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Funky Waves Audio - Official Thread (Prebuilt and Custom Subs) - Page 11

post #301 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky Waves View Post

This is always true when comparing measurements taken by different people at different times, places and with different equipment. I do feel our numbers are accurate as are Josh's but one must always remember there very well may be some differences, but the comparisons should at least get you in the "ballpark". FYI we are working on getting some tests done by audioholics/Josh as soon as possible.

Hi Nate,

thanks for the Ground Plane measurements. These look good when compared to Illka's and Data-Bass numbers. As you have pointed out such comparisons are always tricky. 2m ground plane should be very similar, but the measurement routine and equipment differs.

I sincerely hope you also did include your 18.0 and/or 18.3 platforms using either TC Sounds 5400 or 5100 Pro driver in your extensive testing. These would be the perfect point of reference and should make the results comparable and meaningful. Could you please provide these numbers as benchmark?
post #302 of 703
Just a follow up on integrating my three subs (FA 18.0, FA 15.0 x2, Velodyne HGS-15). Some of the dropouts I saw in the combined frequency response improved after increasing the gain on the Velo. Doesn't seem like that should have made a difference. confused.gif

Here's the response curve for all three subs from the listening position:


Room modes are impacting the response a bit, but I'm unwilling to relocate the subs to acoustically superior locations if it means tripping over them. Anyway, I'm very pleased with the SQ at this point with all three playing so I've lost interest in further tweaking. I'm looking forward to enjoying a couple LFE-heavy flicks tonight... smile.gif
post #303 of 703
img1459fd.th.jpg
img1462d.th.jpg
Looks excellent. Built excellently. THANKS Nathan for the ALU casing. Can't wait to play around with it this friday mad.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif .
post #304 of 703
has anyone actually figured out how to use the AllDSP software?

it's wicked confusing and there is no documentation for it.
post #305 of 703
I had a link to their website that Nathan gave me ages ago, but I can't find it and googling doesn't help. Can't recall if there was documentation online..
post #306 of 703
Here is a bit of help:

http://www.alldsp.com/frame.php?content=Software

From this link, at the top there is the documentation link.

This cannot be stated to emphatically:

This is very complex software. It allows you to do things that are next to impossible with normal EQ methods. You can very quickly blowup your amp and or your driver by messing around with these settings.


Check with FUNK AUDIO BEFORE YOU DO ANY OF THIS!


It will void your warranty eek.gif

Mark Kravchenko

Consultant and Designer
post #307 of 703
Feel free to call or email us for help using this software. We now have several presets available that we are now shipping the 18.0 with saved on the unit itself, and anyone who has purchased in the past should receive an email with them soon, changing these presets is easy but feel free to call us and we will walk you through it.
post #308 of 703
Well after a bunch of research on here and Nathan's willingness to provide answers to all my questions I've gone ahead and ordered a couple of the 18.0 bad boyz. I am confident that they will be a noticeable replacement (addition?) to my 2 fathom f113s. I was going back and forth with these, the subM and cap s2. The relative size and some actual gp numbers clinched it for me. Can't wait.....literally I think the wait may kill me!
post #309 of 703
All our customers to date will tell you, they are well worth the wait.

I would like to let everyone know the prices for the 18.0 and 18.3 will be going up %10 as of Jan 1st 2013, along with the price increase we are going to be making some upgrades to the 18.0 and 18.3 including the 2.4kW X1 M2 amplifier, now to be called the 2.4kW X1 M3, that all new orders, as well as some recently placed orders, will have implemented at the current prices. So if your considering ordering do not miss out on this opportunity to get the improved products at current prices.
post #310 of 703
Hi Nathan. What improvements have been made to the M3 amp?
post #311 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

Hi Nathan. What improvements have been made to the M3 amp?

We are going to a one piece mounting plate/heat sink, this is allowing us to increase the already very generous heatsinking capability, and shrink the overall size of the amp. It will also look much nicer. We are also going to be upgrading the 15A rated power input connectors to 20A rated components, and we will be replacing the fuse with a circuit breaker/switch.

Unfortunately these will not fit in cabinets built for the M2. So I am sorry to say upgrading is not an option.
post #312 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubalis2 View Post

...as I really don't feel like trying to explain to my wife why yet another box is being delivered from Halfmoon Bay...

You can always say it's a late, exotic pumpkin delivery from Half Moon Bay, California and the CA is the U.S. designation for California. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by crackhead2k View Post


I think its a perfect time to to start a....
.....journey to find the "perfect" sub...

What might one consider the "perfect" sub? ???

For us, in our 3,500cuft living room which is open to the kitchen and entryway, I'm sure a pair of upgraded 18.0C's would do our needs a treat. Comments like your above make me wonder if I should be thinking otherwise.

(Just finished the thread. Very interesting thread; insightful. Kinda sorry the thread's content has come to an end.)

There's a lot of technical and consumer information in this thread. Too much for me to appreciate as much was well over my pay grade. I'm looking at eventually purchasing a pair of Seaton, SubMersive HP's or a pair of Funk Audio, 18.0C's with upgraded amplifiers. Can anybody give me insight as how these two subs compare side-by-side. I read the last GTG thread with three SubMersives being the final act and don't recall a Funk Audio being present.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/20/12 at 10:35am
post #313 of 703
Are there any Funk Audio owners that have done comparisons or has information they can share regarding a comparison between a pair of Funk Audio, 18.0C, single 18" driver per cabinet verses a pair of Seaton, SubMersive HP's; dual 15" drivers per cabinet?

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/20/12 at 3:40pm
post #314 of 703
Doing a bit of digging you find that Mark Seaton uses the Lab 15 driver.

A wee bit of simulation will get you a very accurate comparison.

Mark Kravchenko
post #315 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

Doing a bit of digging you find that Mark Seaton uses the Lab 15 driver.
A wee bit of simulation will get you a very accurate comparison.
Mark Kravchenko

Thanks for the suggestion. You'll have to forgive my ignorance but I'm not familiar with methods of simulation nor differences provided for in DSP's which are in different Amps.

From reading this thread, I see you're a designer/adviser and I'm the antithesis, a consumer of products. I was hoping for comments befitting a layperson. Unfortunately, this type of information has little meaning for me unless this type of information is linear and I can simply plug the appropriate information into a SPL/dB calculator.

This I know how to do. tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/20/12 at 4:32pm
post #316 of 703
Master Funk and I have already checked this out.

Maybe he will be so kind to post his findings.
post #317 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

Master Funk and I have already checked this out.
Maybe he will be so kind to post his findings.

Thanks. Technical wise, the best I've come up with is, the Funk, 18.0 C has about 3dB more output than the HP's. I like the design and smaller form factor of the 18.0 C better than that of the HP's. I've seen the graphs provided for in this thread and some for the HP's on, I think, Audioholics and it seems the frequency response curve for the 18.0 C is better tamed than that of the HP's.

I'm looking forward to the expected near-future data-bass test data regarding, frequency response, max output in the 16Hz - 25Hz range, THD levels at 105dB - 115dB (16Hz - 20Hz) level and the expected accompanying waterfall and spectrograph. Sans this type of information, I was hoping a consumer type with personal experience would be able to weigh in with their insight as opposed to driving you and Nathan crazy with basic consumer type questions.

At this time and moment, it seems my search for good looking, quality bass reproduction ends with the 18.0C. Now I'm simply needing two more things, corroboration from fellow users of Funk Audio products (the insight of their experience) and to gather up the green in which to light the candle.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/21/12 at 5:05am
post #318 of 703
Are there no users of Funk Audio products that can weigh-in and give insight to their efforts?
post #319 of 703
Ok gents here is an unvarnished as much of an apples to apples comparison as I can do without directly measuring a Seaton Submersive.

Taking the drivers used, the volumes of the enclosures and the available power and maximum mechanical excursion I created these graphs.

The red lines are the absolute maximum outputs that these drivers are capable of. There is nothing more that these drivers can give past these points.

They look pretty much the same right?

Look again at the one watt input levels. The Funk Audio Sub is twice as efficient where most of the real bang in the low end is. That is the greatest difference. Nathan has the distortion performance tests that we did and they are quite impressive. Without having a pair of LAB 15 's on hand I cannot tell you the distortion products of the Seaton Submersive.

The biggest difference is headroom in the medium low end. And this does make a striking difference.

Adding to the mix the difference in cabinet design, the Seaton cabinet is well designed, well braced Veneered 3/4" MDF

The Funk Audio cabinet is bent laminated Baltic Birch plywood. The cabinet is stiffer, and thicker.

Is there a night and day difference in the sound?

Probably not.

But there is a difference.



CB Response Eminence Lab 15 one watt.gif 23k .gif file


CB Response Eminence Lab 15.gif 26k .gif file


CB Funk Audio 18.0 one watt.gif 21k .gif file


CB Response Funk Audio 18.0.gif 23k .gif file
post #320 of 703
mwmkravchenko, thanks for the additional effort.
post #321 of 703
Mark stated several times that he doesn't use Eminence LAB 15 stock drivers - but a highly customized version of it. Eminence keeps the LAB 15 in its portfolio so that some basic components (like moving parts) keep getting produced for Marks needs.
post #322 of 703
I'll say this in defense of the simulations.

Be it highly modified or not.

This is a very fair assesent f the potential SPL coming off of both subs using the maximum allowed power input.

The surround is the same as the stock LAB15. The maximum possible excursion is limited by the combination of the surround and the spider.

I simmed using both of the companies internal cabinet volumes.

This is the second dominant factor. The volume of air behind the driver boosts the low to a certain degree as well.

Again I created the most even playing field and simulated the enclosures using a well respected program. No boost is applied as it is not applicable in terms of maximum output. The simulations are done at the maximum possible output in the first place.

The only real difference that I can point out is the long term thermal capability of the drivers are very different.

The Seaton driver is a 600 watt unit that can handle peaks of 1200 watts according to the application notes. Yes the aggregate is 2400 watts.

The Funk driver is a 1200 watt driver that can take peaks of 2400 watts.

I do a fair bit of design work for pro sound as well. And anecdotal evidence in terms of the LAB15 when pushed hard is not as good as the driver we chose for Nathans sub.

Numbers do not tell you everything.

Graphs are only useful when they are presented in a fair setting.

And you gotta sweat the details at this level of product. Both subs are pretty good. And they both have their niches.

If you guys really want a shoot out send me some LAB15's. I'll measure them with no problem.

MArk

Mark
Edited by mwmkravchenko - 11/26/12 at 4:14am
post #323 of 703
Thanks, Mark!

I myself am one of the first owners of Nathan's/your TSAD. I ordered what is now the 2012 18.3. I am a bit puzzled about the ground plane measurements Nathan posted. I was hoping for a larger difference between 18.0 and 18.3 in the 15Hz-35hz range (the one the PRs are supporting). Nathan speaks of twice the output - but +3db isn't twice the output even if 2 18.0 are located several feet from each other (you will still get almost +6db at 15Hz-20Hz). With co-locating 2 18.0s you get +6db over the entire passband.

What would be really interesting is measured data from TC-Sounds 5400 and 5100. Did you include those in your ground plane measurement session? Thanks!
post #324 of 703
In order for an apples to apples comparision we need to consider the $$$ value. I would expect a $3000 (shipped) subwoofer (soon to be $3300.) to test better than a $2350 (shipped) subwoofer.
Between Funk Audio, JTR Speakers, and SeatonSound They represent the Best of the subwoofer offerings. So how does one asses value to performance when at every performance level there is a price increase.
I uderstand Baltic Birch curved cabniets and more watts but at the price it should be better or at least test better.
It is actually fairly easy to compare apples to more expensive apples but is the price worth it? I know you "get what you pay for" and FA 18.0 pays in spades but those spades cost quite a bit.
I have been wondering how to compare price to performance with no luck.
Just 2 cents and something to consider.
Chris
Thank You for the break down.
It helps!!!
post #325 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

In order for an apples to apples comparision we need to consider the $$$ value. I would expect a $3000 (shipped) subwoofer (soon to be $3300.) to test better than a $2350 (shipped) subwoofer.

Not trying to split hairs and put too fine a point on your above, a Funk, 18.0C with upgraded Amp and cloth grill, is $2,150.00. Shipping is included.

18.0C-3.jpg

My online research shows the 18.0C performs about 3dB better than a SubMersive HP which consists of two 15" drivers and in my opinion, the 18.0C has more style when all and all is considered.

And my above is not a knock of any kind at the SubMersive HP's. Competition is grand and consumers get to take benefit of quality competition.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/26/12 at 12:47pm
post #326 of 703
I understood the comparison to be FA 18.0 to SubM HP not the FA 18.0c.
If someone could weigh in hear I would appreciate being corrected.
I understood the C version has a smaller amp and different driver (Italian) than the 2400 TSAD (Funk Audio in house) version.
I think the C stands for compact. Any clarification would be great.
Thanks
Chris
After rereading the above posts I really do not know which is which
the files say 18.0.
Sorry for any confusion. If it is the 18.0c than that would be apples to apples.
The 18.0 vs 18.0c is a Big difference !!!
Edited by countryWV - 11/26/12 at 1:48pm
post #327 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

After rereading the above posts I really do not know which is which

Neither do I. I compared the HP to the 18.0C as they're similar in overall output. As you suggested, the 18.0 is $3k delivered plus upgrades and has a 2.4kW Amp.
post #328 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Not trying to split hairs and put too fine a point on your above, a Funk, 18.0C with upgraded Amp and cloth grill, is $2,150.00. Shipping is included.

My online research shows the 18.0C performs about 3dB better than a SubMersive HP which consists of two 15" drivers and in my opinion, the 18.0C has more style when all and all is considered.
And my above is not a knock of any kind at the SubMersive HP's. Competition is grand and consumers get to take benefit of quality competition.
-

On line research is just that. As much as I admire the FA products and their gorgeous cabs, the Submersive HP has placed first or second at any of the premier big dog GTGs posted here, especially the blind audition GTG comparos, over like 4 or 5 years. I haven't seen a FA sub tested or compared at a recent GTG yet. Projected data and modeling is just that......projected. Spend $2400 for a Sub HP delivered and your done, with a very proven product and support. Mark Seaton designs and produces some of the best high end subs......history and real world testing proves this.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists
post #329 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by polizzio View Post

On line research is just that. As much as I admire the FA products and their gorgeous cabs, the Submersive HP has placed first or second at any of the premier big dog GTGs posted here, especially the blind audition GTG comparos, over like 4 or 5 years. I haven't seen a FA sub tested or compared at a recent GTG yet. Projected data and modeling is just that......projected. Spend $2400 for a Sub HP delivered and your done, with a very proven product and support. Mark Seaton designs and produces some of the best high end subs......history and real world testing proves this.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists

Ed used to put out graphs and modeling too and look where they are at. Submersive sub is proven and has a track record, nuff said.
post #330 of 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by polizzio View Post

On line research is just that. As much as I admire the FA products and their gorgeous cabs, the Submersive HP has placed first or second at any of the premier big dog GTGs posted here, especially the blind audition GTG comparos, over like 4 or 5 years. I haven't seen a FA sub tested or compared at a recent GTG yet. Projected data and modeling is just that......projected. Spend $2400 for a Sub HP delivered and your done, with a very proven product and support. Mark Seaton designs and produces some of the best high end subs......history and real world testing proves this.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1367811/subwoofer-shootout-subwoofer-roundup-url-lists

As you stated, I haven't seen anybody dragging their FA subs to a GTG. But then again, some of the models like the 18.0 C, have been out for only a couple of months.

Currently, based on conversation with Nathan at FA, he's submitting a sub to Josh at data-bass for evaluation. Not sure if one or several, nor which models. The evaluation information should be posted sometime over the next couple of months. I did note the last GTG considered of a pair of HPs and an F-2 and I don't care who one is, that's a lotta sub power at one time and it's hard not to come away with a smile after that kind of demonstration.

Tech wise, I'm sure we can agree, two 15" drivers equal one 18" driver. And physics says, Xmax sets a drivers limits, without distortion. My understanding, the SubMersive drivers have a 20mm Xmax and the FA drivers have an Xmax of ~25mm. In my opinion, these specs give the FA driver a slight edge over a pair of the SubMersive drivers. At 110dB, THD aside, I doubt anybody here is going "hear" a difference. tongue.gif

As I posted, I'm not knocking SubMersive subs and after all, this is a Funk Audio thread. I'm in it for form factor and efficiency of design and size does limit our choices. This is what turned me onto the Funk Audio product mix.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/27/12 at 12:11pm
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