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Outlaw 978/998 announcement and discussion thread - Page 6

post #151 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Without new products to offer, they have to be hurting.

Yep.

Actually, the ball dropped when they moved away from Trinnov and went to Audissey XT32.

With the the Sherwood's R-972's EOL, Outlaw would have been the only affordable game in town if you want Trinnov (and after hearing what Trinnov does, I'd hate to go back to Audyssey).

I know Trinnov was probably harder to implement than Audyssey. But without Trinnov, Outlaw gave up the one truly compelling reason to chose it over the larger manufacturers, who will be implementing XT32 in cheaper and more feature-rich units by the time Outlaw pushes their product out.

Bummer.
post #152 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2MuchHT View Post

OR, you could just take them at their word that they simply wanted to not have to deal with moving one particular product that's heavy and a pain to transport from one location to the other.

I never thought Outlaw was lying I just thought one item on sale was not much of a sale. I would say there are many heavy components in their warehouse besides the LFM-1 Plus sub. I feel that Outlaw is an excellent company and wish them the best with their new processors.

Bill
post #153 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

Yep.

Actually, the ball dropped when they moved away from Trinnov and went to Audissey XT32.

With the the Sherwood's R-972's EOL, Outlaw would have been the only affordable game in town if you want Trinnov (and after hearing what Trinnov does, I'd hate to go back to Audyssey).

I know Trinnov was probably harder to implement than Audyssey. But without Trinnov, Outlaw gave up the one truly compelling reason to chose it over the larger manufacturers, who will be implementing XT32 in cheaper and more feature-rich units by the time Outlaw pushes their product out.

Bummer.

I can understand how some would feel that way, but for me, SQ is the name of the game. I don't want or need every bell and whistle that's available(my 3 yr old near flagship Onkyo AVR has features on it I've never used), I want proven technology that isn't bleeding edge. I want a unit that sounds better than my AVR, and with Sabre DACs, a better analog section, XLR's,etc, the forthcoming Outlaw should fit the bill. Trinnov would have been nice, but it just wasn't doable. If Audyssey XT32 isn't for you then you must be part of the 1%.
post #154 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

If Audyssey XT32 isn't for you then you must be part of the 1%.

If you hear what Trinnov does, you will be part of that 1% too
post #155 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

If you hear what Trinnov does, you will be part of that 1% too

I think i will join that 1% as well. I decided that audyssey xt32 pro isn't good enough for me. If there isn't any prepro that fits me somehiw i might get a anthem mrx 300 receiver as a temporary sulution. After uograding to seperates i can use the receivet for my current speakers and sell my current soundcard and amp.

Outlaw is currently trying to get 978 out but i am sure they will return to the 998 projekt once the 978 is out. I think 978 will hqve great value and be reliable once it's out. currently they are testing the unit.
post #156 of 186
But Trinnov couldn't be brought to market in neither the AVR nor the pre-pro category(under 2000), so the point is moot for most consumers. It was/is bleeding edge technology. I do not want some flakey unit that has issues no matter how good it sounds in the lab.
post #157 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

But Trinnov couldn't be brought to market in neither the AVR nor the pre-pro category(under 2000), so the point is moot for most consumers. It was/is bleeding edge technology. I do not want some flakey unit that has issues no matter how good it sounds in the lab.

Well, Sherwood did bring it to market for 1800 MSRP. Outlaw was going to sell the pre-pro with Trinnov for $1400 MSRP

The quirks were with the receiver and and not with Trinnov technology. I highly recommend that you get 972 from A4L and listen to it. You will forget your beloved xt32
It think Outlaw would be missing out if they do not implement Trinnov in 998.
post #158 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

The quirks were with the receiver and and not with Trinnov technology. I highly recommend that you get 972 from A4L and listen to it. You will forget your beloved xt32

I have no experience with Trinnov but I'm sure it is amazing. It doesn't matter if the quirks are with the 972 itself IMO. The quirks are there and diminish the overall experience of owning a component like the 972. The fact that there are audio dropouts when watching cable/SAT is the reason I did not buy the 972. I would rather have a quirk free AVR/prepro with XT32 than one with quirks and Trinnov. But thats just me.

Bill
post #159 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post


I have no experience with Trinnov but I'm sure it is amazing. It doesn't matter if the quirks are with the 972 itself IMO. The quirks are there and diminish the overall experience of owning a component like the 972. The fact that there are audio dropouts when watching cable/SAT is the reason I did not buy the 972. I would rather have a quirk free AVR/prepro with XT32 than one with quirks and Trinnov. But thats just me.

Bill

Heard trinnov for music. Didn't get enough time so can't comment on it but some folks who love audyssey in our ht group said trinnov was better for a single lp while audyssey did better for multiple lp
post #160 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

The quirks were with the receiver and and not with Trinnov technology.

I wouldn't say that; Trinnov can take a lot of work just to have it find your speakers, requiring fussing with speaker and mike positions and orientations.
post #161 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Heard trinnov for music. Didn't get enough time so can't comment on it but some folks who love audyssey in our ht group said trinnov was better for a single lp while audyssey did better for multiple lp

I replaced Audyssey XT receiver with the R-972 and, frankly, I'd never want to go back to Audyssey (at least XT) if I have a choice between the two.

Yes, Audyssey takes 8 measurements from different positions, but even so, in my setting Trinnov did a noticeably better job tightening things across the same seating area. Dialog and bass are much improved, and that's before engaging the 3D remapping.

The R-972 had some HDMI issues, but nothing that's a show-stopper, and nothing to do with Trinnov. Trinnov does take more complex measurements, so it does take a little more fiddling, but at least in my case it was nothing out of the ordinary and the end result was well worth the extra hour I spent, compared to setting up 8 positions with XT.

That's why I think Outlaw made a mistake of switching to XT32. They could have been the only affordable game in town with Trinnov Optimizer, which would have made the 998 a compelling buy.

But with XT32, it's just one box among others, and those others are likely to be both cheaper and have more features than the 998, by the time it comes out. I just don't see it being competitive at this point.
post #162 of 186
I definitely would like to see a xt32 vs trinnov show down
post #163 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I have no experience with Trinnov but I'm sure it is amazing. It doesn't matter if the quirks are with the 972 itself IMO. The quirks are there and diminish the overall experience of owning a component like the 972. The fact that there are audio dropouts when watching cable/SAT is the reason I did not buy the 972. I would rather have a quirk free AVR/prepro with XT32 than one with quirks and Trinnov. But thats just me.

Bill

I absolutely agree with you on 972 experience while watching TV. Since I hardly watch any live TV anymore, it was not a big concern for me.

I was just trying to answer the question that Trinnov equipped AVR cannot be brought to market below 2k MSRP and Trinnov technology is bleeding edge.

On the other hand, I have an xt32 equipped pre-pro which does not do the job it's supposed to do for EQ (per measurements and by ear) I might have to shell out additional $700 for pro version to make it sing, so buyers beware.
post #164 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

On the other hand, I have an xt32 equipped pre-pro which does not do the job it's supposed to do for EQ (per measurements and by ear) I might have to shell out additional $700 for pro version to make it sing, so buyers beware.

I'm sure some will have very positive results with Trinnov and XT32 and there will be those that have negative results as well. I have not read the R-972 or the Trinnov threads completely but I see much more positive feedback on XT32 than negative feedback. For me it is the total performance of an AVR/prepro that is important to me. If Audyssey XT32 worked excellent in say the Onkyo 3009 but the overall performance was lacking due to quirks (bugs) I would not buy one.

In other words if the room correction system is cutting edge but the component itself is not then it is not worth it IMO. I owned a Boston Acoustics AVP7 (Sherwood P-965 clone) that sounded excellent. But the operational bugs were brutal so I returned it after a couple of weeks.

Bill
post #165 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I'm sure some will have very positive results with Trinnov and XT32 and there will be those that have negative results as well. I have not read the R-972 or the Trinnov threads completely but I see much more positive feedback on XT32 than negative feedback. For me it is the total performance of an AVR/prepro that is important to me. If Audyssey XT32 worked excellent in say the Onkyo 3009 but the overall performance was lacking due to quirks (bugs) I would not buy one.

In other words if the room correction system is cutting edge but the component itself is not then it is not worth it IMO. I owned a Boston Acoustics AVP7 (Sherwood P-965 clone) that sounded excellent. But the operational bugs were brutal so I returned it after a couple of weeks.

Bill

Sherwood now offers the R-977, having retired the R-972. Outlaw's "warehouse moving sale" remind me of those "Going out of business" sales I would see in storefronts of New York City; you know "Last 7 Days!" "Everything Must Go!" And then a month later the signs have been taken down with business as usual. My guess is that the stock moved from one end of the warehouse to the other.

This whole Outlaw 978/998 scenario has been a gigantic fiasco. And we'll never know the real skinny but surely incompetence abounds on several levels. Some electronic devices have gone through 3 generation changes whilst Outlaw is..., who knows. It makes me leery of this product line regardless when and if it comes to market.

And Bill you quite correctly point out putting out buggy stuff doesn't cut it in the realm of consumer electronics. Perhaps this is a result of the nature of software driven devices nowadays; manufacturers have adopted the Q/A mindset of most software developers: software would be released with known bugs with the hope that the users will not be too inconvenienced and fix them with updates. (Mind you, I've never used early versions of marginally complex software that was bug-free.) Unless people in charge have the neurotic fastidiousness of a Steve Jobs, we'll have to suffer the indignation of buggy electronics or vapor-tronics, devices that never seem to come to market like the Outlaw 978/998.
post #166 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1000 View Post

Well, Sherwood did bring it to market for 1800 MSRP. Outlaw was going to sell the pre-pro with Trinnov for $1400 MSRP

Yes, and that's my point. How did the Sherwood sell? It went over like a lead balloon with consumer complaints galore. The Outlaw model didn't even make it to market. That's what I meant when I said Trinnov wasn't doable.
post #167 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Yes, and that's my point. How did the Sherwood sell? It went over like a lead balloon with consumer complaints galore. The Outlaw model didn't even make it to market. That's what I meant when I said Trinnov wasn't doable.

You keep saying this, but the point is that the issues with the R-972 were mainly HDMI-related, NOT Trinnov-related.

Note also that the 998 with XT32 hasn't made it to market, either.

So I am really not sure what your point is.
post #168 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Heard trinnov for music. Didn't get enough time so can't comment on it but some folks who love audyssey in our ht group said trinnov was better for a single lp while audyssey did better for multiple lp

That's because you stayed outside trying to push HTPC over Dune.

Just to be clear...Trinnov in the expensive ADA boxes can do multiple locations, and give each location priority over another...so the main listening position can have more weight in the correction than something off to the side.

Trinnov is not a simple system as some of us that have it can attest. It can have its difficulties, and it can be really easy....it all comes with the territory.
post #169 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Yes, and that's my point. How did the Sherwood sell? It went over like a lead balloon with consumer complaints galore. The Outlaw model didn't even make it to market. That's what I meant when I said Trinnov wasn't doable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

You keep saying this, but the point is that the issues with the R-972 were mainly HDMI-related, NOT Trinnov-related.

Note also that the 998 with XT32 hasn't made it to market, either.

So I am really not sure what your point is.

Correct, most of the bugs were HDMI and CODEC syncing issues. Trinnov itself was in good shape...a stripped down version of the software used in $15K professional units.

Sherwood had a lot of problems with getting good firmware from TI from what I understand, and it takes a fair amount of horsepower to run the code. All the non-Trinnov related problems left a bad taste with Trinnov, so they are cautious about playing in that segment of the consumer market. We also have to remember that this unit was launched 4 years ago...there were not many bug free HDMI implementations, and the new CODECs caused their share of problems too.

I really enjoy the R972...even with its quirks/issues. That said, it is not something I would openly recommend to someone unless they understood the issues.
post #170 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post

You keep saying this, but the point is that the issues with the R-972 were mainly HDMI-related, NOT Trinnov-related.

Note also that the 998 with XT32 hasn't made it to market, either.

So I am really not sure what your point is.

Well Noah asserts that Trinnov had trouble doing simple things like finding his speakers, I don't think that's HDMI related. Further, even if much of the issues were HDMi related, if it has issues it won't sell, it doesn't matter who or what's to blame, it still won't work properly. That means it's not ready for prime time...

It might be down the road but at this point Audyssey is a solid approach that can operate within a mid range AVR, the Onkyo 818(?). IMO Trinnov should have picked a better company than Sherwood.
post #171 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Well Noah asserts that Trinnov had trouble doing simple things like finding his speakers, I don't think that's HDMI related. Further, even if much of the issues were HDMi related, if it has issues it won't sell, it doesn't matter who or what's to blame, it still won't work properly. That means it's not ready for prime time...

It might be down the road but at this point Audyssey is a solid approach that can operate within a mid range AVR, the Onkyo 818(?). IMO Trinnov should have picked a better company than Sherwood.

People also have had trouble getting good results/measurements with Audessey.
post #172 of 186
So why is Audyysey in millions of AVRS while Trinnov is in 57?
post #173 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

So why is Audyysey in millions of AVRS while Trinnov is in 57?

Because it is a much more complicated and costly system to implement.

You do realize that Trinnov is available in the high end market, right? Is Audessey? Audessey is only in the entry and mid level markets.
http://www.ada.net/products/ht/teq_trinnov.php

I have not read the whole thread, so I am not sure how this all got started. Trinnov vs Audessey....imo, not really comparable. Trinnov does something that Audessey does not do, and it takes more to implement. Is it worth it? It does not seem like it to mid-market companies....right now.
post #174 of 186
Plus hasn't audyssey but out longer?
I was considering getting a 972 at its current price for a music set up
post #175 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Trinnov does something that Audessey does not do, and it takes more to implement. Is it worth it? It does not seem like it to mid-market companies.

Curtis,

From what I have read Audyssey does some things that Trinnov does not do. Specifically the ability to change crossover settings (raise) and take measurements to get better room correction over multiple seating. If I'm wrong about this please correct me. Either way both Trinnov and Audyssey have their positives and negatives. It would be interesting to see a controlled (if at all possible) comparison between Trinnov, Audyssey and ARC.

Bill
post #176 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Plus hasn't audyssey but out longer?
I was considering getting a 972 at its current price for a music set up

Looks like Trinnov has been around since 2000.

http://www.trinnov.com/about-us/comp...ry/?lang=en_us
post #177 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Curtis,

From what I have read Audyssey does some things that Trinnov does not do. Specifically the ability to change crossover settings (raise) and take measurements to get better room correction over multiple seating. If I'm wrong about this please correct me. Either way both Trinnov and Audyssey have their positives and negatives. It would be interesting to see a controlled (if at all possible) comparison between Trinnov, Audyssey and ARC.

Bill

Trinnov can do all of that as well, and more...just not how it was implemented in the R972.

Remember, the R972 is 4 years old. What did Audessey have 4 years ago and implemented in an AVR?
post #178 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Trinnov can do all of that as well, and more...just not how it was implemented in the R972.

Remember, the R972 is 4 years old. What did Audessey have 4 years ago and implemented in an AVR?

I was referring to the Trinnov application in the 972 not in megabuck processors. The 972 came out in 2008? Audyssey had MultEQ XT with pro capabilities in some AVR/prepros four years ago. I'm not trying to say Audyssey is better than Trinnov. Just that both have their positives and negatives. By that I mean at the the sub $2500 AVR/prepro price range.

Bill
post #179 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I was referring to the Trinnov application in the 972 not in megabuck processors. The 972 came out in 2008? Audyssey had MultEQ XT with pro capabilities in some AVR/prepros four years ago. I'm not trying to say Audyssey is better than Trinnov. Just that both have their positives and negatives. By that I mean at the the sub $2500 AVR/prepro price range.

2008? OK...my memory is bad.

I see what you are saying.

I would rather compare technologies. Point being that if you are comparing technologies, then you need to compare technologies. If you want to compare receivers, then compare receivers.

If you want to compare the R972 to a current receiver, as far as functionality goes outside of Trinnov....it is WAY behind. People buying an R972 now are not doing so for its feature set...they are doing it for Trinnov.

I think the discussion is moot anyways since there is not a newer mid-market receiver/pre-pro with Trinnov.
post #180 of 186
Any chance Trinnov will make it to a midend avr/prepro?
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