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How to create 3D frame sequential video? - Page 3

post #61 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post

Sorry, i should have used "AVC" term, you're right.

But i didn't say MVC is worse than side by side. (i'm looking for a free MVC encoder on doom9 forum as you know.)


Here is the free (courtesy of German tax payer) MVC encoder with "Stereo High" Profile.

http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/

Sony and Panasonic used it to create their 3D Blu-ray authoring applications.

Mathew Orman
post #62 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Here is the free (courtesy of German tax payer) MVC encoder with "Stereo High" Profile.

http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/

Sony and Panasonic used it to create their 3D Blu-ray authoring applications.

Mathew Orman

This should be very interesting.

Mike
post #63 of 124
Just an update on the x264 Frame Sequential testing with the PS3.

I have compiled a beta version of x264 that includes some enhancements for Frame Sequential 3D video as well as a custom hack to flag each frame with the appropriate flag. So far, the PS3 has not recognized any of my test videos as Frame Sequential. I continue to look into this issue and am hoping with the help of a few people more experienced than I, we will have a workable solution soon.

I'll try to keep this thread updated with any progress I make.

Mike
post #64 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Here is the free (courtesy of German tax payer) MVC encoder with "Stereo High" Profile.

http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/

Sony and Panasonic used it to create their 3D Blu-ray authoring applications.

Mathew Orman

Hi Mathew,
i'm not a coder and it's useless to me in this form.
Thanks btw.
post #65 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post

Hi Mathew,
i'm not a coder and it's useless to me in this form.
Thanks btw.

Try regular Blu-ray authoring for 3D content.
Such 3D BDs play 3d in both 2D and 3D Blu-ray players.
I use Adobe CS5 Premiere and Encore. You can get quality output in 3D that outperforms regular 3D BDs.

Mathew Orman
post #66 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Try regular Blu-ray authoring for 3D content.
Such 3D BDs play 3d in both 2D and 3D Blu-ray players.
I use Adobe CS5 Premiere and Encore. You can get quality output in 3D that outperforms regular 3D BDs.

Mathew Orman

Are you saying CS5 Encore can encode an MVC 3D Blu-ray? I was not aware it could do that. I'll have to dig around for a tutorial.

Mike
post #67 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post

Are you saying CS5 Encore can encode an MVC 3D Blu-ray? I was not aware it could do that. I'll have to dig around for a tutorial.

Mike

No, I use broadcast 3D frame compatible format which is anamorphic side by side at 30Hz progressive.

Mathew Orman
post #68 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Try regular Blu-ray authoring for 3D content.
Such 3D BDs play 3d in both 2D and 3D Blu-ray players.
I use Adobe CS5 Premiere and Encore. You can get quality output in 3D that outperforms regular 3D BDs.

Mathew Orman

Sorry but i used to use Premiere2 and Encore2 but i always found myself using intermediate formats (like Cineform) and frame servers.

Here are the options without MVC encoder (for the time being):

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=295

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=300


_ _ _ _ _ _
post #69 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricabullah View Post

Sorry but i used to use Premiere2 and Encore2 but i always found myself using intermediate formats (like Cineform) or frame servers.

Here are the options without MVC encoder (for the time being):

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=295

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=300


_ _ _ _ _ _

Blu-ray player will not play those formats.
Frame compatible is the only alternative to 3D BD 2D+Delta format.

Mathew Orman
post #70 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Blu-ray player will not play those formats.
Frame compatible is the only alternative to 3D BD 2D+Delta format.

Mathew Orman

Sorry, forgotten you guys don't use HTPCs, it's my bad.
post #71 of 124
anyone figure this out for the ps3 to playback properly
post #72 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

anyone figure this out for the ps3 to playback properly

Not yet. I am still interested but I just haven't had the time to invest in it.

Mike
post #73 of 124
I have heard but have not tried it yet. Some people have been able to get Full Side by Side working on the ps3 through ps3 media server. I don't know what it does to the quality.
post #74 of 124
If anyone has Frame Sequential working on the PS3, I would love to hear about it.

Mike
post #75 of 124
possibly you should try the free Nokia MVC encoder.
They provide only the C++ source code, so you have to complile it first.
then the utility is a command line and the input files must be RAW YUV 4:2:0.
It is not so easy to find an apps able to export RAW YUV, but some are able to do this (YUVTools, ffmpeg and avisynth).

I have not tested it yet , but you should be able to burn this with any BD authoring system and get a 3D TV HDMI 1.4 compatible blu-ray.
post #76 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPines View Post

If anyone has Frame Sequential working on the PS3, I would love to hear about it.

Mike

Mike, I read your posts with a lot of interest.
Did you understand more about this special PS3 video file format?

In my case, I have got a PS3 with with a compatible 3D display and that file is the only 3D video content I can see (in 3D and without an expensive 3D TV that decodes lots of formats, on top of the HDMI 1.4).
Many people with PS3 would love to be able to play a 3D HD MP4 1280x720 file from the USB disk.

Is there a sw or a way to produce/convert/understand that file format?

Why so little interest for it?
the PS3 is very common and, thanks to the VIP Gamer gadget and the Optoma 3D-XL, lots of old, cheap HD projectors can be used to see 3D videos with the PS3.

Pls Mike, keep me updated in case you discover more on that PS3 file format.
Cheers
post #77 of 124
would love to find this out as well. Only thing I wish is that I could also play the lossless sound in XMB
post #78 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavi View Post

Mike, I read your posts with a lot of interest.
Did you understand more about this special PS3 video file format?

In my case, I have got a PS3 with with a compatible 3D display and that file is the only 3D video content I can see.

Is there a sw or a way to produce/convert/understand that file format?

Why so little interest for it?
the PS3 is very common and, thanks to the VIP Gamer gadget and the Optoma one, lots of old, cheap HD projectors can be used to see 3D videos with the PS3.

Pls Mike, keep me updated in case you discover more on that PS3 file format.
Cheers
Andrea

If you can copy it and make a link to the sample I will be able to tell you what it is and how to make such files.

Mathew Orman
post #79 of 124
post #80 of 124
Quote: "I will be able to tell you what it is and how to make such files." Mathew Orman

Great Mathew!
yes, the file I tested is the same one for which space2001 posted the link:
E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4


It might not be relevant but I wish to explain what happens to my setup when I play this file.
My setup is relatively inexpensive:
- PS3 (version 3.55)
- VIP Gamer
- old HDMI 1.3 projector (HD, 120hz, but the Gamer supports slower ones too)

Ignoring 3D games (which work great) and ignoring the 3D blu-ray, when I put 3D files on a USB drive, the PS3 either does not play them or plays them in 2D.
But when I put the file above in a USB drive, the Video Player that is in XMB (main menu) of the PS3 recognises it as being in 3D.
If you do not have a 3D display, the PS3 plays the video correctly in 2D (left eye only) (but other players, such as VLC, do not see that the file is in 3D and show both the left and right eye frames in succession).

If the PS3 sees that you have got a HDMI 1.4 display, the PS3 shows the video in HDMI 1.4, in 3D.
In my setup, the VIP Gamer sees the HDMI 1.4 coming from the PS3, turns the projector to 3D and sends on-the-fly the 3D content in a 3D format compatible with the old projector.

Maybe not relevant but interesting: the Gamer is tiny, smaller than a XXS Freecom disk (while the Optoma 3D-XL is bigger). When I play 3D games, I notice no lag. The gadget turns the old projector to 3D and to 2D automatically, when needed.

Also, the file plays in 1280x720 resolution per each eye.

The Gamer always sends the image for the left eye first to the projector, however, very occasionally, the projector misses a beat. In those rare cases, I tell the projector to invert. My understanding is that all DLP projectors have got this option in the menu.
Playing games, it never happened so far that the projectors misses a beat but when playing this file many times, in slow motion, back and forth, etc., occasionally it happened (I mean not each time I played the file but only rarely).

Mathew, I am very much looking forward to hearing news on this file format!
Also, if you hear about a sw that can write this format, please let us know.
post #81 of 124
These file are frame sequential.
According to the folks at doom9, they have specific tags on each frame to tell whether it's left or right. The PS3 finds these tags and understands it's a 3D video.

There is no known tool to make such files.
A recent patch of x264 can create such tags when encoding an H264/Mpeg4-AVC video but they aren't made exactly like Sony implemented them so it does not work on the PS3.
You'd probably need one of Sony's professional 3D tools to produce such a file, until someone patches x264 to match Sony's implementation.
post #82 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

You'd probably need one of Sony's professional 3D tools to produce such a file, until someone patches x264 to match Sony's implementation.

Thanks. So that is where we are...
Does anyone know which professional tool can create that file?

Who is capable of making the changes to the tools (codec/scripts) ? How can we reach the devs and motivate them ?

Maybe explaining that now the PS3 stereo 3D setup is really cool and inexpensive:
an old PS3, a VIP Gamer, an old projector bought on auction, a wall. Very inexpensive setup and an investment that should last a bit, given that it rests on standards such as HDMI 1.4 to show content and USB drive to save content.
In my case, the projector is short through
- so the stereo 3D HD image takes the whole wall and
- the projector is between the players and the wall, so that people can play with the Move motion controller (a plus over the PC and very precise, not like the wii).
There is zero cross talk, no rainbow, bright image.
The whole thing can be moved to a friend's home and mounted easily and in moments (the projector simply sits on a chair near the wall).
At version 3.55, the PS3 is a great tool, hundreds of games. Stereo 3D games are now coming every month. They have got almost no distracting artifacts and you do not need to wait for drivers to be updated with game profiles.
The quality of the PS3 games got better over the years and is now high.
and, apart from games, also the ability to play HD stereo 3D videos from USB...


But if they prefer not to adopt it, you have been in the 3D world for a long time:
How can we contact them?
How can we convince them to create the upgrade?
post #83 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavi View Post

Quote: "I will be able to tell you what it is and how to make such files." Mathew Orman

Great Mathew!
yes, the file I tested is the same one for which space2001 posted the link:
E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4


It might not be relevant but I wish to explain what happens to my setup when I play this file.
My setup is relatively inexpensive:
- PS3 (version 3.55)
- VIP Gamer
- old HDMI 1.3 projector (HD, 120hz, but the Gamer supports slower ones too)

Ignoring 3D games (which work great) and ignoring the 3D blu-ray, when I put 3D files on a USB drive, the PS3 either does not play them or plays them in 2D.
But when I put the file above in a USB drive, the Video Player that is in XMB (main menu) of the PS3 recognises it as being in 3D.
If you do not have a 3D display, the PS3 plays the video correctly in 2D (left eye only) (but other players, such as VLC, do not see that the file is in 3D and show both the left and right eye frames in succession).

If the PS3 sees that you have got a HDMI 1.4 display, the PS3 shows the video in HDMI 1.4, in 3D.
In my setup, the VIP Gamer sees the HDMI 1.4 coming from the PS3, turns the projector to 3D and sends on-the-fly the 3D content in a 3D format compatible with the old projector.

Maybe not relevant but interesting: the Gamer is tiny, smaller than a XXS Freecom disk (while the Optoma 3D-XL is bigger). When I play 3D games, I notice no lag. The gadget turns the old projector to 3D and to 2D automatically, when needed.

Also, the file plays in 1280x720 resolution per each eye.

The Gamer always sends the image for the left eye first to the projector, however, very occasionally, the projector misses a beat. In those rare cases, I tell the projector to invert. My understanding is that all DLP projectors have got this option in the menu.
Playing games, it never happened so far that the projectors misses a beat but when playing this file many times, in slow motion, back and forth, etc., occasionally it happened (I mean not each time I played the file but only rarely).

Mathew, I am very much looking forward to hearing from you on this file format!
Also, if you hear about a sw that can write this format, please let us know.

It is simple 60 Hz frame sequential video which can be created using Adobe Premiere CS5 or some free command line tolls like AVIsynth.

I have created such video at 720p resolution using side by side video as an input.

I am uploading it to my rapishare account and will post a link shortly.

Mathew Orman
post #84 of 124
post #85 of 124
Mathew,

thanks.
Very well done. The outcome of the test is surprising.

This video performs in the following way:
(1) on VLC, it does play just like the Sony one: VLC plays the left and right images in succession as if it were a 2D video (so it does not look pretty).
(2) on the PS3, there is a some success:
(2.1) the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video in which the left and right eye images follow each other.
How did you achieve that precisely?
So the PS3 understands that the video is 3D because it plays only the left eye (in 2D)
So the video does not look like a mess, as in VLC, but it looks good for a 2D video.
(2.2) at the same time, however, the PS3 refuses to play it in HDMI 1.4: maybe it recognizes that it is not yet equal to the PS3 format.
In other words, the PS3 plays your video in the same way of the Sony video when I do not connect the 3D display (the PS3 knows that the 3D display is connected: I played the Sony file in stereo 3D immediately after to make sure)


This is very interesting.
how comes that the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video, it understands the format of the video (where the left and right images are) and it still refuses to play in 3D...


PS:
After seeing the results on Matthew video, I tried also the following in Avidemux 2.5:
Opening the Sony file and saving it without re-coding the streams.
This file gives the same results as Matthews' one on VLC and PS3.
I was thinking that maybe Matthew's file was OK in the container but missed something in the stream while the Avidemux file missed something in the container but had the streams OK. Again, I was surprised to see them behaving the same: the PS3 played the left eye, not like VLC which could not notice the difference with a 2D file.
post #86 of 124
Since the PS3 does not allow 3D playback, I'd say it does not recognize the file as 3D and bet more on a decoding bug on the PS3 side.

My guess would be that the PS3 video decoder is not designed to play 60fps 2D video, Sony would have added 60fps playback only for these frame sequential 3D videos, but since your file misses Sony's left/right frame metadata, the console does not know which frame is left and which one is right.
In order to avoid playing reversed stereo, the PS3 would have been programmed to only show 2D until it is 100% sure of the frame order. (it does not just pick one randomly and let the user correct it if it's wrong like DLP-link projectors)

If this is the case, then the explanation with AVIDemux would be that although AVIDemux did not modify the streams, it probably does not keep these special tags Sony used, so the file becomes broken.
post #87 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavi View Post

Mathew,

thanks.
Very well done. The outcome of the test is surprising.

This video performs in the following way:
(1) on VLC, it does play just like the Sony one: VLC plays the left and right images in succession as if it were a 2D video (so it does not look pretty).
(2) on the PS3, there is a some success:
(2.1) the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video in which the left and right eye images follow each other.
How did you achieve that precisely?
So the PS3 understands that the video is 3D because it plays only the left eye (in 2D)
So the video does not look like a mess, as in VLC, but it looks good for a 2D video.
(2.2) at the same time, however, the PS3 refuses to play it in HDMI 1.4: maybe it recognizes that it is not yet equal to the PS3 format.
In other words, the PS3 plays your video in the same way of the Sony video when I do not connect the 3D display (the PS3 knows that the 3D display is connected: I played the Sony file in stereo 3D immediately after to make sure)


This is very interesting.
how comes that the PS3 understands that it is a 3D video, it understands the format of the video (where the left and right images are) and it still refuses to play in 3D...


PS:
After seeing the results on Matthew video, I tried also the following in Avidemux 2.5:
Opening the Sony file and saving it without re-coding the streams.
This file gives the same results as Matthews' one on VLC and PS3.
I was thinking that maybe Matthew's file was OK in the container but missed something in the stream while the Avidemux file missed something in the container but had the streams OK. Again, I was surprised to see them behaving the same: the PS3 played the left eye, not like VLC which could not notice the difference with a 2D file.

Thank you I will now check the meta-data and headers to find out the difference and let you know.

Mathew Orman
post #88 of 124
Try this new Japanese version:

http://icesterf.webd.pl/samples/jap.mp4

The only difference I've noticed was the language tag.
I found no meta-data in the original file.

You can also try changing the name of my jap.mp4 sample to
E320103DSizzle_Trailer-3D720.MP4

Since as you can see the name contain some code with two characters as "3D".

Mathew Orman
post #89 of 124
Thanks BlackShark for the idea.

Still, even though Sony might not be happy of the risk of backups, it sells 3D camcorders. And also many other companies sell 3D camcorders.

I tend to think that the PS3 video player in the PS3 is designed to play at least one type of 3D videos (for the purpose of playing backups of files created by consumers with their camcorders).
And indeed it can play the E3 3D trailer in stereo 3D.
post #90 of 124
Mathew, thanks.

Maybe, one of the possible tests, is to try to decompose and recompose the Sony video and look for differences towards the original Sony file. Just an idea.

I think that it is really difficult to find those differences....
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