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The 'NEW' YAQIN MS-20L Integrated Vacuum Tube Amp Thread - Page 5

post #121 of 796
1/29/11 at 1:14pm
Here's a short video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGRST8OQQ9I

I will get some better pictures up and give a proper review once my MS-12b arrives.
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post #122 of 796
1/29/11 at 1:30pm
A clinician cannot understand an artistic sense as that sense cannot be measured. However many 'tests' a clinician performs, how many charts are prepared and analyzed, the music will always be in the background, never the focus of a scientific attention.

Yet isn't the music the point of the entire effort?

There is a comparable scenario in the world of hobby photography. Within that hobby are those who derive their satisfaction in endless comparisons of specifications, of this lens and that one, one camera system or another - endlessly seeking an elusive optical perfection which is measurable, provable, and thus arguable. Within the same hobby are those who enjoy the photographs and derive their satisfaction in their sense of artistic accomplishment. Very often the twain do not meet, but sometimes they can get along with each other knowing that each enjoys the same hobby, albeit for very different reasons.
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post #123 of 796
1/29/11 at 2:29pm
Quote:


A clinician cannot understand an artistic sense as that sense cannot be measured. However many 'tests' a clinician performs, how many charts are prepared and analyzed, the music will always be in the background, never the focus of a scientific attention.

Yet isn't the music the point of the entire effort?

Except any artistic part in music or its creation doesn't have anything to do with the playback system lol

A cd player does not create art in any shape or form... Artists do, be it in live performances or studio, and then that performance gets recorded via microphones, translated into an electrical signal, then it gets mixed, altered, and then pressed/burned/recorded onto CDs, tapes, vinyls, etc... And there the artistic element of the thing ends.

A cd player reads the bits on cds, converts to analog and sends to the amp, which amplifies the signal and then powers the speakers, which converts that electrical signal into soundwaves, then it gets to the listener, and the loop is completed. As if the artist was in front of the listener!

For one to think an amplifier, cd player, cable, or any other device, as an actual artist, one must have a very poor grasp of the audio reproduction concepts. A cd/cable/amp/speaker does not create art, it simply serves a function, a purpose. That purpose is different for each link of a stereo system. And the whole system serves one function, sound reproduction. Note the term reproduction, not sound 'creation'... The whole concept of hifi, or high fidelity, is to reproduce the music performance with high fidelity. And even then, a system simply plays what is on the source (cd, vinyl, etc), as it's absolutely unaware of any actual musical performance...

The whole idea is to reproduce recording with as little distortion and as little FR aberrations as possible. This is made possible by so called "clinicians", also called engineers, researchers, inventors, nerds in labcoats, etc. using something called 'science' in which many tools are used such as, calculators, spectroscopes, spectral analyzers, laws of physics, brains, all the kind of thing audiophiles know very little about... Yet, they make their home music listening hobby possible... Without it, they'd be sitting in dark caves singing kumbaya over a fire...

A stereo does not know how to play music. It knows nothing about art, scales, rhythm, Diana Krall or the Backstreet Boys... It simply converts, for example, a bunch of 0s and 1s into soundwaves, which we interpret as music. We owe this to science and the scientists who made it all possible. Science might not know what music is artistic and what music isn't, yet it does not matter, because without it, without measurements, experimentation, studying of physical phenomenons, there would be no music... The world would be silent...

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post #124 of 796
1/29/11 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

Except any artistic part in music or its creation doesn't have anything to do with the playback system lol

A cd player does not create art in any shape or form... Artists do, be it in live performances or studio, and then that performance gets recorded via microphones, translated into an electrical signal, then it gets mixed, altered, and then pressed/burned/recorded onto CDs, tapes, vinyls, etc... And there the artistic element of the thing ends.

A cd player reads the bits on cds, converts to analog and sends to the amp, which amplifies the signal and then powers the speakers, which converts that electrical signal into soundwaves, then it gets to the listener, and the loop is completed. As if the artist was in front of the listener!

For one to think an amplifier, cd player, cable, or any other device, as an actual artist, one must have a very poor grasp of the audio reproduction concepts. A cd/cable/amp/speaker does not create art, it simply serves a function, a purpose. That purpose is different for each link of a stereo system. And the whole system serves one function, sound reproduction. Note the term reproduction, not sound 'creation'... The whole concept of hifi, or high fidelity, is to reproduce the music performance with high fidelity. And even then, a system simply plays what is on the source (cd, vinyl, etc), as it's absolutely unaware of any actual musical performance...

The whole idea is to reproduce recording with as little distortion and as little FR aberrations as possible. This is made possible by so called "clinicians", also called engineers, researchers, inventors, nerds in labcoats, etc. using something called 'science' in which many tools are used such as, calculators, spectroscopes, spectral analyzers, laws of physics, brains, all the kind of thing audiophiles know very little about... Yet, they make their home music listening hobby possible... Without it, they'd be sitting in dark caves singing kumbaya over a fire...

A stereo does not know how to play music. It knows nothing about art, scales, rhythm, Diana Krall or the Backstreet Boys... It simply converts, for example, a bunch of 0s and 1s into soundwaves, which we interpret as music. We owe this to science and the scientists who made it all possible. Science might not know what music is artistic and what music isn't, yet it does not matter, because without it, without measurements, experimentation, studying of physical phenomenons, there would be no music... The world would be silent...


Most photographer's know there are certain lenses which impart a quality to an image that is recognized by those who view the image. Such a quality may well be the result of a technical flaw, measurable, verifiable, and documented. Nevertheless certain such lenses are highly prized for the very effect which their flaws impart, commanding prices far in excess of an expected value for a lens of it's age or focal length or speed. Such a quality of image, whether technically 'good' or 'bad' may well be the element in the photographic process which brings an appreciation and value to a particular photographer's work and may also be the aspect in the creative process performed by a photographer necessary for he or she to bring the vision to viewable form.

All electronic equipment for sound reproduction is not of course a means to an artform, or is it? Music is not so cut and dried as is a photograph. Instead it is a fluid medium meant to evoke a response in the listener. No musician can control how his work is heard but he can hope for the desired response whether it is the rich full sound of a tube amplifier system or the cold digital harsh or squeeky sound of solid state equipment which brings it forth.

Different strokes, but it's the little tube buffer in my system that brought Leonard Cohen to my table, his voice seeming to come from my coffee cup.
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post #125 of 796
1/29/11 at 7:02pm

Get to the choppa!!!

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post #126 of 796
1/29/11 at 8:47pm
Thread Starter 
Ha Ha!!! very funny!!

That pic scares me, I am gonna have nightmares!!!

I know I gotta to get to da choppa fast!!!!!

Predator didn't scare me as much as that pic!!

Now, about the Yaqin, I think you like it, so what do you think?
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post #127 of 796
1/29/11 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by krs View Post

Most photographer's know there are certain lenses which impart a quality to an image that is recognized by those who view the image. Such a quality may well be the result of a technical flaw, measurable, verifiable, and documented. Nevertheless certain such lenses are highly prized for the very effect which their flaws impart, commanding prices far in excess of an expected value for a lens of it's age or focal length or speed. Such a quality of image, whether technically 'good' or 'bad' may well be the element in the photographic process which brings an appreciation and value to a particular photographer's work and may also be the aspect in the creative process performed by a photographer necessary for he or she to bring the vision to viewable form.

All electronic equipment for sound reproduction is not of course a means to an artform, or is it? Music is not so cut and dried as is a photograph. Instead it is a fluid medium meant to evoke a response in the listener. No musician can control how his work is heard but he can hope for the desired response whether it is the rich full sound of a tube amplifier system or the cold digital harsh or squeeky sound of solid state equipment which brings it forth.

Different strokes, but it's the little tube buffer in my system that brought Leonard Cohen to my table, his voice seeming to come from my coffee cup.

Photography captures views. Photographer is the artist. Hi-fi music reproduction is to reproduce the artist's (musician) work as close to the original as possible. Veering off from what the artist intended is not high fidelity.
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post #128 of 796
1/30/11 at 5:10am
Geez, geek, the 'artists' intent is to get their music sold so they can move out of their parent's basements. Is a deaf Pete Townsend or Neal Young capable of determining if the recording engineer mucked around a bit? What about a stoned Willie Nelson? Or Amy Winehouse after she's been on a speedball spree? Maybe Joplin had some idea while she would knock down bottles of Southern Comfort? Did Beethoven know?

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post #129 of 796
1/30/11 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

Now, about the Yaqin, I think you like it, so what do you think?

I'm blown away!!!

The vocals are amazing.I hear things in the music that I never heard before.

My wife is a BIG Lionel Richie fan,so when she got home yesterday I said
come listen to this and see what you think. I put on "Say You Say Me"
the look on her face pretty much said it all,it really was like he was standing
in the room. to quote her " You can hear the breath in his voice".

But it's not only the vocals.The soundstage is just as amazing.

All of this with only about 8 hours of burn in,I can't imagine what it's going to sound like when it hits the 100 hour mark,then around the 300 hour mark when the tubes start to make them make themselves at home,I may have to take sometime off work
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post #130 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krs View Post

Most photographer's know there are certain lenses which impart a quality to an image that is recognized by those who view the image. Such a quality may well be the result of a technical flaw, measurable, verifiable, and documented. Nevertheless certain such lenses are highly prized for the very effect which their flaws impart, commanding prices far in excess of an expected value for a lens of it's age or focal length or speed. Such a quality of image, whether technically 'good' or 'bad' may well be the element in the photographic process which brings an appreciation and value to a particular photographer's work and may also be the aspect in the creative process performed by a photographer necessary for he or she to bring the vision to viewable form.

All electronic equipment for sound reproduction is not of course a means to an artform, or is it? Music is not so cut and dried as is a photograph. Instead it is a fluid medium meant to evoke a response in the listener. No musician can control how his work is heard but he can hope for the desired response whether it is the rich full sound of a tube amplifier system or the cold digital harsh or squeeky sound of solid state equipment which brings it forth.

Different strokes, but it's the little tube buffer in my system that brought Leonard Cohen to my table, his voice seeming to come from my coffee cup.

You're confused. When you purchase a cd/vinyl/tape/mp3/etc, you purchase the final creation, in your example, the photograph. The camera or the lens would be the equivalent of an instrument, a type of guitar, type of strings, or maybe a type of effect a studio engineer would use such as reverb, chorus, etc. You, the listener, or the person viewing a photograph, have absolutely no say in the creation of the 'art'. The 'tool', be it lens, guitar, effect, etc. has already been chosen by the artist! You, the listener or viewer, have no say in the content creation. You have no role in it. Unlike the people who actually create music. Unlike a photographer who chooses a particular lens for a particular photograph. You're not an artist because you listen to music.

You do realize that when you're looking at a photograph you have no say in the type of lens it was shot with? Your argument about listeners "deriving their satisfaction in their sense of artistic accomplishment" is akin to having a bunch of tools entering a photo gallery, looking at pictures, and saying, "boy, this is so bland, look at those boring colors, those people know nothing about art!", then having them pull out Vaselin'd pink tinted glasses, putting them on, and then start to rave: "My god look at those fantastic images! Now someone can truly enjoy art, look at how artistic we are, look at how much more better the images are now! People who don't wear Vaselin smeared glasses which makes images pink and blurry don't know anything about art! They just like sharp, boring images... There's no sens of satisfaction, no sens of artistic accomplishment! We are truly artists!"

Do you understand the failure of your argument? You, the music listener, aren't an artist, and by choosing the road of low fidelity, aren't creating anything which is anymore artistic than real artists already produced...

And btw, artists do have the ability to give their music 'tube' sound. To add the 'warmth' and coloration... If they don't, it's because they didn't intend their music to sound like that. In the same way a photographer who used a sharp lens with no tint filter wanted the viewer to view the photograph as it was taken. He could have used a soft focus lens, or purposely shot a scene out of focus, or used a filter to give an image a particular tint. But he didn't. So putting on Vaselin smeared glasses which will make the whole thing a mess plus giving it a pink hue isn't improving anything, it's not how the photographer would have wanted you to view the image... Same for distorting and coloring the music...

Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Photography captures views. Photographer is the artist. Hi-fi music reproduction is to reproduce the artist's (musician) work as close to the original as possible. Veering off from what the artist intended is not high fidelity.

damn... ++
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post #131 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by geekhd View Post

Photography captures views. Photographer is the artist. Hi-fi music reproduction is to reproduce the artist's (musician) work as close to the original as possible. Veering off from what the artist intended is not high fidelity.

Yeah, and what would you say to the photographer who demanded that you put on rose-colored (or 3D) glasses in order that you can share his mind's view THE WAY HE INTENDED IT TO BE SEEN?

Or to the musician who recorded the entirety of his work using tube gear and could only hear it himself through that gear when evaluating the end result against his own mind's perception of the music he put down?

Try a CD of Benny Goodman's 1938 Carnegie Hall concert which was recorded using a single microphone hung from the rafters over his head while he was on stage and first released as an LP in 1950, 12 years later. Think Benny was considering the recorded result when he let it out for 12 minutes of "Sing, Sing, Sing"? Was what you now hear, can you imagine, what the concert sounded like to those in the bleachers ( LoL at the idea of bleachers at Carnegie Hall). How's that for "veering off from what the artist intended", Ludwig? ( - Chu Gai)
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post #132 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:46am
Jeez, Gandorf, who said anything about tint filters or soft focus? There's more to the nature of lenses and light than storebought gimmickry, but that's off point as much as thinking that accurate equipment will best recreate music. I don't agree with your premise that there IS a best recreation of music.

See, as Chu Gai was bright enough to bring to us- the artist doesn't control what we hear or how we hear it. We do, by our preferences for the peculiar sound of the reproductive equipment we use. A matter of preference as the 'art' is long done and out of anyone's control. Is it better with precision or better with warmth? Who could say other than our own imaginations of what it must have sounded like originally and in that we are free to choose, free to enjoy an artistic imagination.

So you make your measurements and I'll ignore them, push?
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post #133 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:49am
just sticking my head in to say mine is hooked up... and i'm pleased...

back to your normally scheduled bickering... i was really hoping that this thread wouldn't turn into what it is turning into...
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post #134 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krs View Post

Yeah, and what would you say to the photographer who demanded that you put on rose-colored (or 3D) glasses in order that you can share his mind's view THE WAY HE INTENDED IT TO BE SEEN?

There is a term called "artistic license". If that's what the artist demands, there isn't much I can say.
Quote:


Or to the musician who recorded the entirety of his work using tube gear and could only hear it himself through that gear when evaluating the end result against his own mind's perception of the music he put down?

Try a CD of Benny Goodman's 1938 Carnegie Hall concert which was recorded using a single microphone hung from the rafters over his head while he was on stage and first released as an LP in 1950, 12 years later. Think Benny was considering the recorded result when he let it out for 12 minutes of "Sing, Sing, Sing"? Was what you now hear, can you imagine, what the concert sounded like to those in the bleachers ( LoL at the idea of bleachers at Carnegie Hall). How's that for "veering off from what the artist intended", Ludwig? ( - Chu Gai)

Sound reproduction technology has progressed since 1938, thankfully. Paul Klipsch's experiment which the audience not able to tell which is which between live sound of his wife playing piano or recording of it playing through a speaker placed under the piano would be one of the results of hi-fi technology progress.
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post #135 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:54am
Thread Starter 
Hey guys, please stay on the topic. I started this thread because I was excited about getting a tube amp, mainly the 20L, because I had read such good things about tubes.

I invited everyone to add comments about, reviews or inquiries of the 20L, not to get into a lengthy discussions of the comparison of SS and Tubes. Everyone has their opinions and that is ok, but please not here.


Thanks,

Rob

[quote:I'm blown away!!!

The vocals are amazing.I hear things in the music that I never heard before.

My wife is a BIG Lionel Richie fan,so when she got home yesterday I said
come listen to this and see what you think. I put on "Say You Say Me"
the look on her face pretty much said it all,it really was like he was standing
in the room. to quote her " You can hear the breath in his voice".

But it's not only the vocals.The soundstage is just as amazing.

All of this with only about 8 hours of burn in,I can't imagine what it's going to sound like when it hits the 100 hour mark,then around the 300 hour mark when the tubes start to make them make themselves at home,I may have to take sometime off work End quote]

Tubedoctor:

"Blown away" is a good explanation as I was too. You are right, seems I was hearing things as I never have heard before. and still do

And, yes the sound stage was everywhere, just amazing.

As I have said before in my review, for entry level tube amp, it produces a high end performance sound.

I can tell you what it sounds like at the 100 hr mark.....fabulous!!!

Glad you are enjoying it.

Rob

Thanks, ccotenj, appreciate you stepping in here!
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post #136 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krs View Post

Yeah, and what would you say to the photographer who demanded that you put on rose-colored (or 3D) glasses in order that you can share his mind's view THE WAY HE INTENDED IT TO BE SEEN?

Nothing... Either you put on the glasses like he intended you to when viewing the photo, or you don't and don't view the image as he wanted you to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by krs View Post

Or to the musician who recorded the entirety of his work using tube gear and could only hear it himself through that gear when evaluating the end result against his own mind's perception of the music he put down?

What? Take electric guitar. An artist uses a Mesa Boogie dual rectifier with his favorite settings and records himself playing on it. That will sound very different than if he had used a crate SS guitar amp, wouldn't you agree? Playing back this recorded guitar on a high fidelity system, the Mesa Boogie will sound like the Mesa Boogie... And not like the Crate, correct? Now if you distort and color that sound of the Mesa Boogie using a low fi system, the Mesa Boogie's sound will be colored and distorted, hence, not like the artist intended...

What you seem to be implying is that since the artist used a Mesa Boogie (tube) amp, to be as the artist intended, it should be played through tube (another Mesa Boogie dual rectifier?) amp... Uh... No... That would just sound like an horrible distorted mess... Because the playback system would definitely not be hifi!

Say what you will, but most tubes color the sound... Maybe even distort it depending on the volume and the amp... In my experience, better tube amps do it less than budget tubes, but still significantly more than SS amps. But many people find it pleasant, that coloration and maybe even distortion... But to say that it's "how an artist wanted you to hear it" is ludicrous... And it's akin to saying a photographer wanted you to view his photographs with vaselin'd pink tinted glasses because you like to view things with vaselin'd pink tinted glasses... And no, putting on vaselin'd pink tinted glasses does not make you an artist nor does it any type of artistic improvement on the music/photograph...
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post #137 of 796
1/30/11 at 7:57am
BTW Grandarf, you misquoted or misunderstood, or something, my text when you base an argument countering what you say is my idea of "Your argument about listeners "deriving their satisfaction in their sense of artistic accomplishment" above.

That's so far off what I wrote that I don't know how to respond to it, so won't. Go back for a reread, eh?
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post #138 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

just sticking my head in to say mine is hooked up... and i'm pleased...

back to your normally scheduled bickering... i was really hoping that this thread wouldn't turn into what it is turning into...

Oh, I didn't get the first part of your comment. Good..... I am glad you are pleased with the 20L, so when you get a little time on it, please comment.

Don't forget considering the GE 5654Ws.

Thanks,

Rob
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post #139 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post


Thanks, ccotenj, appreciate you stepping in here!

you are welcome, but i doubt my stepping in will do much good... too much prior experience has shown that once certain posters get the bit in between their teeth, they are incapable of letting go of it, and will relentlessly restate their position (rather than saying their piece and moving on to other threads where their wisdom is needed), bait other posters and so on until either everyone else is driven off or a moderator steps in and closes the thread...

wish i could have a more hopeful outlook... but if you look around a bit, you'll find a more than a few "dead" threads that end the same way, with the only the same half dozen or so posters left in them, bickering back and forth...
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post #140 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

Hey guys, please stay on the topic. I started this thread because I was excited about getting a tube amp, mainly the 20L, because I had read such good things about tubes.

I invited everyone to add comments about, reviews or inquiries of the 20L, not to get into a lengthy discussions of the comparison of SS and Tubes. Everyone has their opinions and that is ok, but please not here.


Thanks,

Woodsart, I'll be happy to comply with your request but will remind you that it was YOU arguing the superiority of the tube sound you enjoy? Remember your "Have I convinced you yet?" post?

Here's a puzzle: I bought an Adcom gfa 555 with the full suite of "Musical Concepts" mods on Friday and expect the solid state amp to completely enhance my perception of music in this downstairs room of mine. I'll be using the Marantz amp as a preamp only, still with the Yaqin tube buffer for the time being.
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post #141 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:24am
Quote:


Jeez, Gandorf, who said anything about tint filters or soft focus? There's more to the nature of lenses and light than storebought gimmickry, but that's off point as much as thinking that accurate equipment will best recreate music. I don't agree with your premise that there IS a best recreation of music.

What? Don't you know what a soft focus lens is? You think it's 'gimmickry'? You think lens filters are gimmicks? lmao! What about polarizers, flashes, tripods, tilt-shift lenses, etc? They're just tools to help photographers capture light, which is what photography is...

Quote:


See, as Chu Gai was bright enough to bring to us- the artist doesn't control what we hear or how we hear it.

Of course they do! It's called audio engineering... And btw I don't think that was Chu's point...

Quote:


We do, by our preferences for the peculiar sound of the reproductive equipment we use.

No... The premise of high fidelity is playing back a recording in an accurate manner, and that's how the whole thing works. The audio engineer expects you to hear his creation exactly as he put it. He's not expecting you to run it through a dozen filters, EQs, effects, etc... And even if he did, how could he possibly do it if everybody ran a different set of effects and sound coloration? Impossible.. If you want to hear it as artists wanted you to hear it, you have to reproduce the signal in an accurate manner, free of distortion and coloration.

Quote:


A matter of preference as the 'art' is long done and out of anyone's control.

Yet it still holds true to the above... Listening to a 80's record today, you're still hearing what the artist and audio engineers intended you to on a hifi system...

Quote:


Is it better with precision or better with warmth?

If you ask the artist/audio engineer, easily precision, as it's how he wanted you to hear the music... If you ask the listener, then it's a crapshoot, everyone will have a different opinion and the it becomes a subjective thing. But you're not sitting in with the artist/engineer making recording decisions, you're playing back his creation... You're welcome to listen to it any way you like, modify it however you like, but then it's just that... You altering/coloring the sound!

Quote:


Who could say other than our own imaginations of what it must have sounded like originally and in that we are free to choose, free to enjoy an artistic imagination.

Well you are aware that in a recording, the sounds are actually recorded and you can hear them right??? Sure, you can 'imagine' that it had more bass and then add 10dB in the bass registers, but that's not hifi, that's not what the recording dictates, and you are coloring the recording, altering what the artist intended you to hear. That's not hifi, not high fidelity!

Quote:


So you make your measurements and I'll ignore them, push?

Push? What's that supposed to mean? And what measurements are you talking about?

Or maybe you mean something along the line of, but opposite of: "I listen to music the way it was supposed to and you listen to your altered/colored music the way you want to?" Yeah sure... That would work, that's how it's always worked I believe... So yeah... You could have said: "I'll listen to my colored distorted music, and you won't hear it." Uuugh... yeah... you do that... That's how it always worked... kthxbye!
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post #142 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:31am
I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this question,but anyway..

As I said in another post I orderd the Yaqin MS-12b which is the phono and line
preamp. The phono stage uses the 12ax7 the line stage uses 12au7.Knowing that
the 12au7 is lower gain.Would I be able to use two 12ax7's instead of the 12au7's
without problems or would the 12ax7's be to much gain for a line level input?

Or I did four 12au7's,two in the line and two in the phono.Would this not be enough gain for the phono stage?
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post #143 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:34am
I guess one good thing to take from the thread derail is that you guys keep bumping it to the top. How about starting a new thread related to photography?
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post #144 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krs View Post

Woodsart, I'll be happy to comply with your request but will remind you that it was YOU arguing the superiority of the tube sound you enjoy? Remember your "Have I convinced you yet?" post?

Here's a puzzle: I bought an Adcom gfa 555 with the full suite of "Musical Concepts" mods on Friday and expect the solid state amp to completely enhance my perception of music in this downstairs room of mine. I'll be using the Marantz amp as a preamp only, still with the Yaqin tube buffer for the time being.

Well, then I will have to apologize to all as I had no intention of creating a monster!!!

The 'have I convinced you yet' was sort of a pun, a 'just kidding comment' a fun expression of the excitement I would like everyone to have by owning a 20L, since it is a fun toy to play with!.

Forgive me if I started this as that was not my purpose!

Honestly, I hope that I never take this hobby that seriously! I guess I should retract my statement of being 'eat up with it as well' as I would never want to reach that point myself, (it was a joke to be taken lightly).

I don't remember where I said that "superior sound"...clarifying that I will say that I should have meant from my Onkyo 2 channel. And it was a big step up from that SS amp. From a superior SS amp, I don't know I have not listened critically to one to say. But I have no doubt the sound would be fabulous and top notch!!

This is a hobby to enjoy, I intend to do just that! I mentioned earlier that "my knowledge is limited" especially in comparison with you guys. And am sure you know what you are talking about, but, can we just talk about the 20L amp?

And...I hope you guys enjoy your equipment SS or Tubes...Hey, whatever you choose and enjoy is just fine with me (if that matters to you), and I do respect your thoughts and opinions!

Thanks,

Rob
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post #145 of 796
1/30/11 at 8:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubedoctor1971 View Post

I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this question,but anyway..

As I said in another post I orderd the Yaqin MS-12b which is the phono and line
preamp. The phono stage uses the 12ax7 the line stage uses 12au7.Knowing that
the 12au7 is lower gain.Would I be able to use two 12ax7's instead of the 12au7's
without problems or would the 12ax7's be to much gain for a line level input?

Or I did four 12au7's,two in the line and two in the phono.Would this not be enough gain for the phono stage?

Hey man,

Did you order this from Canadian HiFi, if so, I guarantee Song can advise you.

I know that I can't help you with this.

Rob
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post #146 of 796
1/30/11 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubedoctor1971 View Post

I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this question,but anyway..

As I said in another post I orderd the Yaqin MS-12b which is the phono and line
preamp. The phono stage uses the 12ax7 the line stage uses 12au7.Knowing that
the 12au7 is lower gain.Would I be able to use two 12ax7's instead of the 12au7's
without problems or would the 12ax7's be to much gain for a line level input?

Or I did four 12au7's,two in the line and two in the phono.Would this not be enough gain for the phono stage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsart View Post

Hey man,

Did you order this from Canadian HiFi, if so, I guarantee Song can advise you.

I know that I can't help you with this.

Rob

Even if that's somewhat off topic... Is there absolutely no objectivity concerning tubes? I mean, vhs seemed to have a sort of aversion to measurements, but is there no measurements of any kind concerning tubes?

If I want to build a speaker, I can find measurements about say a tweeter, look at its response, distortion, etc. and get a decent idea. Now it seems to me like a tube amp is a rather sum of all parts... So when considering using a different tube, I'm guessing the end sound of the amp will vary depending on every single tube on the amp? How do you know what combination works, what's the results, before actually buying the tube? Not that I don't have confidence in my listening ability, but I don't think that given 20 tubes and 20 different combination, I could even begin to find out which is better...

Looking at canadianhifi, at 60$ a pop, (so 120$ for two I assume? Nah, probably 60 for a matched pair...), how do you know if it'll be an improvement, or maybe just a side step, with a new tube having just different characteristics?

I guess what I'm asking, or trying to rationalize, since we, as hobbyists, know pretty much nothing about the inner workings of a tube amp, how do we choose the right tubes? Were it measurements of different amps with different tube combination, then it would be relatively easy to make a choice, is there such a thing? Or does your only recourse the subjective opinion of others? Or is there some good sites dedicated to objectively quantify tubes and their quality/effects? In audio, I have a severe aversion of dealers and their 'suggestions'... Many would push you snake oil or overpriced equipment without giving it a second thought... So in my book that would strike them out for possible source of info... Their primary reason of being being that do have something to sell...
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post #147 of 796
1/30/11 at 9:29am
Thread Starter 
tubedoctor,

Of course, I meant Canadian HiFi on Ebay, not the website Canadian HiFi, seems they sell tubes with higher price amps. They look great though, but Song is on Ebay, whether he is the online company, I can't comment on that.

However, if you search the internet and google the tubes, you may be surprised what you can find.

I am sure Song can answer your question, as he was very helpful and knowledgeable with his products.
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post #148 of 796
1/30/11 at 10:04am
Thanks,

I sent Song a email and within 2 minutes I got this back.

"12AU7 has lower gain than 12AX7. So I think noise may be higher if you replace 12AU7 with 12AX7. If you have NOS non-Chinese made 12AX7 tubes you can roll the stock tubes 12AX7B to reduce noise.

In addition, the 12AU7 tubes will work only if you select turntable (RIAA) input. When you select CD input, these two tubes are in “idle” status.

Song"



I thought I'd post it for anyone else who may want to know.


So I ordered two NOS RCA 12au7 clear tops and two NOS RCA 12ax7 clear tops.
both of 1961 vintage.

Now all I have to do is find some nice GE EL34's for the MS-20L


But here is the best part....

With buying the MS-20L and the MS-12B and rolling the tubes in both I'm still in under a $1000.
And when I roll the EL34's I will be a hair over a thousand.

I was planing on buying YAQIN MS-300C at first but I'm so glad I went with what I did.
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post #149 of 796
1/30/11 at 10:11am
Look, tubes are cool. When they glow especially on a cold winter's day you get a nice glow inside. When you glow, you start tapping your feet. And when you're tapping those feet, the little lady can't help but want to crank out the vinyl and...

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post #150 of 796
1/30/11 at 10:41am
Thread Starter 
Excellent, I knew Song would be the one to ask. He is a great source and supplier and good on his products! I guess I have dealt with so many people in the retail that a dealer that is honest and upfront and very helpful after the sale is refreshing!

After all a 100% rating says something, right?

Let us know when you get everything rolled!

Have a great afternoon,

Rob
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