can be tweaked with my projector individual hue setting for RGBCMY primaries, and brought back to a minor colour issue. It's still there, but it doesn't flashes in my brain, the RED problem though is not fixable and does create eye rivalry whenever a pure red element is displayed (fortunately throughout my 3D content I rarely see pure red stuff). The only possible fix I've found is to purposely put the projectors in the lowest brightness modes but it does not provide enough light for a pleasant picture. I believe this comes from the projector lamp output having spikes and dips at certain wavelengths in the highest lamp modes which make the right eye look wrong.

Overall I find the Omega system a good compromise mainly for the zero crosstalk ability. The picture also looks amazingly good without the silverscreen, however in actual usage, I've decided to keep the silverscreen to compensate for the lower lumen output, and also because it's directivity helps fight against ambient lighting (my walls are white).

The only thing that really annoys me is knowing that future improvement will have to come from flattening the spectral light output. The problem is : manufacturers don't communicate on that, and review websites don't publish spectal output charts, because you need a spectrometer to measure it and most sites only use calibration tools which are limited to the traditional colour system.
In other words : if some new projector works better with Omega, we won't know about it.
post #1740 of 2268
Thank's for that info BlackShark. I'm considering the wavelength multiplexing system, but I'm not quite there yet. I'm really taking an interest in your posts and those of motorman.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread