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How to create 3D frame sequential video? - Page 2

post #31 of 124
I am still coonfused. Is frame sequential and field sequential different?
I have the Optoma HD66 which is FRAME Sequential ... is there any movies in this format? I have dlp link glasses arriving shortly and would like to try them out before my 3D-XL is released. And no i do not want to use a PC, I want to use my existing WDTV Live

i googled but can't see any Frame Sequentiasl movies
I saw a bunch of Field Sequential like Friday the thirteenth and spy kids 3
post #32 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickMcKaha View Post

Those of you with Optoma HD66 or similar DLP Link projectors - Have you created your own 3D videos using twin camcorders? I'd like instruction on that final step: How to create or render a 120 Hz field sequential video from two separate 60 Hz (or 30 Hz even) camcorder sources.

I hoped Sony Vegas would do it, but I don't see that choice in it's menus. I've read Frank's cool thread on making home 3D video in side-by-side format, but DLP Link wants field sequential. So, anyone know how to render 120 Hz field sequential video?

Greetings TrickMcKaha.

This is a short 1920x1080/120p clip made from Panasonic 1920x1080/60p video. Does it play on your system?

Name: 700_2D3D_interleave.mkv
Size: 105.14MB
Description: 1920x1080/60p 2D to 3D Interleave
http://www.sendspace.com/file/pxhas6
post #33 of 124
Frame sequential is full resolution alternating left and right every frame.
Field sequential is interlaced half vertical resolution, one eye goes into the odd field and the other eye goes to the even field. Each frame contains both eye views since it contains both fields.
Line by line looks similar to field sequential, but the difference is that the frames are defined as a progressive picture. Since there are no fields in a progressive picture, the terms odd/even fields are replaced with odd/even lines.

One remark about storing a frame sequential video.
I also originally thought MPEG encoders would not like frame sequential video because of the huge jerkiness of such a video, however when x264 developers tested it, they found out that their H264 encoder actually liked it and performed better than using separate files.
With a few tweaks and with the right parameters, they managed to get compression performance very close to what MVC does.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...26#post1465726

Stereoscopic player supports frame sequential 3D files, once these guys implement proper tagging and frame identification, frame sequential might become the best storage format available (until free standardized MVC codecs become widely available).
post #34 of 124
Frame Sequential solves a lot of problems and I think it is definitely the way to go. Since the PS3 can handle them out of the box, I think it becomes a no-brainer for those with a PS3.

Even though I don't have a 3D display yet, I have played some Frame Sequential stuff on my PS3 and it plays back as normal 2D! This means 2D compatibility is built in which is also nice (try that with SBS). I have verified the Frame Sequential stuff I played has interpolated frames on my computer display.

Mike
post #35 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectdark View Post

I am still coonfused. Is frame sequential and field sequential different?
I have the Optoma HD66 which is FRAME Sequential ... is there any movies in this format? I have dlp link glasses arriving shortly and would like to try them out before my 3D-XL is released. And no i do not want to use a PC, I want to use my existing WDTV Live

i googled but can't see any Frame Sequentiasl movies
I saw a bunch of Field Sequential like Friday the thirteenth and spy kids 3

There is none.
Frame sequential is only used for transfer of left and right images from PC to 120 Hz display.

There are proprietary 60Hz frame sequential video formats
with embedded frame indexing.

Such format can be played using DLP and CRT display devices with 30 Hz per eye frame rate.
Some people do not tolerate any amount of flicker so it has limited audience.

If your WDTV Live can output 60p formats then you can use e-dimensional like dongle with LCS glasses with your DLP- Link projector. But you will not be able to use DLP-Link and glasses at all as it will only turn on if input signal is 120Hz.

Mathew Orman
post #36 of 124
Frame sequential AFAIK means the same as page flipping. The HD66 will accept frame sequential/page flipping 720p content at 120Hz and AFAIK both Nvidia 3D play and Iz3D using a current generation ATI card can both provide that capability.
post #37 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

There is none.
Frame sequential is only used for transfer of left and right images from PC to 120 Hz display.

There are proprietary 60Hz frame sequential video formats
with embedded frame indexing.

So you are saying 1080p24 can't be encoded and played back using this method? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Can't I encode two 23.976 FPS streams together to get one 47.952 stream and play that on my PS3? I'm sure gonna try.

Mike
post #38 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post

So you are saying 1080p24 can't be encoded and played back using this method? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Can't I encode two 23.976 FPS streams together to get one 47.952 stream and play that on my PS3? I'm sure gonna try.

Mike

No,
you can encode it but it will not be optimal for playback
or regular video hardware.

The main problem is synchronizing LCS glasses.
There is a proprietary method using either Blu-line sync or corner black/white rectangle and you need the proprietary hardware with glasses.

Mathew Orman
post #39 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Frame sequential AFAIK means the same as page flipping.

The two are often used as synonyms but they actually refer to different things :
frame sequential is the actual output : the picture format that goes through the video cable
Pageflipping is the name of the algorithm that was used in the graphics cards when they output frame sequential, nowadays it's called the stereo-quadbuffer but the term pageflipping is still often used instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post

So you are saying 1080p24 can't be encoded and played back using this method? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Can't I encode two 23.976 FPS streams together to get one 47.952 stream and play that on my PS3? I'm sure gonna try.

Mike

You can encode frame sequential and is apparently quite efficient, but the problem is playback. Frame sequential alone is just a series of pictures, neither the software or the display can tell the difference between frame sequential stereo 24fps and a 2D 48fps video.
This is why you need additional systems to identify the left and right frames so that you get the correct eye view, you also need to identify picture pairs so that you can increase the refresh rate from 24fps footage to 96Hz,120Hz, 144Hz or more properly.

The PS3 frame sequential videos are not raw frame sequential, they use a proprietary marking system implemented by Sony for this purpose. I do not know any software that can produce it.
post #40 of 124
[quote=BlackShark;19767596]The two are often used as synonyms but they actually refer to different things :
frame sequential is the actual output : the picture format that goes through the video cable
Pageflipping is the name of the algorithm that was used in the graphics cards when they output frame sequential, nowadays it's called the stereo-quadbuffer but the term pageflipping is still often used instead.
QUOTE]

Very interesting, no wonder many of us get confused, I had not idea Stereo Quadbuffer ment the same as Page Flipping. Too bad none of the groups such as the the US Consumer Electroics Association publish any documentation or terminology standards.
post #41 of 124
It's probably because the pageflipping, quad buffer and frame sequential stuff isn't supposed to be used by consumers. It's more a programmer and display manufacturer matter.

For consumer it should be as plug-and-play and transparent as possible, something like, plug two 3D certified devices together, and then the rest happens without you having to worry about it.
I think that's what Hdmi 1.4 is supposed to do.
post #42 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

The PS3 frame sequential videos are not raw frame sequential, they use a proprietary marking system implemented by Sony for this purpose. I do not know any software that can produce it.

Well crap. That is going to kill it for me then.

I have an example file, we should be able to figure out how the flag is implemented and then create software to set the flag right? I guess this is my new quest.

Mike
post #43 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
Well crap. That is going to kill it for me then.

I have an example file, we should be able to figure out how the flag is implemented and then create software to set the flag right? I guess this is my new quest.

Mike
No problem it is not proprietary.
Here is the tool to convert any video to PS3 HD format:

http://www.winxdvd.com/hd-video-converter/

You can download the trial version.

Mathew Orman
post #44 of 124
Can you upload that example file somewhere, I don't have a PS3 and I'd like to have a look at it too.
post #45 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post
Can you upload that example file somewhere, I don't have a PS3 and I'd like to have a look at it too.
There is a short discussion and download link here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1271809

Mike
post #46 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post
No problem it is not proprietary.
Here is the tool to convert any video to PS3 HD format:

http://www.winxdvd.com/hd-video-converter/

You can download the trial version.

Mathew Orman
I think all this does is convert video to H264 supported by the PS3. I don't think it will allow me to set a PS3 Frame Sequential flag in an H264 stream.

Mike
post #47 of 124
I have to point out this important confusion:

3D encoding formats and display decoding technics:



3D Encoding Formats:

Full 3D BD encoding format: frame packed; two 1920*1080 p frames encooded to 1080+45+1080=2055 so the final pack will be 1920*2055. (Over/Under)

You can encode it via h264 encoder and put it into an mkv container (as 1920*2055) or encode it with an MVC encoder and put it into an m2ts container (1920*1080*2)

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=158457

Or you may want to put both left and right frames compressing to the half resolution (as horizontal or vertical) into one 1920*1080 frame.

horizontal compressing: Side by side 1920*1080 is consist of 960*1080 +960*1080

vertical compressing: Over/Under 1920*1080 is consist of 1920*540+1920*540


Displaying (decoding) of encoded 3D content:

Frame Sequential (alternate frame) display decoding:

Most of the latest generation 3D plasma and LCD TVs are capable of displaying 3D video with seperate left and right eye pictures in an alternating sequence

Checkerboard (DLP) display decoding:

DLP TVs and 3D ready DLP PJs use this decoding technic.

Finally if you send frame packed 3D video to a frame sequential TV, it will decode it to frame sequential format (lossless). If you send the same 3D to your DLP display it will convert it to checkerboard format and will decode as frame sequential format. (lossy) -in some cases you may need a converter box like PS3 to DLP case.


_ _ _ _ _ _
post #48 of 124
Yes but you can also put encoded Frame Sequential H264 into an MKV or M2TS container and not use frame packing at all which is what I was interested in. The benefit of this is it decreases file size and increases image quality: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...47#post1468847

If most modern 3D displays understand Frame Sequential 3D then maybe I shouldn't care if my PS3 decodes it or not.

Mike
post #49 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post
Yes but you can also put encoded Frame Sequential H264 into an MKV or M2TS container and not use frame packing at all which is what I was interested in. The benefit of this is it decreases file size and increases image quality: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...47#post1468847

If most modern 3D displays understand Frame Sequential 3D then maybe I shouldn't care if my PS3 decodes it or not.

Mike
Sorry but i don't understand what you mean with "frame sequential encoding" here?

Do you mean checkerboard encoding?

If so you will again loose the half quality...
_ _ _ _
post #50 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post
Sorry but i don't understand what you mean with "frame sequential encoding" here?

Do you mean checkerboard encoding?

If so you will again loose the half quality...
_ _ _ _
You can actually encode H264 video with interleaved full resolution 1080x1920 frames L, R, L, R, L, R and so on. This can be done in x264. Check out the link I provided. The last couple of pages discuss this.

Mike
post #51 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post
3D Encoding Formats:

Full 3D BD encoding format: frame packed; two 1920*1080 p frames encooded to 1080+45+1080=2055 so the final pack will be 1920*2055. (Over/Under)
The total is 2205 pixels high, but you are describing Hdmi frame packing transmission format here, it has no purpose outside the hdmi cable and although it could be used, it is not suitable for storing video.
The BluRay 3D main format is MVC which is two separate 1920x1080p frames which the player exports to the display into whatever format it wants.
post #52 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post

You can actually encode H264 video with interleaved full resolution 1080x1920 frames L, R, L, R, L, R and so on. This can be done in x264. Check out the link I provided. The last couple of pages discuss this.

Mike

This is an interlaced compressed encoding like side by side or over/under.
Again you will loose the half of the resolution. The picture for each eye has full horizontal resolution, but half of the normal vertical resolution. (1920*540 in a 1080 p frame)
post #53 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

The total is 2205 pixels high, but you are describing Hdmi frame packing transmission format here, it has no purpose outside the hdmi cable and although it could be used, it is not suitable for storing video.
The BluRay 3D main format is MVC which is two separate 1920x1080p frames which the player exports to the display into whatever format it wants.

If you read my post carefully i showed the difference between h264 and MVC encoding and i always encode 3D to side by side for this reason.
post #54 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post

If you read my post carefully i showed the difference between h264 and MVC encoding and i always encode 3D to side by side for this reason.

Are you saying that all of your recordings are in HDMI 1.4a 1080i SbS 3d format?
post #55 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post

If you read my post carefully i showed the difference between h264 and MVC encoding and i always encode 3D to side by side for this reason.

There is no h264 encoding.
h264 if the file extension name and the actual encoding is AVC or MVC.

I agree with you that MVC stereoscopic encoding method is worse than side by side.

Mathew Orman
post #56 of 124
As I uderstand the following link both the 2D and the Delta files in the MVC format are encoded in H.264 format just the same as the 2D bluray disksare encoded in H.264 format.
If you think that they are not compressed and encoded in H.264 format are you saying that they are in compressd and encoded in MPEG2 format instead?

http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/
post #57 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post

This is an interlaced compressed encoding like side by side or over/under.
Again you will loose the half of the resolution. The picture for each eye has full horizontal resolution, but half of the normal vertical resolution. (1920*540 in a 1080 p frame)

No you get it wrong.
We're talking about encoding full resolution progressive frames, and having the left and right frames interleaved one after the other. It's similar to how 120Hz 3DTVs with shutter glasses work, except it's done at the video encoding stage, not the display stage, and that the framerate does not need to match the display refresh rate, it's just for storing the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

There is no h264 encoding.
h264 if the file extension name and the actual encoding is AVC or MVC.

I agree with you that MVC stereoscopic encoding method is worse than side by side.

Mathew Orman

Actually, H264 and AVC are both the name of the standard.
H.264 is the ITU name
AVC is the ISO name

If you've got a .h264 file then what you have is a raw video elementary stream, it has no real extension, some people use .264 .h264 .x264 .avc and some use none.

MVC is AVC with special frame hierarchy between the left and right eye views.
MVC provides the same compression efficiency as frame sequential + tagging but with the advantage that the stream is backwards compatible with any standard 2D AVC decoder.
post #58 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Are you saying that all of your recordings are in HDMI 1.4a 1080i SbS 3d format?

No i just said i re-encode them to AVC as 960*1080 +960*1080=1920*1080 (Side by Side)
post #59 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

There is no h264 encoding.
h264 if the file extension name and the actual encoding is AVC or MVC.

I agree with you that MVC stereoscopic encoding method is worse than side by side.

Mathew Orman


Sorry, i should have used "AVC" term, you're right.

But i didn't say MVC is worse than side by side. (i'm looking for a free MVC encoder on doom9 forum as you know.)
post #60 of 124
For anyone else that may be interested, I have just learned that the PS3 Sequential Frame format in the above linked video uses the same standard frame packing SEI (45) as x264 does. The only difference is the PS3 stream has the SEI before every frame (with current_frame_is_frame0 flag set for every other frame) while x264 only inserts the message once for each GOP.

So I will be testing this out (hopefully tonight) to see if the PS3 likes the video encoded with x264. If it does, we should have a workable solution (at least for the PS3). If it doesn't work, we should ask the x264 devs to add support for this PS3 Frame Sequential flag. There are enough PS3s out there that it would be valuable to the community if they could do this.

Mike
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