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The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 59

post #1741 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBTO View Post


Didn't mean to imply anything else rdjam.

Let me put it this way. I wouldn't use Lincoln OR Cadillac parts to build a great 6 wheel drive amphibious vehicle specifically designed for the task!

Ahh, but I made that point specifically.

I could have built my two projector system with crappy $300 projectors, and at the end of the day the picture would still suck in 3D.

I used two extremely good JVC projectors, in this case RS40 units. This was so that the picture quality would be superb.

Part of the equation for an "ultimate" 3D system is certainly using 2 projectors for a consistent, bright and flicker-free image.

But the other part is also that you need class leading PQ within the image that each eye sees. So you need some Audi quality gear (or Cadillac, etc).

Don't forget, you still have to watch it in 2D also, and if you wouldn't be happy with the PQ in 2D, why would you want to hobble your new 3D system with that same low quality?

So in some ways it's "go large or go home"..

However, luckily, there are some really excellent projectors in that low to mid end space that allow you to go large without crossing the price boundary of some of the high end single projector 3D solutions, yet still blow them out of the water for 3D presentation quality.
post #1742 of 2268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post


Overall I find the Omega system a good compromise mainly for the zero crosstalk ability. The picture also looks amazingly good without the silverscreen, however in actual usage, I've decided to keep the silverscreen to compensate for the lower lumen output, and also because it's directivity helps fight against ambient lighting (my walls are white).

Yes, I've quietly stuck with polarized, as the colors are perfect no matter what, and there are only slight extinction issues noticeable only in certain types of scenes. And the brightness is far superior. In fact, I'd venture to say that if I turned down the brightness of my projectors that low to match, I prolly wouldnt have any extinction issues noticeable at all.

I've found the color issues more noticeable. But then again, I haven't gotten the "LCD optimized" versions of the Omega lenses yet to make a fair comparison, nor have I had time to run some color compensation tricks with Spectracal yet.
post #1743 of 2268
What makes dual projector passive 3D better than active shutter glasses 3D? Assuming that both techs are ghost and flicker free with satisfactory image brightness, what's the difference?
post #1744 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

I've found the color issues more noticeable. But then again, I haven't gotten the "LCD optimized" versions of the Omega lenses yet to make a fair comparison, nor have I had time to run some color compensation tricks with Spectracal yet.

With the DLP filters, I found the colour difference very noticeable, and I had to tweak a significant amount of settings to reach satisfactory results. However I wasn't able to match the colours perfectly, that would have requires a more complex colour correction software. I noticed that uneven light intensity caused eye rivalry much more quickly than incorrect colour.
With the LCD filters, colours were barely improved, but the light intensity is almost matching so the picture creates very little eye rivalry, and when it does it's only on the few colour primaries which have serious issues like RED, Cyan and Magenta. Basically the LCD filters perform 95% of the correction work I had previously struggled to achieve. All I had to do next were minor tweaks with the Hue of individual primaries to make the colour closer. After correction, Cyan and Magenta no longer cause eye rivalry, only pure Red is left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post

What makes dual projector passive 3D better than active shutter glasses 3D? Assuming that both techs are ghost and flicker free with satisfactory image brightness, what's the difference?

First your assumptions are not perfectly met at the moment :
-Only DLP provides a crosstalk free picture with shutter glasses, LCD and LCoS still have work to do.

-Shutter glasses 3D isn't flicker free and NEVER WILL. What it is is pain free.
At 120Hz/144Hz the vast majority of people don't directly see the flicker (it isn't instant strobing pain like at 60Hz), but a large portion of people still feel it and it causes fatigue over time. If I put a DLP shutter system and a passive system side by side, I can instantly feel the difference.
According to cinema experts, watching a 2 hours long movie is fine for most people with current shutter technology, but beyond that the amount of people complaining of problems increases significantly.

-Shutter glasses also rarely offer satisfactory image brightness without having to boost their lamp mode to their maximum output. This causes a significant picture quality difference between the 2D mode and the 3D mode.

Then the other advantages :
-Time sequential based 3D creates motion artefacts (shutter glasses or single-projector RealD/Dolby3D/Omega), in fast motion scenes, because the eyes don't see the pictures at the same time the brain does not estimate the depth properly due to it's own motion compensation (the brain prioritizes what it expects to see significantly more than what the eyes actually see).
3D Motion picture directors know about this and try to avoid too fast motion scenes but they cannot completely avoid it.

-1080p60 : there is still no 1080p 3D consumer projector capable of full resolution at 60Hz input in 3D mode. This may not be important for 3D BluRay (because they're all 24Hz) but it is important if you play games on a powerful PC. Once we'll get proper 1080p60 support, this advantage will be no more, but it appears projector manufacturers aren't interested to make it happen.

-Projector choice : you can choose any projector for dual-projectors 3D, the choice is much more limited with 3D projectors.
This advantage will progressively vanish over time as 3D becomes a standard feature, just like with TVs.
post #1745 of 2268
Here is a test pattern i made. have not had a chance to try it on my projector stack so sorry if its alignment is not perfect. it should be but i will refine it if there are any issues.
i mainly made it to make a color test for the two projectors for adjustment like the one BlackShark had shown.
i also have this as an mp4 video with some animation in it but i cannot upload it here
LL
post #1746 of 2268
here is the test pattern as an mp4. works pretty good for testing color

http://www.flickr.com/photos/motorma...in/photostream
post #1747 of 2268
I just received an e-mail from VNS regarding their booth at the upcoming Infocomm convention in Las Vegas. It will be from June 13th to the 15th and their booth (#N1655 in the North Hall) will be hosting the following:

"1. Passive 3D Projection Display: we will show two projector passive 3D
display system using low cost polarized glasses. You can see the most
healthy, comfortable and the best performance 3D display in GeoBox.
2. Multiple Projector Edge Blending: GeoBox is a flexible and easy use
device for multi-projector Edge blending. It is designed with patented eWarp
technology and meets the most demanding industrial standard with curved
screen support. No PC system is required."

They're supposed to introduce their new, lower cost 3D demultiplexer G-301 box there.


For those of you in that area, it might be worth checking out. Let us know what you see if you go.

Contact: Steve Wang steve.wang@vnstw.com

 

Geo-Box-G-301.pdf 128.5146484375k . file
post #1748 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBTO View Post

I just received an e-mail from VNS regarding their booth at the upcoming Infocomm convention in Las Vegas. It will be from June 13th to the 15th and their booth (#N1655 in the North Hall) will be hosting the following:

"1. Passive 3D Projection Display: we will show two projector passive 3D
display system using low cost polarized glasses. You can see the most
healthy, comfortable and the best performance 3D display in GeoBox.
2. Multiple Projector Edge Blending: GeoBox is a flexible and easy use
device for multi-projector Edge blending. It is designed with patented eWarp
technology and meets the most demanding industrial standard with curved
screen support. No PC system is required."

They're supposed to introduce their new, lower cost 3D demultiplexer G-301 box there.


For those of you in that area, it might be worth checking out. Let us know what you see if you go.

Contact: Steve Wang steve.wang@vnstw.com

i would love to see the booth and demo he will have there. i am getting a 501 box soon but the 301 sounds like it will do what most of us need.
he may even be showing a set of omega filters. we will see.
post #1749 of 2268
Hi. Here we found 2pcs adjustable mounting clip clamp, to support the filters in front of projector lens. I found very useful.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-adjustable-mounting-clip-clamp-PCB-soldering-/261012715108?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc591f664
post #1750 of 2268
very cool. these look like great filter mounts
post #1751 of 2268
Yes, I found very useful. I've tested them. Can rotate, up and down,front and back as you want. Are quite well done. I saw many wonder how is better to place filters in front of the projector. I asked myself this, and made me look for an optimal solution to be not too expensive. Is good to know by others because this filter mounts gives you complete freedom of movement in any direction.
post #1752 of 2268
Great find. I'll be getting these if I ever get around to trying a kit. Thanks.
post #1753 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBTO View Post

I just received an e-mail from VNS regarding their booth at the upcoming Infocomm convention in Las Vegas. It will be from June 13th to the 15th and their booth (#N1655 in the North Hall) will be hosting the following:


"1. Passive 3D Projection Display: we will show two projector passive 3D

display system using low cost polarized glasses. You can see the most

healthy, comfortable and the best performance 3D display in GeoBox.

2. Multiple Projector Edge Blending: GeoBox is a flexible and easy use

device for multi-projector Edge blending. It is designed with patented eWarp

technology and meets the most demanding industrial standard with curved

screen support. No PC system is required."


They're supposed to introduce their new, lower cost 3D demultiplexer G-301 box there.



For those of you in that area, it might be worth checking out. Let us know what you see if you go.


Contact: Steve Wang steve.wang@vnstw.com

Geo-Box-G-301.pdf 129k .pdf file

Any idea on the cost of the unit? It lookws like a nice solution.
post #1754 of 2268
I just got a G-501 box and tested it for a short while, it works great. i need to setup a more full test next week. ill report back. btw he also will /has run a demo in vegas with the omega filter set .
thereone thing the 501 can do the 301 cannot, that is color correction proccesing. i will need some time to run the tests but i want to post pics and maybe a vid of it.
post #1755 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

I just got a G-501 box and tested it for a short while, it works great. i need to setup a more full test next week. ill report back. btw he also will /has run a demo in vegas with the omega filter set .
thereone thing the 501 can do the 301 cannot, that is color correction proccesing. i will need some time to run the tests but i want to post pics and maybe a vid of it.
The most important thing for me is : Can it do 1080p60 full resolution input/output from a PC as a source. I noticed the G-501 has a Display Port input.
VSN advertises these boxes a lot with hdmi 1.4a and 24Hz for Blu Ray, but never mentions the Display Port input capabilities.
Can you test this input ?
post #1756 of 2268
it dose have the display port input but i dont have something with that output ? . Mr Wang said one thing he could add is individual channel color correction, i did not realize it did not have this but it seems easy for him to change. i am not real familliar with display port as a interface? any knowlwdge on this.
next week i will test what i can on this unit. so far its pretty cool
post #1757 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

Any idea on the cost of the unit? It lookws like a nice solution.

Introduction of the G-301 wasn't made at the Las Vegas show and was postponed until August with the price pending until that time. Since the G-301 doesn't include video processing, it uses an 8 bit processor whereas the G-501 uses a 16 bit one to handle the bit manipulations required (to reduce artifacts and truncation errors in video processing steps).
post #1758 of 2268
Having display port output from the geobox isn't very important since there are so few Display port enabled displays or projector.
What is important is getting 1080pfull resolution at 60 Hz out of a PC in a standardized way which is supported by the graphics card driver, there are only 2 ways to do that : Hdmi @ 3GHz (Hdmi 1.4a with full bandwidth) or Display port.
Once out of the PC the box can split the left and right eye views into separate L&R Hdmi.

So my question is : does the geobox Displayport input support 1080p 3D pictures at 60 Hz from PC graphics cards 3D outputs (AMD HD3D or Nvidia 3D vision or 3DTV Play)
post #1759 of 2268
I own the Benq W7000 and want to get more brightness for 3d. The Omega system sounds pretty good but I am concerned about color correction issues. Has anyone used a Benq DLP projector for this system? I really like the idea of not having to use a silver screen and can live with some slight color issues. Can the colors be tweaked enough to be happy with the result or do I have to consider some knid of color correction software?
post #1760 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

I own the Benq W7000 and want to get more brightness for 3d. The Omega system sounds pretty good but I am concerned about color correction issues. Has anyone used a Benq DLP projector for this system? I really like the idea of not having to use a silver screen and can live with some slight color issues. Can the colors be tweaked enough to be happy with the result or do I have to consider some knid of color correction software?

Hi. well i can say thatthe W7000 BenQ is probably one of the best spec'd projectors for the Omega filter setup. I have not tested these but have seen the spectral output and they should be as good as any home theater projector for the kit. there will be some color differance between the eyes but it should be not enough to worry about, you can make adjustments to each projector to correct a lot of it. make sure to get the omega kit made for DLP systems if you decide to go that way. ive been using two Optoma HD20's that are rated similar in lumens and they look great on 120", i demo the system on a much larger 170"+ screen and they still look very good. the tested actual output of these i think is 1200 lumens ( they calim 1700 ) so they should be plenty bright.
mr wang from VNS who makes the G-501 demultiplexor used two BenQ DLP projectors to show his demux box in Vegas recently and showed my filters as well. he noted a slight color differance but felt is was not a problem. he also said he could modify his 501 demultiplexor to have left and right color correction if its needed. i have one of his units now and im testing it to use the system without a PC, works great so far.
anyone else have thoguths on the question.? i would buy two of these W7000's if i could. I actually like the W6000 better for the higher lumens and they are cheaper but i donot know if there are advantages to the newer model. anyone ?
post #1761 of 2268
Thanks Motorman, I am placing an order today. I am very happy with the W7000 and two should be better than one.smile.gif One question, do you have to remove the filters for 2d viewing? I don't have room for three projectors even though I still have my BEnq W5000 that still looks great. But the lumens are lower so I can't use it with the W7000 for 3d.
post #1762 of 2268
if you make one of the filter have a flip mount or at least one where you can remove a filter easy ( i do this to the left projector ) them you can just run the one projector with no filter for great 2D. it also depends somewhat on how you drive the image to the projector. with a PC and a dual head video card what ever projector is your primary desktop is the easiest to use as the 2D projector. with a demux box its all in how you decide to set it up
post #1763 of 2268
So I have had some time to test the VNS G-501 demux, not as much time as i would like so far. but it is very cool. the ability to adjust and align the images greatly simplifies aligning two projectors and the adjustments are fine enough toget a fantastic image good enough for 2D with both on. one interesting thing ive tried i that i can play side by side video from my pc using Real player ad in full screen mode ad feeding the box with a DVI cable i finds and splits the image perfectly to the projectors. and the othr output from the Nvida card going to my monitor makes it easy for me to work the PC. ijust have the desktop set up in clone mode to that the sae image is going to both outputs. i will test other inputs soon. im also running the pc output to the VNS box at 1920x1080 set to 60 hz. now if that is what is being displayed ?? i could not tell so far. it just looked great.
post #1764 of 2268
For those of you with a Harkness screen what type Harkness screen do you have and who was your contact to buy it? I am thinking about buying one. How did you mount the screen/ how were the edges done?
post #1765 of 2268
I bought my Harkness screen from Harkness-screens UK, I contacted them through the email address provided on their contact page. I was in contact with 3 different people : 2 people when I was asking them for information and a different person when billing.

My screen is a Harkness Spectral 240, size 235x135cm, screen only, seamless, no perforation (not accoustically transparent), mounted on my own DIY frame with 3M Dual-lock tape (pre-installed on the screen by Harkness, delivered with the matching roll of tape to attach to my frame), the tape is located on the rear-side of the screen.
This disturbed the Harkness sales reps a little since they do their own frames it the other way around : they attach their screens from behind the frame with the tape on the front side of the screen, so that the frame covers the attachment points, providing a clean finish , because there is a noticeable bump in the screen surface where the tape is located which should be hidden by the frame.
But my local hardware store does not provide the frame materials in sufficient length for my frame, so each side of my frame is made of multiple elements. I knew that my DIY skills were not good enough to make a clean frame, so I preferred to have the screen on the front side of the frame : the attachment areas cause a visible bump on the edges but it's less ugly than the actual aluminium frame with holes in them. I planned to add a cover on top of the edges of the frame at a later time to make it look better, but I have never actually done it.
post #1766 of 2268
Hi. I wonder if is available a good 2D-3D converter?
post #1767 of 2268
Has anyone compared the brightness of a dual system with the omage lens and a 1800-20000 lumen dlp projector with active glasses?
post #1768 of 2268
This might interest some of you. JVC Clone with an Active 3d to Passive converter with a gain in brightness.

http://www.dreamvision.net/proj/best3Dpassive.html

369
post #1769 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

This might interest some of you. JVC Clone with an Active 3d to Passive converter with a gain in brightness.
http://www.dreamvision.net/proj/best3Dpassive.html
369

On the JVC this will not fix the Ghosting. The Panels on the JVC are to slow. So no matter what device is in front the JVC is still an issue.

I have the JVC x3/rs40. While the 3d is great the main issues are Ghosting and flicker. That is all on blu-ray 3d. Anything that is Side by Side Video, or gaming has huge amount of ghosting.
post #1770 of 2268
Do you have any idea of the price range for this adapter and a 2.35 silver screen. Their web site is excellent but no mention of pricing that I could see.

With all the interest in 3D at this point, I am totally sold on passive 3D TV. Everyone that I have demo'd 3D material both Active & Passive systems selected passive. The Active powered glasses were to much for them either due to weight, eye strain, battery failure etc. I've tested all 3D glasses. Most could not watch a full feature in 3D even though the picture was 1080P but:) ok for 2D viewing without glasses.. Passive glasses were and still are what they are comfortable with everytime viewing 47"55"65" 3D passive 3DTV. That is why they all ask when will I get my 120" screen & 3D projector viewing passive material. This site is excellent and it looks like it will be affordable in time. I Can't Wait!
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