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Mark's From the Ground up Cinema Build - Page 3

post #61 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTR7 View Post

How'd the Crestron meeting go?

Any updates on the project front?

Funny you ask as today I received the bid from the Crestron guy. I really wasn't sure what to expect from him. I will say his bid was very throrall and well planned. He bid everything from installing 4 tvs (60"' 40", and (2) 37's in the house, mounting brackets, cables, $3000 equipment rack allowance, Intelix 4 x 4 matrix, the Cat6 Balun receivers, a 110" screen for my theater, 5 zone Sonos with triad 6" speakers, 4 Crestron ML-600 Mini LCD handheld remotes, 4 zone crestron thermostats, integration with my Elk Alarm panel and Lutron lighting control, Crestron AV2 economical data bus (how can Crestron use this word?...there is a new AV3 coming out), all and all about $45K bid with $10K of it programing labor. Wow, in my automotive mind this is a pretty nice new car. Showed bid to wife and she just looked at the bottom line and handed it back to me without a comment...........it's really bad when woman are so upset they cant even yell at you. I just started looking at it tonight and there are definitely things I do not need.......5 Crestron thermostats at $500 each and $1500 in program labor for a total of $4000 just to control my thermostats with my ipad is without a question not a good use of money. I just spent $1000 today to install two HAI thermostats in my garage and guest house and it is tied into my Elk alarm system I can access anytime from any place. Maybe not the cool factor of the Crestron but I can program the thermostats to go into economy mode once I set the alarm and they either turn back on when I disarm the system or I can turn the A/C up when I am on my way home. This is just an example but as much as I love the bells, whistles, and the name brands I still need to "value engineer" my media room and whole house automation. The AVS forum has been such a wealth of knowledge and has helped me work through most of my questions building my room. Anyway, I am going to get my pencil out and start marking through things like the HVAC and other items which are not a good use of money and get back with this guy. If I was only building the media room it would not be so bad but with this whole house build I am going to need some help. We got our barrel tile roof on this past week but for the most part I have been stuck on this automation problem. I am hoping to get some feedback from members on my comments here. 30 days ago I really wanted complete integration with one app on my ipad but after doing my do diligence I am willing to close one app to move to another after finding out the cost of the convenience.
post #62 of 410
I would probably ditch the ML-600's and use URC MX-900's or MX-980's. They will communicate with the crestron system over the crestron rf gateways and IMO they are much nicer remotes.

You should be able to talk to the HAI stats & the security system from the crestron system. Usually... using different control systems creates more programming labor and using 3rd party stats may remove some of the features you would have had with the crestron thermostats... but... Sometimes its acceptable.

The crestron thermostats were born to eliminate the "will it work" head scratching. But keep in mind that crestron was talking to HVAC systems long before they had a thermostat with their logo on it.
post #63 of 410
Thread Starter 
FINALLY I have got my media room back on track. I hit the wall when I decided whole house automation was more important to me than when I started my project and I wanted to move my lighting design to a higher level. We have lots of professionals on this forum and as much of a hands on guy I have there is nothing like bringing in someone who is a professional in their field to direct you to a higher level of quality. Great products are only as good as the installation and I based my decision on the guy who I felt could bring the most expertise to my project. Two days ago we removed the 2 Homeworks panels and I pulled all of the Lutron wiring out of the house and media equipment room. Today they dropped off the three Vantage Panels which as of now are installed.



I finally received the 36 inch fiber optic dome I plan on using for the center piece of the ceiling. The wife wanted me to leave the ceiling alone but I finally talked her into letting me cut the middle of the arch's out to install the dome. This picture below is my brother cutting out two 46 inch in diameter plywood rings.



We then cut 7 inch lengths 2 x 4's and wrapped the cylinder with masonite.



Cut the center out of the arch's and installed cylinder Check out this picture, I actually snapped the picture as the center section of the arch's was falling....you can see one of my employees in the rafters who struck the final blow sending the center section to the floor.....its a little blurry but if you look in the middle of the picture you'll se it falling!!!





The fiber optic dome is made out of fiberglass.....here is a picture of the back of it with the fiber's installed. They are glued in the back and extend 3 to 4 inches through the dome. There is a 30 foot long fiber cord which will run back to the media equipment room for the illuminator. The dome will eventually be faux painted (gold?) and then the fibers will be trimmed back.


post #64 of 410
Good to see you're back on track.

I would love to hear more about what you decided to do with the whole house automation too.
post #65 of 410
was wondering what happened... Lots of progress and then a sudden stop...
post #66 of 410
Some people have too much dang money..lol..I bet you have health insurance too hu??.....nice build.
post #67 of 410
Even though I will never be able to afford what you are doing, I still love all the pictures and update you are doing. Keep up the great work, and keep the pic's coming. Love the build.

Duddley
post #68 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikieson View Post

Some people have too much dang money..lol..I bet you have health insurance too hu??.....nice build.

dude, don't be so hard on me......ouch that hurt!! thanks for the thumbs up my friend.
post #69 of 410
Wow. I'll be watching this build as it progresses. Great job. The attention to detail is amazing.

Let me know if you are still looking for options on the home automation side of things. It looks like you already have the Elk installed which is a great choice. If your existing thermostats are already connected and controlled from the Elk system, then you wouldn't need to replace them and still get iPad control for under several hundred dollars.

I second others on the role of devices like the iPad. They are great for doing bigger item things, but I wouldn't want to use it for channel surfing and transport controls during a movie. A tactile, no looking down, remote has many advantages.
post #70 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcascio View Post


Let me know if you are still looking for options on the home automation side of things. It looks like you already have the Elk installed which is a great choice. If your existing thermostats are already connected and controlled from the Elk system, then you wouldn't need to replace them and still get iPad control for under several hundred dollars.

I second others on the role of devices like the iPad. They are great for doing bigger item things, but I wouldn't want to use it for channel surfing and transport controls during a movie. A tactile, no looking down, remote has many advantages.

I really love the Elk security panel because it is a great product, I have good local support, and the software builder iPhone/Ipad App is continuing to expand its flexibility. I am currently controlling two HAI Omnistat 2's in my garage and it works great. I set my alarm system with my iphone and the thermostats go to economy mode. I can disarm the alarm on the way home and my thermostats with turn back up to a comfortable setting.......or go in and adjust the thermostats manually. I planned on using the Elk panel in the house for the 4 zones of heating and air but now I am using the Vantage I have the option of controlling the HVAC using Vantage thermostats. I really got hung up want to have one application (example Crestron) to run the whole shootin' match but the cost of the "convenience" of not having to open up a second application was more expense than i wanted to bear. I am really happy sharing the control of the house between Vantage and Elk. What I like about the whole house automation is the fact I really dont have to do much around the house in the way of pushing buttons......night time lighting, fountains, and inside lighting comes on when I program it and when I sit down to watch a movie or tv I can push one button.......kind of makes you lazy!!

What kind of "tactile remote" are you using. I have my temporary theater set up and I am only using my ipad or iphone to run my system via iRule.
post #71 of 410
^^^ was iRule easy to setup for simple HT use?
post #72 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbraden32 View Post
^^^ was iRule easy to setup for simple HT use?
My understanding of audio is above average, my understanding of networking and computers is average and I did good with it. I ain't too smart but I am stubborn and it worked out good for me cause I kept messing with it. If your willing to tinker you'll get it. It is about a $200 investment ($150 equipment $50 app) and you need to have a iphone, itouch, or iPad. If you dont have an iPad I personally would not use it. I have it on my iPhone but the screen is small and you do alot of navigating. Again, as was said before I guess a handheld remote is always necessary and the iPad control is the gimmick.
post #73 of 410
^^^thanks. No iPad for ^^^^me yet just the other two, touch and iPhone.


Guess I'll look at other options such as a Harmony.
post #74 of 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by IGO2XS View Post


My understanding of audio is above average, my understanding of networking and computers is average and I did good with it. I ain't too smart but I am stubborn and it worked out good for me cause I kept messing with it. If your willing to tinker you'll get it. It is about a $200 investment ($150 equipment $50 app) and you need to have a iphone, itouch, or iPad. If you dont have an iPad I personally would not use it. I have it on my iPhone but the screen is small and you do alot of navigating. Again, as was said before I guess a handheld remote is always necessary and the iPad control is the gimmick.

Unless the iPad were chained to ht, it'd end up on the bathroom in our house.
post #75 of 410
Thread Starter 
I have been working pretty consistent on the media room and wiring of the Vantage Lighting Control in the last 2 weeks. I do have a Vantage Dealer overseeing the project and a licensed electrician but I am taking a role in the installation. I am running all of the proprietary wire for the Vantage keypads, motions, and led lighting. I am using a lighted keypads in each room in the house and they have a IR reciever built in. I will be uploading some photos in a few days of the progress.

What I did come up with today is the first draft of the wall unit for the media room. It will be built at a friends cabinet shop and it will be a dark stained....possibly distressed.......but definitely a old world looking finish. I will have a space 144 inches wide for my screen between both ends. I have gone back and forth on center channel speaker placement and at the end of the day I decided I would mount the center channel speaker just under the screen. I did consider mounting it behind the screen but it is over 16 inches deep and I did not want to add 20 to 24 inches of space behind the screen.

I definitely have some obstacles to face in terms of sound and design. There is always a balance between form and function and this is why I maintain an open mind as I gather information. Comments suggestions ideas are always welcome. When I started the house I had planned March to be the month of drywall and I guess I missed it. I really feel I can strongly consider drywall by May 15. Stay tuned.







post #76 of 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by IGO2XS View Post
I have gone back and forth on center channel speaker placement and at the end of the day I decided I would mount the center channel speaker just under the screen.
What made you decide to mount your center channel below the screen, as opposed to above the screen (instead of behind)? With multiple rows of seating, you might run into trouble with the center channel not being as audible as it should be beyond the first row. Just a thought.
post #77 of 410
Did you look at Control4 at all? (I didn't read through your whole thread)... for what I was looking to do it was $30k less with Control 4 for the same functionality vs Crestron.
post #78 of 410
Will the middle section below the screen actually be curved as the drawing shows? And does that mean curved doors or panels as well to match? If so, I'm building something roughly similar in overall shape and concept, although decidely smaller: 96 inches between side panels, 22-inch wide side-panel doors and only 90 inches tall (138 inches! Looxury!). The main difference is that my structure is not a cabinet. It's based on a frame of 2x2's attached to the floor and ceiling joists and all surfaces will be cloth except for a door on each side above the left and right speakers (which will be on speaker stands) and the surface directly below the screen (which someone might well try to sit on, so it has to be solid). The panels in front of my speakers will be AT cloth. I mention all this not to hijack your inspiring thread, but as background for a few comments:

- Your cabinet will necessarily have a lot of solid surfaces near your speakers. That will color the sound greatly. Avoiding that is the reason I'm doing a (mostly) open frame and cloth surfaces. I'll also be putting 2 to 4 inch thick bonded cotton on all wall surfaces inside the speaker "cavities" to effectively increase the distance of all surfaces from the speakers.

- I think those bars are definitely going to affect the sound, especially if any end up in front of or sufficiently near a tweeter. And it looks like you have wood (edges of center two doors?) right in front of the middle of the center channel, where the tweeter usually is - even worse.

- I think you should avoid placing the center channel on top of the sub. First, directly in the center may not (will likely not) be the best place for the sub acoustically. Second, the center channel will probably "rattle." Moving the sub several feet left or right along your front wall to find the best position (within that placement limitation) will be possible if you make all four panels/doors in the front acoustically transparent and build a small shelf for the center channel to effectively suspend it above and out of the way of the sub.

- To HDvids4all's comment, you might try tilting the center channel up about 10 to 12 degrees. In my case I only have one row of seating but I'm still doing that to ensure the tone of the tweeter is closer to that heard from the left and right speakers, which are already at ear level. If you build a shelf for the center channel you can do that fairly easily.
post #79 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDvids4all View Post

What made you decide to mount your center channel below the screen, as opposed to above the screen (instead of behind)? With multiple rows of seating, you might run into trouble with the center channel not being as audible as it should be beyond the first row. Just a thought.

Thanks for commenting because I have been wishy washy on center channel placement. I proposed mounting the center channel speaker under the screen because I could install it in a cabinet. The center channel measures 37" wide, 14" tall, and almost 18" deep which would set my screen out 24" until I cut a hole in the concrete block wall and built a steel structure. I will mock the speakers up in the configuration I am talking about and post them for members review.
post #80 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamK View Post

Did you look at Control4 at all? (I didn't read through your whole thread)... for what I was looking to do it was $30k less with Control 4 for the same functionality vs Crestron.

The local installer for Control 4 is Best Buy and I was concerned about their support. Vantage does have some audio video options I can use for my theater room and whole house video control. However, I have not seen anyone post any comments about using the Vantage system for anything other than lighting control. The Vantage guy I am using is top notch integrator and he networks with a guy who helped Vantage with their iPad app so I am hoping they can help me out.
post #81 of 410
Yea Best Buy isn't a great Control 4 option. We have a great dealer base up here by me... I'm really suprised there are not any more options out there for you... The thing with Control 4 is that its all about the programing and that can be done remotely. You get someone to do the hand labor and I can give you the number of my installer who I highly recommend, he did great work for us.
post #82 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GI Joe Sixpack View Post

Will the middle section below the screen actually be curved as the drawing shows? And does that mean curved doors or panels as well to match?

- Your cabinet will necessarily have a lot of solid surfaces near your speakers.

- I think you should avoid placing the center channel on top of the sub.

- To HDvids4all's comment, you might try tilting the center channel up about 10 to 12 degrees. In my case I only have one row of seating but I'm still doing that to ensure the tone of the tweeter is closer to that heard from the left and right speakers, which are already at ear level. If you build a shelf for the center channel you can do that fairly easily.

Good advise...........I really feel the main speakers will be built in to the cabinet and open to the room w/o bars...............I wanted to see them anyway.......paid too much money to hide them behind bars Kind of like bringing a stripper to a bachlor party and having her wear and raincoat!!!! These cabinets are designed to be built in if necessary.

On the center channel I agree it should be separated from the sub, angled up slightly, and no door frames to cover the speakers. I had hoped to have enough room in the cabinet to light up the sub behind accountically transparent fabric. I have seen some guys light speakers up behind their movie screen and it looks way cool. I know people go to great lenghts to hide components but I want to look at them. If you look back in my thread you will see the theater room I had before with the main speakers framed in and visible. They were tilted up about 10 degrees because they were mounted close to the floor. thanks again.
post #83 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamK View Post

Yea Best Buy isn't a great Control 4 option. We have a great dealer base up here by me... I'm really suprised there are not any more options out there for you... The thing with Control 4 is that its all about the programing and that can be done remotely. You get someone to do the hand labor and I can give you the number of my installer who I highly recommend, he did great work for us.

great, why dont you pm me his information. I would be glad to speak with him. thanks
post #84 of 410
Thread Starter 
I made a little progress the last few days. I decided to add a Leviton panel for my video cables. Each TV location in the house will have one RG6, two cat6, and one cat5e. In the top of the panel I have (6) 1 inch pvc pipes which run to each tv location. I figure if I forget a wire I can always add later. Last week the icining was sprayed in the ceiling of the house. I made sure to cover most of the wiring clusters so they would not be glued in the insulation



Trying to drill multiple holes in the top of a low voltage panel presented some obstacles because of the punch outs. I found a piece of 1/8" aluminum diamond plate in my shop which allowed me to drill through the top of the panel with a 1 inch step bit.



I framed in a tv mounted just outside the theater door. Since it is between the rear door of the house and the kitchen I figured I could make good use of it because its central location. I can put the ip camera's on this, shuttle photos of family and friends, or have a video feed of the movie while it is playing. I notched out the back of the 2x 6 studs to add a piece of 3/4 inch plywood. It is a perfect play to add a tv mount and builds in the tv for a cleaner look. You can see the 1 inch pvc pipe which leads back to my video panel which for now is empty.



I guess I have a chase pipe fetish. Before we poured the slab I ran four 1 1/2" pipes from the equipment room wall (lower arrow) to the front of the theater room to the main, sub-woofer,and center channel speaker locations. I also ran two more 1 1/2" pipes overhead (upper arrow) for who knows what. To the right is one of the 3 Chief racks I purchased which will fill the opening between the equipment room and the theater area. Since there are also rack rails in the back I can utililize them for any equipment I need to mount from the inside of the equipment room.


post #85 of 410
Thread Starter 
After I posted my pictures of the wall unit I had some pretty good comments concerning my center channel location in the cabinet. One thing I knew for sure was the center channel speaker needed to match my mains and it should be located at the same distance from the floor. Although my media room is 27 feet deep I just did not want to give up the depth of the room by moving my screen in closer so I could get the center channel speaker behind the screen. Well, my only option was to cut a opening in the side of the house we are building...............stucco and exterior paint was just finished last week! The thread comments got me to think it over again and I brought in a few second opinions from other friends of mine and finally arrived at a solution. The inside was a no brainer but what would I do outside to make this bump out look right. Yesterday the concrete saw came out and following is a pictorial of our progress so far.







The plywood arched box you see on the outside will be stucco'ed. I will then brick around the outside to match the arch on the garage fountain. If you check out post #41 on my thread you can see the garage and the brick feature I want to match.



Below is a aluminum box I had fabricated to use as an insert which will be bolted in from the inside of the room. There is 6 inches of space between this aluminum insert and the framing which will allow plenty of insulation to separate them. The inside of the box will be lined with 1/2 inch sound board.



I have also decided I will sell my Genelec 1038BC center channel speaker and purchase another Genelec 1034B main monitor to match my main speakers. This system should just rip your ears off in a very pleasant way
post #86 of 410
Well, I guess your handle really is pretty literal. Congrats, this is really cool. Keep the photos coming.
post #87 of 410
Holy cow! I would never have thought that advice from the forum community could have such drastic consequences!
post #88 of 410
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GI Joe Sixpack View Post

Holy cow! I would never have thought that advice from the forum community could have such drastic consequences!

Ha Ha Becareful what you say to me cause if you have a good idea I'm stealing it!! Really, there is a lot of knowledge and experience on this forum and I am taking advantage of it.
post #89 of 410
Thread Starter 
I have been working night and day the past few weeks as I have finally made a decision to drywall the house. I finally had to set a date for the drywall to be done because it was time. I have spent nearly 3 months on the wiring and I can only hope I have every wire I need.......I certainly made a pretty good effort. Of course I lost at least 30 days when I decided to remove the Lutron system and install the Vantage system but I am not regretting the change. I gained a fantastic lighting control guy who has helped me get a more professional result. We now have an as built plan showing were every wire goes in the house.......wires are labeled and numbered. I did not run the electric wiring but I have run every bit of cat5, cat6, rg6, and Vantage control wire in the house. I wish I would have kept track of all of it.

Below is a picture of the platform I built for my projector. this box will be drywalled on the equipment room side. You will notice a blue nail on box just above the projector about 16 inches. This will house a thermostat as we did wire a inline fan which will exhaust the air to the outside of the house in case the temperature reaches a certain degree. The media room and equipment room do have a dedicated A/C system but with projector, server, computers, and all those other heat generating devices i wanted to make sure I had all bases covered. Below the projector stand is the 100 amp dedicated panel I have for the equipment room.




I have held back taking many photos lately because of the wiring mess I have had going on while getting everything pulled. As you can see I have conduit run about everyplace I could think of. Did I mention my fear of forgetting about a wire??? The box you see inset in the wall will be drywalled and will allow my computer screen to be mounted flush with the wall. I really like equipment built in. The make shift table out of 3/8 inch plywood is actually going to make it into the design. I will be building a cabinet there with a top which should make a good work table for me. The cabinet will house a ups for all of the panels as we have wired all of the low voltage, alarm, and wiring panels to this location. In case of power outage I should be OK.

post #90 of 410
Thread Starter 
I almost forgot to post a picture of the Vantage panels. We have two of them taped up and one is visible. We labeled every wire in those panels and they match the as built electrical plan diagram. Below the Vantage panels we added the lower panel on the left for automated drapes/blinds. I ran 10 shade wires to a few key windows in the house so in the future I can add motorized blinds. I do have one motorized drape in the media room I will be using for sure.

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