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The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 71

post #2101 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Well, I don't know for sure, but I believe those systems don't have the huge blanking time, which is most of the problem with active glasses (plus it isn't black right in front of your eyes, which I am sure has to be a eye focus pain), also a big problem with active is the weight of the glasses. I know it wouldn't be optimal, but I think it would be way better than active glasses imo.

the blank or off time in cinema projectors is %30-40 in 3d mode.
post #2102 of 2268
Hi there, I spent hours reading this thread but I could not get a definitive answer to my situation. I already tried for a few minutes volfoni smart crystal pro with real d glasses a while back and it looks good to me but don't know if the omega will work better to me or the volfoni its the best option. I want to create a 3d cinema business on my origin country, maybe 100 people on a area of 27 x 12 yards.

Option 1
OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D (5000 Lumens) $1300
Volfoni smartcrystal pro + $1500
Chinese manufacturer gray 3D screen of 5 x 3.75 yards + $450
100 units of real d glasses from ebay $100
Total = 3350

Option 2
2 x OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D (5000 Lumens) $2600
Chinese manufacturer white screen of 5 x 3.75 yards 250$
100 units of real d glasses from ebay $100
Omega system $?


1. My first Option will work fine with a screen that big? If not what will be a maximum good size?
2. Real D glasses are around 1$ is there a better glasses for that system not too far from that price? Wish ones?
3. What is the Price for the complete system of crystals, hardware mount and geo box and any other necessary accessories?
4. Pros and Cons of each setup?

Any help will be very appreciated
Thank you
post #2103 of 2268
Hi there, I spent hours reading this thread but I could not get a definitive answer to my situation. I already tried for a few minutes volfoni smart crystal pro with real d glasses a while back and it looks good to me but don't know if the omega will work better to me or the volfoni its the best option. I want to create a 3d cinema business on my origin country, maybe 100 people on a area of 27 x 12 yards.

Option 1
OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D (5000 Lumens) $1300
Volfoni smartcrystal pro + $1500
Chinese manufacturer gray 3D screen of 5 x 3.75 yards + $450
100 units of real d glasses from ebay $100
Total = 3350

Option 2
2 x OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D (5000 Lumens) $2600
Chinese manufacturer white screen of 5 x 3.75 yards 250$
100 units of real d glasses from ebay $100
Omega system $?


1. My first Option will work fine with a screen that big? If not what will be a maximum good size?
2. Real D glasses are around 1$ is there a better glasses for that system not too far from that price? Wish ones?
3. What is the Price for the complete system of crystals, hardware mount and geo box and any other necessary accessories?
4. Pros and Cons of each setup?

Any help will be very appreciated
Thank you
post #2104 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ale20cu View Post

Hi there, I spent hours reading this thread but I could not get a definitive answer to my situation. I already tried for a few minutes volfoni smart crystal pro with real d glasses a while back and it looks good to me but don't know if the omega will work better to me or the volfoni its the best option. I want to create a 3d cinema business on my origin country, maybe 100 people on a area of 27 x 12 yards.

Option 1
OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D (5000 Lumens) $1300
Volfoni smartcrystal pro + $1500
Chinese manufacturer gray 3D screen of 5 x 3.75 yards + $450
100 units of real d glasses from ebay $100
Total = 3350

Option 2
2 x OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D (5000 Lumens) $2600
Chinese manufacturer white screen of 5 x 3.75 yards 250$
100 units of real d glasses from ebay $100
Omega system $?


1. My first Option will work fine with a screen that big? If not what will be a maximum good size?
2. Real D glasses are around 1$ is there a better glasses for that system not too far from that price? Wish ones?
3. What is the Price for the complete system of crystals, hardware mount and geo box and any other necessary accessories?
4. Pros and Cons of each setup?

Any help will be very appreciated
Thank you

There are some real problems with both of these setups you have proposed, I will try to point you in the right direction.
1. The OPTOMA DLP TX779P-3D is a business class projector, I highly doubt that it puts out 5000 lumens for colors, that is probably the white output rating. In the real world the RGB light output is probably far less. That projector is has a resolution of 1024 x 768 which is fine for movies and tv shows with a 4:3 aspect ratio, but that is very rare these days, most of what you will be watching will be 16:9, 1.85:1, or 2.35:1 so a projector with a resolution of 1280x720 or 1920x1080 is much better (and will waste less light).
2. Real D glasses will work with your first setup, but not with the second one. The Omega uses its own glasses, I am not sure what the glasses will cost in bulk like that, maybe ~$15 per pair (check with motorman), so this could be a significant cost.
3. This is too complicated to figure out just yet.
4. I personally love the Omega setup, but with 100 people you definitely want to use a polarizing setup (primarily because of the glasses cost).

If you are serious about making a screen for 100 people then you will need a professional class projector. My recommendation is to look around and try to find 2 barco, digital projections, or christie projectors with a lumen rating higher than 5000 (their lumen ratings are more reliable than the optoma business projectors). If price is an issue, you may be able to get a lower resolution model (720p) for a lot less than the 1080p ones. Someone else might want to chime in here, but I think if you get an LCD projector you can often use a quarter-wave plate to create the proper polarization with a lot less light loss than a DLP model. You will also need a geo box or something like that to split the stereo signal to two projectors. I'm sorry I can't give more specific advice on the projectors, but perhaps someone else here has more experience with larger venue projectors can point you in the right direction for a projector. I am not sure you will be able to find a single projector solution with the Volfoni that will be bright enough (remember the projector still need to accept a 3D signal to use the Volfoni, so that limits your options).
post #2105 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ale20cu View Post

I want to create a 3d cinema business on my origin country
With this type of budget, it seems your origin country is somewhere where copyright doesn't apply because the budget and the hardware doesn't appear to match the "business" part of your goal.
Before anything : check your content source and see the type of files you'll be using, every BluRay I own is for home use only and explicitly forbids using it for commercial purposes. So first, you should check with your local movie suppliers to see in what format the movies will be. See if they have any type of offer for small cinemas. I have absolutely no idea about which formats are currently being used by the industry but I easily guess it's something highly encrypted which requires specialized hardware and which might not be compatible with little consumer projectors.
post #2106 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ale20cu View Post

1. My first Option will work fine with a screen that big? If not what will be a maximum good size?
2. Real D glasses are around 1$ is there a better glasses for that system not too far from that price? Wish ones?
3. What is the Price for the complete system of crystals, hardware mount and geo box and any other necessary accessories?
4. Pros and Cons of each setup?

i agree that you would really want at least a 1280x720 projector, one customer of the omega 3d kit took 2 Brco Sim6's he got real cheap used and made a very impressive rig. i have used business projectors and they work just fine with my filters actual lumens besides. you do also probably need a 16:9 native aspect ratio unit as this is the format you will be showing and you would be losing a lot of your imager with a 4:3 aspect unit.

as far as glasses go, RealD glasses are not meant to be re-used, they usually throw them away as they cannot be sanitized easily for re use. that is why they are $1 each. for a home user this is usually not an issue but with many using the glasses its a concern. the omega glasses are $16 in bulk at the moment so it is an expense but they are intended to be washed in a commertial dish washer and re-used for years. we have tested this. you wont get that much use form the $1 polarizing glasses.

i can sell you a 201 geobox for $699 and i can arrange a 100 seat package with projector filters and glasses. you at least do save some $$ in not needing a silver screen with the omega filters. pm me if you want info

i dont know about your content or encription issues depending on what your video source is but that is indpendant of the 3d rig itself mostly. the geobox and the VIP theater Evolver will both demultiplex very well any 3d signal. ive heard and will soon verify that the VIP Evolver is a better product than the Geobox and its priced very well.
post #2107 of 2268
Hello Motorman45. I have a question about test pattern used for aligning the projectors. Projectors Panasonic PT-AR100U have such tests patterns but I ask: is somehow better to use a test pattern that come from 3D blu ray? Thank you.
post #2108 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorini View Post

Hello Motorman45. I have a question about test pattern used for aligning the projectors. Projectors Panasonic PT-AR100U have such tests patterns but I ask: is somehow better to use a test pattern that come from 3D blu ray? Thank you.

it may work well to use the pattern in the projectors but using the same video signal pattern from a blueray might be better. i know the 501 geobox test pattern works perfectly especially with the geometric /warp tool in the geobox.
post #2109 of 2268
I've noticed that are differences when using the projector test pattern and a test pattern that comes from 3d blu ray. I noticed these:
situation 1: align images using projector test pattern but when start movie images are not very well aligned (on the right side and bottom side can see the differences).
situation 2: align images using test pattern ( JPEG format) found with google. (now see the differences on the top and bottom side).
Comparing the two situations 3D effect was better in situation 1.
I wonder if the tests patterns found with google was good? Matter that the test to be a movie not a JPEG format? Where can I find a video test pattern?
Thank you very much for your support.
To the future considering to purchase a Geobox.
post #2110 of 2268
Hi motorman,

It s been a few months since ive read this thread. The last time i visited this thread you (or someone else, don t remember) that the colors where a big issue when using eg. two JVC projectors. Does that still aplies or has the Omega project evolved and fixed these problems?

Is this Omega solution something the same like the Runco D73d double stack (50K!!!) setup? And do you need a silverscreen? And what are the pros/cons of the omega system and the pros/cons of a dolby system?
post #2111 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sorini View Post

I've noticed that are differences when using the projector test pattern and a test pattern that comes from 3d blu ray. I noticed these:
situation 1: align images using projector test pattern but when start movie images are not very well aligned (on the right side and bottom side can see the differences).
situation 2: align images using test pattern ( JPEG format) found with google. (now see the differences on the top and bottom side).
Comparing the two situations 3D effect was better in situation 1.
I wonder if the tests patterns found with google was good? Matter that the test to be a movie not a JPEG format? Where can I find a video test pattern?
Thank you very much for your support.
To the future considering to purchase a Geobox.

Any image which allows registration across the entire screen will do. Most 3D features assume the registration this provides, and have placed their infinity points accordingly, but you can always touch up horizontal alignment if needed.

A jpeg slide will work fine, assuming you have a way to feed it to your system. The attached jpeg is one possible option for you.

In my system, I have projectors which each have good alignment patterns and I use those, but I also have a Panasonic BD player which will allow jpegs to be sent to the projectors. The demultiplexer I'm using also will provide a pattern.

Horizontal alignment doesn't have to be perfect, while vertical alignment is more important to have correct (assuming you're not going to superimpose 2D images for enhanced brightness).
post #2112 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Hi motorman,

It s been a few months since ive read this thread. The last time i visited this thread you (or someone else, don t remember) that the colors where a big issue when using eg. two JVC projectors. Does that still aplies or has the Omega project evolved and fixed these problems?

Is this Omega solution something the same like the Runco D73d double stack (50K!!!) setup? And do you need a silverscreen? And what are the pros/cons of the omega system and the pros/cons of a dolby system?

nothing has changed or can change with the omega filters to change how they work with the jvc units. i have some using these projectors that just love the filters and a couple of users who didnt like the color differance, but still are using it anyway over polarizers.

the Runco stacked sysem has my filters in it ! in fact they have an older generation of the filters than we have been offering in the kits.

you do not seen a silver screen with omega 3D. the pros are there is no ghosting , no silver screen is needed, its more efficient than most other 3d systems, no need for digital color processing with dlp projectors and some lcd's, the glasses can be washed repeatedly in a dish washer and used for years and the kits are realtively cheap. cons... not as good with LCoS projectors..

dolby dose not offer the projector filter to the public so its not really a comparison one can make, using the eye filters dose not work and it was not intended to work this way, neither dose our system work well without the projection filter. Dolby has terrible color balance unless you use their color correction server ($$$$), and they have ghosting and less % eff than the omega system.
post #2113 of 2268
Sounds good.

But why does Runco told me that I need a silverscreen when using the D73d dual stack projector?

What I m looking for is good 3D (I hate the headaches that my JVC X35 gives me and the terrible flicker and ghosting). Only thing I do not want to lose is picture quality in 2D. WIth this I mean that I want a decent native contrast (so good black level). Also, fan sound is important for me. For example, the Benq W1070 is way too loud for me, let alone 2x a W1070!

Can you recommend me a projector looking at my wishes?
post #2114 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Sounds good.

But why does Runco told me that I need a silverscreen when using the D73d dual stack projector?

What I m looking for is good 3D (I hate the headaches that my JVC X35 gives me and the terrible flicker and ghosting). Only thing I do not want to lose is picture quality in 2D. WIth this I mean that I want a decent native contrast (so good black level). Also, fan sound is important for me. For example, the Benq W1070 is way too loud for me, let alone 2x a W1070!

Can you recommend me a projector looking at my wishes?

i do not know why runco says to use a silver screen. unless they are no longer offering the panavision/omega 3d chromatic system and instead are using polarizing. we made a deal with runco back when we partnered with panavision to market our 3d system, that all ended and runco may not be able to get optics anymore, they have not contacted us.
anyway you can build a system as good as their 50k system for a lot less.

one of the best projectors ive seen used with the omega system is the Benq W7000. i dont know that there are any two projectors that will be really quiet but that is a great one. the Optoma HD25, the benq SH910 , viewsonic Pro 8200, and 8300 are all good performers with the omega system. look at the db levels and the cotrast specs and see waht you think. also look at the "official omega 3d " thread and you can see what some others have used for projectors and what they thought about htem with our filters,
post #2115 of 2268
On which property of the projector can you say "this works well with Omega filters"? Is it the lamp, that for example xenon lamps has differnt spectrum, and then with omega filters it produces better color (or not so different L/R)?
For example the 3xLCD projectors I am using - Panasonic PT-EZ570 have UHM lamps, but a DLP version - PT-DZ570 has UHP lamp. What is the difference and which fits better?
Personally I don't like 1xDLP projectors because I can see the rainbowing of the color wheel...
post #2116 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorg43x View Post

On which property of the projector can you say "this works well with Omega filters"? Is it the lamp, that for example xenon lamps has differnt spectrum, and then with omega filters it produces better color (or not so different L/R)?
For example the 3xLCD projectors I am using - Panasonic PT-EZ570 have UHM lamps, but a DLP version - PT-DZ570 has UHP lamp. What is the difference and which fits better?
Personally I don't like 1xDLP projectors because I can see the rainbowing of the color wheel...

UHM and UHP are both the same kind of source, they are metal halide murcury lamps. if you read back further in this thread it should show that what property of a projector that works well with chromatic filtering is a projector with a full spectral output, or in other words one that lacks the deep cyan and yellow notches. i like to see what all the end users have to say, some have LCD projectors and my filters and say its great , others have the same setup and dont. but overall 99% of the people who have used the omega 3d filters find it to be the best 3d they have seen.

xenon of course is one of the best lamps mainly becuase it has better red and an even or full spectral output. UHP and UHM lamps have huge peaks at the murcury lines like 546nm and weak red, the makers compensate some with filters and some do a better job then others
post #2117 of 2268
Seems likely to be the lamp. The Benq W7000 has a very fast wheel that will probably not be a problem for rainbows. Also running 3D seems to make a big reduction in the rainbow effect. I really think keeping the 3D system seperate from your 2D projector might be a good idea. A pair of W7000's would be pretty awesome.
post #2118 of 2268
thxz for your replies motorman. The Runco D-73d system is using a dual 750D projector setup so I don't think that a Benq W7000 dual setup (or something similar) will achieve the same PQ as these ultimate 2D projectors. I m thinking about getting the D-73d system. I asked the seller about the screen and he is sure that it needs a silver screen. I also checked some reviews on internet and found out the the D-73d was shown on silver screens during demo's.

How can I find out more about the exact technique that is done by the dual stack D-73d projector?

EDIT:
The Runco D-113d ($ 199.000,00) is using the Panavision 3D System
http://www.runco.com/products/projectors/3dimension/3Dimension_D-113d

The Runco D-73d ($ 49.000,00) is using the Real-D 3D System
http://www.runco.com/products/projectors/3dimension/3Dimension_D-73d_Ultra

Can you (maybe again? smile.gif) explain the exact two differences and cons/pros each of these 2 techniques has?

EDIT2:
Can you also explain the exact differences between the VNS GeoBox 201, 301 and 501?

EDIT3 smile.gif):
What do you think about the Infocus SP8604 or 8601?
Edited by sanderdvd - 6/17/13 at 6:45am
post #2119 of 2268
I also found some other candidates:

Acer K750 (LED-laser)
Mitsubishi HC7800D
Sharp XV-Z18000
Viewsonic Pro9000 (LED-laser)
post #2120 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

thxz for your replies motorman. The Runco D-73d system is using a dual 750D projector setup so I don't think that a Benq W7000 dual setup (or something similar) will achieve the same PQ as these ultimate 2D projectors. I m thinking about getting the D-73d system. I asked the seller about the screen and he is sure that it needs a silver screen. I also checked some reviews on internet and found out the the D-73d was shown on silver screens during demo's.

How can I find out more about the exact technique that is done by the dual stack D-73d projector?

EDIT:
The Runco D-113d ($ 199.000,00) is using the Panavision 3D System
http://www.runco.com/products/projectors/3dimension/3Dimension_D-113d

The Runco D-73d ($ 49.000,00) is using the Real-D 3D System
http://www.runco.com/products/projectors/3dimension/3Dimension_D-73d_Ultra

Can you (maybe again? smile.gif) explain the exact two differences and cons/pros each of these 2 techniques has?

EDIT2:
Can you also explain the exact differences between the VNS GeoBox 201, 301 and 501?

EDIT3 smile.gif):
What do you think about the Infocus SP8604 or 8601?

The RealD based system uses circular polarization to separate the right/left stereo pair and as a result requires a silver screen to retain the polarization. The D113d using the Panavision system (I've seen this Runco system in person) does not use polarization and can be used with any normal screen material. That latter system has very high lumens output and is intended for use with a very large screen (e.g., 400 inches). I saw it demo'ed on a 300 inch screen where it had over 100 ft. lamberts off of the screen ( low gain screen as I recall). The Panavision system is the same as the Omega 3D system widely discussed earlier in this thread.

The D113d has nearly 12,000 lumens output (calibrated) while the D-73d uses low output LED projectors that put out only about 450 lumens (calibrated). So these two systems represent two extremes in terms of light output.
Edited by Ron Jones - 6/18/13 at 9:15am
post #2121 of 2268
Have you also seen the D73-d and what did you think about its pq in both 2d and 3d?
post #2122 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Have you also seen the D73-d and what did you think about its pq in both 2d and 3d?

I have not seen the D73-d setup so I have no first hand info on its picture quality. However, just by Runco's own spec. sheet it has rather low lumens output in calibrated mode as compared to just about any moderate priced (e.g.., $2,000 to $10,000) lamp-based projector. It seems clear that their screen size recommendation of 72 inches to 120 inches screen width for 2D mode is unrealistic for the larger end of that range unless you are using a really high gain screen. With only 450 lumens of light output in calibrated mode you would get the frequently suggested 16 ft. lamberts light level off of the screen when using a gain 1.0, 16 x 9 screen that is only 97 inches diagonal (85 inches wide) and this size and gain should give a bright enough image for use in a fully light controlled room. Moving up to a screen with an actual gain of 1.3 would mean you could increase the screen size to 110 inches diagonal and still obtain the desired 16 ft. lamberts. Bottom line is I suspect the D73-d will project a quality image but the screen size must be kept rather small to have an adequately bright image.

Just food for thought. My opinion is the 2D performance will be far better with a Sony VPL-VW1000ES (4K Ultra-HD) projector (with a street price of under 20K) and although a VW1000ES is an single projector offering an active 3D system, it actually does a good job at 3D (mayby not a good for 3D as the better quality two projector passive setups, but still very watchable).
Edited by Ron Jones - 6/18/13 at 2:08pm
post #2123 of 2268
Just get two VW1000s for passive. smile.gif
post #2124 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Just get two VW1000s for passive. smile.gif

Sounds like a plan to me. smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #2125 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBTO View Post

In checking with VNS, these are the supported input formats for the GeoBoxes:

1080p24, 1080p25; Frame-packed 3D
720p50, 720p60, 1080p50, 1080p60; Side-by-side & Top-and-Bottom 3D
1080p50, 1080p60; line interlaced 3D with embedded 3D index

Its output formats are: 1080p24 or 1080p60 right & left signals
....

What's about 2D I/O formats, does it support frame rate conversion? 24->48->72
post #2126 of 2268
They support those formats listed, and don't do any frame rate conversions to my knowledge.

Not sure what you mean by 2D I/O formats. If the input is a 2D signal, it will be passed to both output channels as long as it has one of the listed formats.
Edited by RBTO - 7/15/13 at 5:19pm
post #2127 of 2268
Been away from this thread for a while since I sold my two BenQ W6000's... I'm thinking about starting a new project and want opinions!

I will be doing a polarized setup, I like what motorman is offing with the Omega system and have his filters, but I can't deal with the light loss and color balance issues with my budget. Here are the different options I am considering with the pros and cons of each, hopefully this will help others with ideas of how to start a passive setup

BEST:

2- Epson 5010 ($1600 each REFURB) with wave retarders/ DaLite 3D Virtual Grey screen/ 2- 3DXL boxes or Geobox
Pros: -Bright image, because the 5010 have the internal polarization aligned the light loss will only be 20-30%
-Great Blacks and Contrast, the 5010 has the best black levels under $2000
Cons: -Price

BETTER:

2- ACER 9500BD ($1100 each REFURB) with linear filters/ DaLite 3D screen/ 3DXL or Geobox
Pros: -Great blacks which are close to the 5010
-Lens shift on a DLP
Cons: -About a 50% drop in brightness for 3D compared to the 5010's
-2000 hr lamp life (will also hurt brightness)

GOOD:

2- Optoma HD25-LV ($1300 new) with linear filters/ DaLite 3D screen
Pros: -No external box needed to feed L & R images to the projectors
-High lumen output
Cons: -No lens shift
-Average Black levels
-Despite high lumen output it will still lose 50% of bightness




I am also considering two BenQ W1070 but I think the drop in lumens and the need for a 3D box puts it below the Optoma despite it missing a lens shift feature.
post #2128 of 2268
You are forgetting the biggest con of the dual Epson setup: color difference between left and right.
post #2129 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

You are forgetting the biggest con of the dual Epson setup: color difference between left and right.
With half wave retarders there will be color shifts even though the polarization is aligned?
post #2130 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

You are forgetting the biggest con of the dual Epson setup: color difference between left and right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

With half wave retarders there will be color shifts even though the polarization is aligned?

Since the Epson 5010, 5020 (and 6010 and 6020) have their polarization aligned for all three primaries, I wouldn't expect a color shift issue. However, the other Epson models (e.g., 8250, etc) have the green polarization shifted 90 degrees from red and blue and this is more difficult to deal with.
Edited by Ron Jones - 7/15/13 at 12:07pm
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