The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 65

I'm pretty sure that rdjam's reference to the "ultimate" projection in this thread is nothing other than the fact that passive projection is in most cases can be better than an active solution and what it takes to achieve it in the home.

rdjam states on the first page of the thread........

"THIS THREAD, is for anyone interested in the subject, to add their thoughts, experiences, and also source materials they have found.

At this point in time - the system I am visualizing will result in a 3D home theater with the following attributes:
(1) A discrete two projector "passive" 3D system, which allows the use of cheap, "passive" theater-style glasses, rather than expensive "active" shutter glasses.
(2) Light output of 96 hz or 120 hz per eye (depending on content) rather than 24 hz, 48 hz or 60 hz of most existing solutions
(3) Frame Interpolated output for each eye, resulting in a higher TRUE frame rate for each eye than source 3D material commonly available. One of the bigest bugbears I have with 3D films now is that a low frame rate is more disruptive to immersion in 3D than in 2D.
(4) A system that will handle all available 3D formats, not be restricted to a particular set of standards of the particular projector used.
(5) A system that will allow you to use regular non-3D projectors, even of disimilar resolutions, to make the 3D theater.
(6) System that allows use of picture enhancement technology that is not currently available for 3D use. For instance, I plan on intergrating two DarbeeVision boxes to enhance the 3D impact.

As they said in Inception "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger".


I repeat

THIS THREAD, is for anyone interested in the subject, to add their thoughts, experiences, and also source materials they have found

I agree, I have a budget limit and have to play within it.
But given how the projector market evolves, we all know that next years projectors will be better than this years models and at a lower price. So our beautiful "ultimate" systems would be obsolete the next year. There would be absolutely no point in trying to achieve such a system in your home, you'd be throwing so much money away.
If we were to dream and design the absolute ultimate projector, we'd be better dreaming about technology that doesn't exists yet. There seems to be a lot of enthusiasm in the very high end market for the upcoming RED laser projector, But laser light sources have narrow spectrums so you can't put an Omega filter in front of it : so our dream ultimate system would be a specially tuned version of this RED projector that already emit it's primary laser light at the exact frequencies that Omega uses, so that there's no need for filters. But nobody would ever be able to buy and test it since it doesn't exist.

Regarding the ultimate suggestion I talked about in my previous post, I don't know if it would cost 20.000$. I have no Idea of prices for these systems since I know they are out of my price range so I don't even look at them. What I meant is that I was expecting these to be above the 20.000$ mark and thus belong to an other forum.
You probably noticed that most of us here don't stray very far away from the 3000$ mark, because we all know that at some point we want to buy these systems we talk so much about, so we try to be reasonable with out expectations. Compromises have to be made, and a few months ago, before the Omega system was ever presented to us (when polarisation was the only good way of doing it) : the first compromise was to put a strong emphasis on the 3D performance, regardless of the 2D performance.
The logic is simple : we buy two sub-2000$ projectors, if you really want to use it for 2D, you figure out a way to use two screens (typically a fixed silverscreen and a movable or ceiling rollable 2D screen to be able to do both 2D and 3D) and get a final price tag in the 3000-5000$ range. It's the best passive system you can get for 3D, but when you switch to 2D you're back with sub-2000$ projectors, it's decent but clearly not the best 2D for the money. If you go active, you can get an excellent 4000$ projector that will completely outperform our cheap projectors in terms of 2D picture quality and get decent 3D.
For a fixed cost, you can't have both ultimate 2D and ultimate 3D at the same time.
Edited by BlackShark - 12/2/12 at 2:26am

I have to say i agree with all of what the goal of this thread is. the only ultimate passive 3d ive seen is with very expensive equipment. there are flaws in all of the systems tried to some level including the omega 3d system i created. my goal as an inventor and engineer was to try to improve on an existing tech and i did.
i was trying at one point to contact RED about the laser system but no response or intrest. one path to an ultimate 3d system is lasers. i have found a couple of people making laser light engines that with a little change would work amazing with a super anaglyph system like mine. imagine ten lasers bands that line up with my filters bands, there would be no projector filter and the efficiency would be nearly the same in 2d as 3d. color balance could be done easily with a processor built into the projector controlling the output levels of the many lasers. i have no budget to develop it but i can see it. red went with an lcos setup similar to jvc's and the laser was built by someone else as a remote fiber setup that is scalable in power. thir projector is a lot like the LG passive 3d projector with two image engines. the market for these kind of projectors is not that big and would take the right company or investor to want to build such a unit.
i found a company making a nine laser line light source that will owrk but they have chosen odd wavelegnths that wont work with any filtering sysem well and they are not interested in chnaging the laser lines to match another system. even the infitec system would work with the right lasers but their bands are spaced in such a way that color balance between eyes is not workable at all without major color processing, i know my filter set had the best native color balance, its not perfect but its better than what else is out there. polarizing systems have a lot of merit but suffer ghosting and need a silver screen.
i know its possible to build a single projector with true passive 3d, no ghosing, no silver screen, and perfect 2d performance And be ~3k its really a matter of the right company wanting to put the parts together.

Anyone who reads this thread knows it began with rdjams desire for a dual passive 3D projection home theater. While at Cedia he came across the Optoma booth and discovered the 3D-XL, which is the home user solution he had been waiting for to put his plan into action. He had an idea of how to get the end result, but anyone that has read the thread, knows it was not an instant result. It took several attempts before he found polarizing filters that gave the desired result.

Thing is, this thread was named The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread from early on. It was made so that rdjam could document his trials and tribulations, so that the rest of us could learn from his progress, So that Users could give input/feedback of their experiences or knowledge as well as ask questions to learn more about what it would take to implement their own solution. It was never about the "Best" that money can buy.

Passive projection needs these threads to grow and blossom into a more widely supported option of our 3D viewing choices.

I thank rdjam/Blackshark/motorman45 and others that have posted with useful informaton, furthering my knowledge of passive projection. I applaud them, for taking time to start their own threads and answer user questions

Thanks to them and threads like theirs, more users are building their own systems.

We can only hope that this will help 3D Passive projection to be less ignored by hardware and software developers/manufacturers and become more mainstream,

Regarding the geobox g501 is there a US dealer? I have searched but nothing shows up for the US. Thank you!

Hey Allan

Contact motorman45 he sells them (2 Posts above yours).





Edited by wildchild22 - 12/10/12 at 9:43am

ttview, if you want the gold standard just hop on over to the $20k+ section and check out Wolfgang's setup, he has two 4k Barco's with every type of passive filter and can do scope! As for Motorman hijacking the thread, thats not true, people were looking for an affordable way to use the Dolby method long before he showed up with a great product. Now, in my opinion, the closest thing you are going to get to "Ultimate" at a reasonable price is the RED projector. RED is aiming for $10K, that will get you a 4K laser projector that can display two 4K images at once for 3D (and I believe it will do high frame rates for gaming). Still I don't believe it is perfect....

My "Ultimate" setup would be a high lumen LED projector that is matched perfectly to the omega filters; no cross-talk, no color issues, no silver screen. Unfortunately I think if anyone was going to do it it would have been RED, sadly they went polarized since they bought HDI-3D. Otherwise it is a waiting game. Dolby has a system that will allow glasses free 3D, but similar to LG passive there is a loss of resolution, and because of that they are waiting for 4K tv's to be more prevalent. If I had to guess it will be a SBS display, since they say the glass is design to work similar to the 3D images on the cover of blurays.

Just read the the 3D-Evolver supports Dolby now so no need for a dual-screen setup anymore. That could be interesting?
http://www.curtpalme.com/3DEvolver.shtm

Anyone try the 3D Evolver yet? How does it compare to the geobox?

as far as dealers here is one http://www.airflex5d.com/af5d5.html its the G-501 re branded and they sell it for 3995$ alone !!... we are still tying to be a dealer but there is a hold for now on new boxes.

i would like to try one. i will see...

The 3D Evolver is available through a Canadian supplier here for about $1300 Canadian:

http://www.consignia.ca/vip-3d-evolver-worlds-first-1080p-full-hd-dual-projector-passive-3d-processor/

It has 3D demultiplexer capabilities but lacks the screen adjustment capabilities of the G501 box. It would suffice for a simple 3D demux, but lacks the ability to fine tune the projected images.
Edited by RBTO - 12/31/12 at 8:33am

i Love the geobox g-501 for its ability to align the images near perfectly. if i want a simple demux i will just run my htpc with the nvidia dual dvi video card. not as simple i know to play bluerays but its cheap and simple. the market for a demux box is small so its hard to get prices low and still have a lot of features like imge adjustment.

Hello motorman. I have a question about projectors alignment. A few months passed since using Omega system, which is a fantastic 3D system but I have not managed to get perfect alignment. and I'm very sad because I want to get the maximum 3D effect. I have a custom-made projectors support for two projects made by furniture factory. They tried to make it well but remain alignment problems. Can you recommend a 3D Projector Stacker for my 2 projector Panasonic PT-AR100U (Size (inches) (HxWxD) : 5.4 x 18.5 x 15.0)? Begin to believe that only if buy a professional support made ​​by a specialized company can obtain a near perfect alignment. I saw the 3D Projector Stacker of the DA-LITE but it is quite expensive and transport to Romania is almost $ 1000. Any suggestions about a 3D Projector Stacker would be welcome. And I have another question. After wash Omaga glasses remain spots from water. lenses can be cleaned with alcohol? If the answer is yes with what type of alcohol? I ask all this because I'm afraid not affect lens. Soon I'll post here some pictures with my Omega 3D system. Thank you very much.

Hi. im vary happy to hear its working good for you. i dont think any rack or mount will giver perfect alignment. ive built my own and designed fine adjustment into the stack but projector lenses are different enough and the separation between the projectors makes it hard to get exact alignment. the only way to get perfection is a video processor that has image warp/alignment like the geobox 501 ive talked about. they are not cheap but i can watch 2D with both projectors on and its near perfect. paying a lot of money for a professional rack will not fix the problem. in 3D mode it should not make a huge differance as each eye only sees its own image and slight alignment issues near the edges dont make much differance. perfection is all in digital ilighment.
there are some PC based image alignment programs like image warp. but i have not tried them.

Motorman, have you done any tests with LED dlp projectors vs lamp based dlp projectors?

Thanks for reply. I understand. Relating to other questions. After wash Omaga glasses remain spots from water. Lenses can be cleaned with alcohol? If the answer is yes with what type of alcohol? I ask all this because I'm afraid not affect lens.

Sorry, i forgot. use any alcohol on them it will be fine. i use water free alcohol or anhydrous. the lenses are very durrable and the frames are inteded to be washed in a dish washer over and over.

BenQ W1070 could be quite good for Omega 3D.

-Vertical lens shift, small but should be enough for this.
-1080P 2000 lumens and it is measured to be about 1600 when calibrated, this is very good.
-Ful color control, ISF
-under 1000$, here in europe you can get it 700-750€
-3x rgbrgb color wheel, good for RBE.

I'm planning to test this within couple months, friend have this too so we can arrange some test session.

Here is review --> LINK

Hi,
At time of this writing I have a full fledged Real 3D projection system that includes: 1 Dalight Standard White Screen(120.00 Inches X 65.00 Inches), 2 DLP projectors rated at 1800 ANSI Lumen each, 1 DLP 3D Kit from Omega Optics, 1 Geo Box G-501 from Omega Optics and popcorn while you watch movie theater grade 3D blockbusters in full color.

A note on the projectors: At my location, the projectors are ceiling mounted on 2 Peerless PRG Precision Gear Projector Mount PRG-1 ( Tilt & Swivel )

Final comment: In my opinion, this is the best passive Real 3D Home Cinema setup you can wish for and realize on an affortable budget.It is an all passive system without eye strain. It is the best system today. The credit goes to Omega Optical Inc.

for further information on this please contact: Dieter Jaeger at dieterejager@hotmail.com

Dieter Jaeger

Is there someone in the US that currently sells the Geobox 501? I'm new to this discussion and it seems it was available and now it is not? I looked at the Airflex 5D, but the price is a little ridiculous. I also found the 3D-Evolver system online and it is priced more along the line of what I am looking for, but I can't find any reviews or user comments regarding the product.

I have decided to go with a dual projector 3D system rather than a single active system, and I really would appreciate any information on these systems.

great product, $4k for the demux

Airflex5D offers multiple different processors depending on the solutions. For the home for passive 3D, the processors start at $1999 MSRP. This becomes a more cost effective solution for the Home Theater enthousiast who wishes for passive 3D Projection compared to the LG 10K$ Projector.

yes they do offer a really good product and cheaper to build a dual stack than the LG dual imager passive unit but that didnt perform very well . ghosting and poor contrast from what ive read, and at 10k didnt sell well. the VIP 3D evolver is half the price of the least expensive unit from airflex, its been hard to beat two 3D-XL's for an inexpensive dual stack build, when you get to needing digital alignemnt the cost doubles. thats the $4k box they sell. great product but most wont spend that much on a demux

Please can someone explain to me, how the SPAR-L filters from advisol work?

- there's only a half wave retarder plate which rotates the light which is already polarized in a direction (3LCD/LCOS) e.g. 45/145 deg?
- or there are two filters laminated: 1/2w + linear, just to be sure aka don't rely only on the internal polarizers in the projector
- how does thing work then when green color is polarized orthogonally to red and blue? do I need to swap the green channels between L and R or the 1/2w retarder does specifically rotate the green color only? (I've read somewhere about 1/4w which are designed to a specific wavelength)

The SPAR filters are designed specifically for 3LCD projectors which have the green primary colour at an orthogonal angle from red and blue. (vertical green, horizontal red and blue). It doesn't work for projectors which have all primaries with the same polarisation.
It is made of a special arrangement of retarders which have a different effect depending on the wavelength which get the primary colours as close as possible to the 45/135° angles and a final linear polariser to clean up the output.
I don't know what materials and how many different materials are used to make that special retarder though. I remember reading that Omega made such filters in the past too, maybe Motorman can provide more information.

Omega has made polarizing filters for years. mostly linear. the was Spar filtes work is a wavelegnth selective or biased quarter wave plate (QWP). im not sure about the methof Spar uses to design theirs but a quarter wave plate ( plastic in these cases ) can be selected to be optimal for a range of colors, to make a linear image beam into circualr, wither left or right spiraling, you just place the QWP in the beam path. to make it left or right you just change the "slow" axis of the QWP 90 deg to create a circular rotaion in the other direction.
sheets of QWP are cheap and and you can cut it up with scissors and laminate them together with optical cement and glass. they come in various thicknesses that are optomized for a given performance depending on the situation. i have a bunch of the material but it is not the type bised for green or i would try making some. ive made some plain old circualar projection filters for DLP. you simply combine a linear polarizer and a QWP laminated with the slow axis ( marked on the edge of the main sheet ) at a 45 deg angle to the axis of one of the linear polarizers and then make another in 45 deg the other direction or at 90 from the other depending on how you look at it. the linear side of the finished part faces the projector and the QWP faces the silver screen. if you turn them around they dont work, just as circular glasses fail to function in reverse.
hope that helps understand some.

Wow, i'm practically out of breath. I just spend many hours of the last two days reading this entire thread (almost). Thanks to everyone for the contributions. I'm totally over my head for most of this stuff but i was able to somewhat keep up. I'm just starting to do research for the home theatre I plan on building in my garage starting this March and I very interested in having 3D capabilities.

I have a couple questions for rdjam and Motorman.

Rdjam, are you currently setup with Omega filters or did you stick with your original polarized setup? Did you compare the two? Which did you prefer? You were pretty big on having Frame Interpolation...is that needed with Omega?

Motorman, what is a great matching projector for your Omega's to avoid color problems as much as possible and to have a very bright display (or as bright as possible). Ar100u's?

I will have a dedicated room with light control. I will want to watch mostly movies, some tv shows and sports, and play xbox on this setup so i want 2d to be great too.

yeah, I've read it all, whole 65 pages, a couple of days needed
thank you BlackShark and motorman45, but I still don't get it...completely I will sketch it in the evening, how I think the filters or stereobright principle should be used. stay tuned