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The Ultimate 3D projection system: A Practical Discussion Thread - Page 72

post #2131 of 2268
Ron, I have read that the 5020 and 6020 went back to the 90 degree offset for green, I think this was confirmed in this thread.
post #2132 of 2268
Wait a minute, I am not technical but am I reading between the lines here that by using a dual stack 5010 or 6010 there won t be any color diffierence (or only minimal) when using the Panavision solution with a Geobox??!!! If so, that is THE ultimate passive 3D solution: 2 very good projectors with GREAT black level and high contrast!

Motorman, come in. Motorman, come in please smile.gifsmile.gif
post #2133 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Ron, I have read that the 5020 and 6020 went back to the 90 degree offset for green, I think this was confirmed in this thread.

I'll do some testing and report back. It would seem rather odd that they made that change from the 5010 to the 5020, but anything is possible.

UPDATE: I have just completed testing an Epson 5020UB and all 3 primary colors have the same orientation for their polarization. Since my regular screen has a matte surface and does not retain polarization, I hung a sample of a 'silver screen' material from the top of my current screen. I then used the AVS HD Calibration Disc and played in sequence full screen Red, then Green, then Blue test pattern. When viewing the image from the "silver screen" material through a linear polarizing filter the images for all 3 primary colors had the same polarization (i.e., the same as with the Epson 5010), with the minimum and maximum brightest points, as seen through the viewing filter, being the same for all 3 colors. I do not know what testing approach another AVS member previously used when he reported the polarization was not aligned for the primaries on the 5020, but my testing indicates they are in fact aligned.


.
Edited by Ron Jones - 7/16/13 at 1:23pm
post #2134 of 2268
that would be a weird change, since so little else has changed. You don't need to do all you did to test either. Just play white and put the linear filter in the path and rotate it. The projected image through the filter will go from white to black if they are aligned, and go from green to purple if they aren't.
post #2135 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

that would be a weird change, since so little else has changed. You don't need to do all you did to test either. Just play white and put the linear filter in the path and rotate it. The projected image through the filter will go from white to black if they are aligned, and go from green to purple if they aren't.

Did that too with a white test pattern. One effect to watch out for with a white image is as you rotate the viewing filter to very near the point where the filter's orientation is 90 deg. off from the projector's polarization, you will see some color shift before the image goes black. However this is just a little difference in how sharp the light drop-off is for one primary color vs. another as the viewing filter approaches it null point. I used the test patterns for the individual colors to verify the peak and null orientations are the same for all 3 primary colors.
post #2136 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Wait a minute, I am not technical but am I reading between the lines here that by using a dual stack 5010 or 6010 there won t be any color diffierence (or only minimal) when using the Panavision solution with a Geobox??!!! If so, that is THE ultimate passive 3D solution: 2 very good projectors with GREAT black level and high contrast!

Motorman, come in. Motorman, come in please smile.gifsmile.gif

No, in my original post I pointed out that these projectors would be using polarization... with the omega system you will still have unbalanced colors with the 5010 and all other projector.

Thanks for testing the 5020, I also found it hard to believe they would make that change but thought it was true after another member indicated that green on his 5020 was offset at 90 degrees. Still for a dual stackI would rather save $ and get refurb 5010s.
post #2137 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Still for a dual stackI would rather save $ and get refurb 5010s.
But you will have color imbalance with this setup right?
post #2138 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

But you will have color imbalance with this setup right?

No, if you POLARIZE the 5010 using half wave retarders there will be no color shifts and only about 20% light loss, you will however need a silverscreen.
post #2139 of 2268
Hi. I wrote to the Video Innovation Products (3D-VIP) about 3D Evolver. Below is the response from them. You had a chance to test this product yet? Are considering to purchase in the very near future one Geobox 501,but I saw that this product appeared. What do you think about it about 3D Evolver?


"Hello,

The evolver takes the input via a single HDMI cable. The Omega 3D kit and our processor work so fantastically together that you don’t need a perfect alignment to get the best 3D output possible. We have compared our solution to SONY 4K projector and have been told ours is far better than the Sony solution with Depth Q. We do not recommend auto alignment as it effects the picture quality – a compromise. However, if you are within a close proximity of manual alignment – very easily accomplished via stacking, you will not see any ghosting whatsoever. Our processor also includes 2D enhanced mode.

The unit retail price is $999.00. Given you have the filters and glasses, you should have an amazing performance from the setup.



All the best and cheers!"
post #2140 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

No, if you POLARIZE the 5010 using half wave retarders there will be no color shifts and only about 20% light loss, you will however need a silverscreen.
Maybe it s just me but why the #/@$@/#!! hasn t this been discussed more widely!! This would mean that you can have a passive 3d system with the use of two lcd projectors with great black level performance (far better then dlp). So what i would need are two tw9000s (i m in europe), a geobox 501, a silver screen and the lcd kit from motorman45?

What are half wave retarders?
post #2141 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Maybe it s just me but why the #/@$@/#!! hasn t this been discussed more widely!! This would mean that you can have a passive 3d system with the use of two lcd projectors with great black level performance (far better then dlp). So what i would need are two tw9000s (i m in europe), a geobox 501, a silver screen and the lcd kit from motorman45?

What are half wave retarders?

You're still missing the difference between what motorman sells and polarized filters. The omega filters and polarization are two different approaches to passive 3D. When you watch a movie in RealD theaters you are using polarization, Dolby 3D uses a similar filter with the same concept of the Omega system. Polarization requires a silverscreen and does not provide the high extinction ratios that Omega offers, but also doesn't require color correction. By using certain LCD/LCOS projectors that have all three colors internally polarized at the same angle you can retain up to 80% of the light output by using a half wave retarder. I won't go into the wave retarder explanation here, if you are interested you can find everything you need to know here.... http://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-technical-blog/passive-3d-projection-part-5.html

By using two Epson 5010, half wave retarders, and a silverscreen made to retain polarization, you would keep ~80% of your light output in 3D and not have to do any color correction. Since the 5010 is a light cannon with great black levels this would be my ideal setup.

Again, I own the Omega kit and have used it with a BenQ W6000 stack. The Omega system COMPLETELY eliminates ghosting, but it also cuts out 50% of the light output and causes color shifts in each projector that IMO cannot be corrected to an acceptable level. I was able to get the colors close but at the expense of another 20-30% light reduction.

This is only my opinion but I would rather sacrifice the extinction ratio (meaning there will be a small amount of ghosting) and gain a bright picture with proper colors by going polarized. If done right it is still hard to spot ghosting with linear polarization.
post #2142 of 2268
i agree that with an LCD and LCos projectors you can get some color imbalance some do not like with the omega filters. with these using wave plates / circualr polarizers you can get more lumens thru but have some ghosting. there is a small amount of color variation with eye movement due to the fact that polarizers do not evenly polarize all colors to the same level at all angles. its small but for the perfectionist it is there.

i would dissagree that the omega filters have big color differances on All projectors, there are a lot of DLP units that it is barely perceptable ( ive posted pics with color test patterns ) . but when personal opionions come into play instead measurements of color tests its hard to know without seeing. and n ot everyone can afford to test all setups.

i wish i could run spectral tests on a large number of projectors and then offer variations but i dont have a budget that allows that. i have a couple of Pro AV installers that love the omeaga filters on the Sony LCoS projectors. go figure.

as for the ultimate passive 3d system it seems to depend on ones preferances, i dont dissagree with those that feel polarizers on an LCD dual stack is the ultimate. it can look amazing. it depends on what you want to do with it i guess. some prefer no ghosting as it means for less eye strain, some want the deepest black levels and still others want only high frame rate.

cost aside from the debate i can say with conviction that the omega filters on a pair of xenon based 3 chip DLP projectors is as close to perfect as one can get. sorry if that seems biased but there is no color differance, no ghosting, no silver screen hot spotting and no rainbow. ive setup and testing systems like this, just wish i could own one lol
post #2143 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

omega filters on a pair of xenon based 3 chip DLP projectors is as close to perfect as one can get. sorry if that seems biased but there is no color differance, no ghosting, no silver screen hot spotting and no rainbow. ive setup and testing systems like this, just wish i could own one lol

Even though I have not seen this in person, I still agree with you completely. I know it may be possible to find some used xenon DLPs at a reasonable price, I just haven't looked long and hard enough. I do know that Wolfgang uses the newest Infitec filters on his dual Barco 4K home theater and said he only slightly prefers them to the Omega, and those cost a good bit more $$.

With a $5,000 budget I would choose the 5010 polarized setup, with a $10,000 budget I would start looking at used xenon DLPs for the Omega kit.
post #2144 of 2268
its funny about the infitec he has, he posted photos of the infitec setup on his screen and the image color balance looked like green magenta anaglyph, no color correction server. oh on that note i may have found an affordable color correction software... brillaint guy with clever software, still looking into how to use it.
post #2145 of 2268
Well after reading Art's review of the Optoma HD25-LV, this may be my new choice for passive 3D and will at least be moved up to second on the list behind the Epson 5010s. The 5010s will still have better blacks and more light output with a polarized setup along with a lens shift feature, but the HD25-LV is really compelling.

So why the HD25-LV? Well LV stands for large venue meaning its bright, going by Art's numbers I think you could get about 2000 lumens (of the 3200 claimed) and still have a great image. It also has great black levels, not quite on par with the 5010 but close, he mentions it being about the same as the Acer 9500BD. The best part is the built in 3DXL capability of showing the L or R frame of 3D for a passive setup.

This could be great for Omega or Polarized, if I get it I will probably use both depending on how close I can get the colors to match.

Blackshark, can you imagine having 6 of these things in an eyefinity setup, no 3DXL needed just alot a graphics power and a few HDMI splitters!!!
post #2146 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

Well after reading Art's review of the Optoma HD25-LV, this may be my new choice for passive 3D and will at least be moved up to second on the list behind the Epson 5010s. The 5010s will still have better blacks and more light output with a polarized setup along with a lens shift feature, but the HD25-LV is really compelling.

So why the HD25-LV? Well LV stands for large venue meaning its bright, going by Art's numbers I think you could get about 2000 lumens (of the 3200 claimed) and still have a great image. It also has great black levels, not quite on par with the 5010 but close, he mentions it being about the same as the Acer 9500BD. The best part is the built in 3DXL capability of showing the L or R frame of 3D for a passive setup.

This could be great for Omega or Polarized, if I get it I will probably use both depending on how close I can get the colors to match.

Blackshark, can you imagine having 6 of these things in an eyefinity setup, no 3DXL needed just alot a graphics power and a few HDMI splitters!!!

But the lens is only 1.2:1, Motorman said you need at least 1.5:1 for the filter to work correctly. Also, even with 3DXL capability, the Geobox 501 is still helpful if you want perfect alignment of the pixels.
post #2147 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

But the lens is only 1.2:1, Motorman said you need at least 1.5:1 for the filter to work correctly. Also, even with 3DXL capability, the Geobox 501 is still helpful if you want perfect alignment of the pixels.

the throw ratio needs to be 1.5:1 not the lens. the lens is a 1.2 but thats not the throw ratio. http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-HD25-LV-projection-calculator-pro.htm

this looks like a very good projector for a dual stack
post #2148 of 2268
Hi there,

is it possible to play in 1080p 3D 60Hz with nvidia 3D vision on a passiv 3D dual projector solution WITH a Nvidia professional QUADRO card?

In the help of nvidia, I understand it is possible but I can't be sure until someone has tried it out:
http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3012/~/how-to-configure-passive-or-dual-pipe-stereo-with-quadro-cards-in-windows-7

Could you please try it Motormann?

You don't need an 3D vision emitter to activate 3D vision since there is an emulator for this:
http://3dvision-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=997

It would be GREAT news if we could activate 3D vision for GAMES with a quadro card on a dual projector setup with passive 3D 1080p 60Hz... BECAUSE there is now a HACK for modding a nvidia Geforce GTX 680 (350€) into a Quadro K5000 (1500€):
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/hacking-nvidia-cards-into-their-professional-counterparts/msg207550/#msg207550

Cheers,
Soulnight wink.gif
post #2149 of 2268
the nvidia 3d vision dose not support dual projection no matter what the card. it is a version of stereoscopic player. that program supports dual projection but is not setup for playing games that i know of. ive tried 3d vision to do this. i will read the articles you posted and see what i can find out. i do know tridef ignition works as a game interface for 3d games on a pc with a qudro card, this works great.
if you do the mod to a gts card to make it a quadro it would work i think with the tridef software. the 60hz is another issue im not sure about, some projectors own video processor may be the issue but i dont have a way to test it.
post #2150 of 2268
i may be mistaken about 3d vision after looking at the article. ill try it when i can.
post #2151 of 2268
Blackshark is the guy to ask about this, I think he said with the pro cards it is possible and that there is a frame lock feature.
post #2152 of 2268
nvidia 3D vision drivers used to support dual projection. They took it out. To play games in passive you need to use 3rd party drivers like the TriDef drivers.
post #2153 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

nvidia 3D vision drivers used to support dual projection. They took it out. To play games in passive you need to use 3rd party drivers like the TriDef drivers.

that only supports dx9 on dualscreen mode ....waa waaa waaa....
so you need demultiplexer to rock with good graphics...
it´s a shame tridef does not shout about this. ... propably loose many candidates about to purchase.
post #2154 of 2268
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

nvidia 3D vision drivers used to support dual projection. They took it out. To play games in passive you need to use 3rd party drivers like the TriDef drivers.

They took it out of the geforce drivers for the geforce cards but it is still maybe possible with the quadro drivers with a "quadro" card rolleyes.gif. I'm waiting for Motormann to try it like the nvidia articles explains it. Thanks!
post #2155 of 2268
The demux is clearly the way to go. Crazy that the only one available is 2k though and does nothing else.
post #2156 of 2268
ive got the geobox 201 demux for sale that is very good and $699..
post #2157 of 2268
if only it demuxed 1080p120
post #2158 of 2268
yes 720p is it at now. allthough i heard there might be firmware update at some point to test out 1080p120Hz ...it´s all alabout the edid i inderstood. the box can do it. the official licence just costs.
allthough i don´t get why everybody foams about 1080p120 ..i don´t even use 720p120hz , i have ax200 setup and i use 720p@60hz and i think it give fast enough gameplay wth solid framerate.

Everybody should bare in mind the fact that you really don´t need the doors to the backseat of a car untill you have them. it´s ok to tilt the front seat and squeeze through the
hole.... but just untill you get to test something better.
all is relative
post #2159 of 2268
It's for 3D (gaming) that you need the pssibility of 120hz 1080p. Each eye can then get 60hz.
post #2160 of 2268
Its not like that.its refreshmentrate, it does not get devided. If its 720@120 hz its 120 for both eyes.
And i can prove it simply by this. If i set my graphic card output to 720p@120hz i get distorted picture to both my projectors (ax200) panasonic ax200 does not support 120hz but 60 max so this proves my theory. + avs explained it also... he refreshrate is not splitted 720p@120hz is 120hz to each projector.
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