Vienna Acoustics Haydn Grand vs Ascend Acoustics Sierra vs Swan 2.1

That's entirely up to you. Have you listened to the Haydn's? If so, how do you like them?

The Haydns are a very nice loudspeaker and was actually one of the comparison speakers we used to benchmark the Sierra-1, so I am quite familiar with it. It is a bit more relaxed / laid back than the Sierra-1 with a slightly depressed upper midrange response and the highs start to roll-off at about 10kHz. This tends to make the speaker sound punchy but a bit soft and less detailed.

From a purely subjective standpoint, the 2 speakers sound quite a bit different from each other and as to which you would prefer, you would have to listen to both, if possible, to make that determination. From an objective perspective, the Haydn does not measure better nor does it use better components than the Sierra-1. In addition, while the Haydn is mostly sold online, it is sold through online retail establishments who make a profit on the sale thus it should not truly be considered an Internet Direct loudspeaker.

For example, the Sierra-1 is sold by us only - there are no profits for retailers in the speaker's pricing so comparing the MSRP's of the 2 speakers is rather useless as the 2 speakers have completely different distribution methods.

If you have the opportunity to compare the speakers directly, it would be highly recommended. I believe Best Buy has the Haydn's in stock at most stores and they do allow returns, as do we...

Hope this helps!

What online retailers sell Vienna? Sumiko did not allow online sales, neither will VA NA.

I can't comment on the VA HGs as I've never heard them, but I do currently have a pair of both the Sierras and D2.1 SEs. Note that right now, I only have the original, stock versions of each and don't yet have the new upgrades that are now or will soon be available for the both of them. I haven't ever really direct A/B compared them to each other when level matched, but I've listened to one for an extended period of time, then the other for a while on the same electronics in the same room though.

They definitely sound very different from each other. It has been covered in depth here and at other forums about the differences between the two, of which I really can't add anything new to that hasn't already been said before. IMO, the Ascends definitely make the bigger first impression right off the bat, but as time goes by, the tables start to turn (at least they did for me). The more you listen to them, the more you start to appreciate just how damned good the Swans really are. They just kept drawing me in more and more over time. The more time I spent with them, the more and more I liked them. You can literally listen to them both all day long without ever getting listener's fatigue.

As for some intangibles, I think the Swans look much better (mine are gloss piano black for the Swans and the natural bamboo finish for the Sierras). Also, the Sierras have optional port plugs which help to give them much more flexibility in placement and set up options however, whereas the D2.1 SEs pretty much HAVE to be on stands out away from the front wall behind them. So if you are unable to place them this way, then your decision has already pretty much been made for you by sheer default unless you were willing to maybe consider the Swan D1.1 SEs. Another thing is that if you were to do up a surround system with them (I only have two channel for them both right now), it looks to me like the Swan's D 1.1 SEC matching center speaker might be a little better than the Sierra1 Center, but I'm just speculating here. Also, I think I saw something somewhere that there might be a forthcoming D2.1 SEC, which should be even that much better than the current model. Maybe Jon can confirm or deny this either way. Speaking of which, BTW, both Dave and Jon are extremely helpful and knowledgeable, and you will great, top notch, 2nd to none customer service either way.

The final intangible is the Swan is usually somewhat cheaper, thus arguably a better value. Note that I got my D2.1 SEs when they were on sale for $500, plus a set of their matching stands for $99. Shipping for the speakers and stands was $74 and some change, so figure the total cost was right at $675. I got my Sierra1s "re-certified" for $678 with free shipping. So basically I got a free set of stands with the Swans that they look good on (whereas I've never been truly happy with the way the Sierras looked on any set of stands I've had them on because of the natural bamboo finish). Plus, the Swans were brand new while the Sierras technically were not.

The Sierra1 obviously has a big following here at AVS, which is definitely understandable and justifiable, but I just can't understand why the D2.1 SE doesn't seem to have a bigger following here than it does. Especially when it's usually a little cheaper than the Sierras, thus arguably a better value. They are both IMO excellent speakers at their price points which compete very favorably with anything at or even double their price, either ID or B&M. I once bought a pair of Revel Performa M22s new in the discontinued maple and black finish on clearance for half price of $1000, but short of stumbling across a deal like that, it would be hard to top them in a new speaker for the $$$.

Bottom line, like I said before, the Sierra is also a great speaker too, but if forced at gunpoint to choose one or the other, it would be the Swans. But if forced at gunpoint to give up the Swans, I'd be happy to keep the Sierras (and live). Now, that is all based on the current, stock models. It may very well change after I hear the upgrades.

My advice is to wait to the new upgraded Sierra NrTs are available, and order a pair of them, and also order a pair of the new upgraded D2.1 SE Customs at the same time. Spend a month listening to them both in your room with your music/movies on your electronics and decide for yourself which you like better. Then return the one you don't like as much for a refund. IMO, it would be well worth the cost of return shipping for one of the pairs to know for sure for yourself exactly which one you like the best instead of always have that lingering, nagging feeling of wondering "what if".

Either way, whichever one you pick however, you will have a great speaker! It's like being able to have a choice between Angelina Jolie and Charlize Theron, you literally can't lose no matter which way you go between them. Although having them both at the same time would be the bomb!

Again, I would HIGHLY recommend auditioning them both for yourself to make your choice instead of just taking the word of me and/or others.

Hope this helps.

I'll echo what David said: Owing to there being no conventional dealer margin, the Internet-direct distribution path offers the high likelihood for savings. A substantial investment in driver and cabinet technology, which I believe both ID models present here possess to one degree or another, allow one to acquire parts and performance that could handily exceed those in products burdened by the usual markups of B&M distribution.

In its class the Swan D2.1se is also constructed from Swan's top drivers, and all-up, is a hefty, well-put together component. The midbass driver incorporates a who's-who of important features, including FEA design, a cast, ventilated frame, a huge 75mm voice coil, and a hybrid Neo-and-ferrite motor. The large 28mm silk dome tweeter adds to this model's dynamic power, which it's noted for.

The Swan D2.1se Custom, which is a radically improved D2.1se, carries crossover quality and in our opinion, authentically-musical sound quality to a high level as well. With three finish options, there are six access points covered by these two models.

I'd also like to repeat some of the remarks I've made elsewhere: The D2.1se is regularly compared to speakers in the next size class down. As a 6.5"-based 2-way stand monitor, however, it should probably be thought of somewhat differently than members of the 5.25"-based class. (The Swan D1.1se is a 5.25"-based product that uses the D2.1se's treble driver and midbass motor in a smaller cabinet tuned to a higher cutoff frequency.)

A nominal 6.5" driver has 40%+ more surface area than a nominal 5.25" driver, for a fundamental distinction between the two varieties of drivers and the classes of products they're found in.

A larger midbass driver typically requires a larger net enclosure volume. This principle bears out on these three models, where the D2.1se houses just under sixth-tenths of a cubic foot whereas the two 5.25" systems range from roughly four-tenths to .45 of a cubic foot, at least by an estimate based on published specs and assuming 3/4" cabinet walls.

Physics says the larger system should possess advantages related to Hoffman's Iron Law: more enclosure volume means more efficient output in some ratio of F3 (bass cutoff) and energy conversion (loudness per unit of electrical input). Of course, other variables factor too, including piston displacement - the larger woofer typically displays lower IM distortion - and linear displacement, where a very long throw smaller driver may move as much air as a larger driver with moderate excursion, albeit with much greater cone motion.

Both D2.1se versions are tuned to go low, which explains why they're presented as stand monitors and not bookshelf speakers. Swan has settled on giving the stock version a 85dB sensitivity - at a true 8 nominal ohms - and thereby allowed the bass to extend well below 50Hz. The D2.1se Custom is extended down roughly another 5Hz to roughly 40Hz.

Speaking of impedance, the remaining variable in determining parametrically what a speaker is in terms of a basic low frequency air pump is impedance. Since speakers are typically rated for voltage sensitivity and not efficiency, one should distinguish between them. 2.83 volts across 8 and then across 4 ohms results in sensitivity numbers that vary by 3dB. The lower impedance speaker sources more current and measures a higher sensitivity (loudness) figure than its true efficiency (energy conversion) would seem to indicate.

In this case the D2.1se is roughly a 7.5 ohm speaker (at minimum) while unless I'm mistaken, the 5.25" models appear to reach about 4 ohms at their lowest magnitude. (Not being a static resistance, a speaker's impedance should be determined from it's lower octaves, where only the bass tuning peak in the bass and the initial crossover rise on the midrange deviate from the midbass driver's actual voice coil impedance.)

The specifications of each of these three bass systems seem to spell out that the behavior of each is in fact tied closely to the combination of enclosure size and impedance, with driver parameters - significantly including diaphragm area - playing significant roles as well.

At any rate, they're three roughly compatible designs, each has a following that has vetted its performance, and each appears to offer ample value to the high end enthusiast on a budget.

Hi All,

Just to clear up where Vienna Acoustics products can and cannot be sold I'll refer you to our Internet Policy "Vienna expressly prohibits transactional sales of its Products through Internet Sellers."

At no time in the past or in the future will our products be sold new, online. Nothing against direct sales- just not our business model.

Cheers,

Patrick Butler
Vienna Acoustics- North America

You can always post an audition request in Sierra and Swam threads to see if someone in your area will let you drop by for a beer.

My bad... I was fully thinking "retail" but typed "online" instead. I actually purchased my pair a few years back at Best Buy... Easily the best sounding bookshelf speakers at Best Buy when I was there (by a WIDE margin). Regardless, I was responding to the OP's comment that I thought was directed at the Haydn's being somewhat internet direct and I wanted to address that.

Good point! I listened to the Viennas at BestBuy and I did not think they sounded anywhere near as good as the Sierra 1s. The Viennas sounded muddy in the midrange by comparisson, however it could have had a lot to do with what was pushing them and how it was positioned! In my opinion they do not even come close in performance to my B&G Neo3 tweeter/6.5 midwoofer bookshelf speakers from SLS!

coolsax, where are you located? You might get some offers to listen to Ascends or Swans in this thread.

-Max

Unless you are listening to them in the same room at the same time you will never be comparing them.

What you will be able to do is determine at each individual time if you liked the speakers you were listening to in the environment you were listening to them at that time. If two are "really good" then it is unlikely you could say one is better to you or not - if one "blows you away" then that's different.

In the end all that counts is that you buy something you know that you like that you feel comfortable you got for a good price - then enjoy

I had Dynaudio Focus 140s before buying the Sierra-1s. I feel that the Sierras have similar sound qualities to the 140s. Some who have directly compared the Dyns and the Sierra-1s preferred the Sierra-1s. I did not own both speakers at the same time but I did keep the Sierra-1s longer than the 140s.

I would think the Sierras would compare very well to the Excite 12s. I agree with Rick in that it would be very hard to do a proper comparison unless you had both the Sierras and the Excite 12s in the same room.

Here are links to a few reviews of the Sierra-1. In both reviews the Focus 110s and 140s were mentioned for comparison purposes.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...c_sierra_1.htm

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi/20070901.htm

Bill

Rick if you could explain about the trade in program when the new floorstanding models come out, I would appreciate it! I think a heard somewhere if I purchased the recertified Sierras I would be able to apply that to and upgrade of the Towers, Am I saying that correctly? I do sit far-field so I think the new Tower models would suit me better, however that all depends on cost? I could always use my multiple subwoofers and stay with a smaller speaker for budget reasons. How does the new Sierra compare to the Swan 2.1SE Custom? I have heard this to be a great speaker and any crossover modification from Sean or Danny has to sound great. It also leaves me wondering about the T.L. Version of Seans N2x reference speaker, although I have not heard any of these speakers, I'd like some input if any of you have listened to them?

The upgrade program is not for Sierras to Towers, but for Sierra-1 to the Sierra NrT. The NrT is the same physical dimensions of the Sierra-1, but with a new tweeter and crossover.

We will have some form of trade-in for our Sierra-1 customers who wish to upgrade to the Towers. No details on this have been finalized though.

Sounds great! Thanks Dave.

Good to know!

^^^ That's for sure! Looks like I will simply just get the towers instead of upgrading my current Sierras.

Just a quick point here, I think everyone else needs to be careful if one assumes that direct sales equals a better deal. Just because there's not a middle-man retailer to make a profit doesn't mean that the designing company doesn't just gobble up the additional margin as profit. Only the truly naive would assume that all of the extra margin is passed on in the form of savings.

Secondly, Patrick indirectly suggests that the retailer approach can be the better business model; and naturally that would imply for both the seller and the buyers (us). One wouldn't need a Ph. D to determine that simply shipping to a select few retailers is cheaper than directly handling the sales to thousands of customers, including the returns from thousands of customers. In other words, I imagine that the overall costs to get it to the customer probably ends up being a wash one way or the other, and thus the "savings" we're supposed to be getting as customers of ID companies is largely a myth.

Finally, it will probably be some time before many of us here forget the lesson learned from av123 regarding the extra risks of not having a large retailer involved in the transaction.

I've always been a little skeptical of this myself when "sales" or "specials" are run. I understand any business is trying to make money, but that sort of refutes the claim of some that the profit margin "is already cut to the bone". I'm not talking about Dave here.


While there will obviously be more paperwork for the shipping forms involved for direct customer delivery, the actual volume of boxes going out would likely be about the same. Besides, I expect having returns from thousands of customers would be a wonderful problem that any of these ID companies would absolutely love to have to deal with.


True, but that was an exception that likely will never happen again. Besides, if an B&M brand fails, you really think that all dealers are going to cover all issues on their own?

If you understand the cost of parts, assembly, marketing, support, etc., you can better gauge the value of the ID and B&M business models in general, but there are obviously some in each case that are better values than others.

The bottomline is the value to the customer, because the customer is not going to buy the product if he/she believes value isn't there.

I'm sure what would have been the middle-man/retailer cut goes a lot of places. Some ID manufacturers are going to pocket the difference. Others are going to go after market share by using that savings to fund better components and build reputation. Still others are going to go after market share with rock bottom prices. Those that want to survive are going to plow the difference into producing a better than B&M product for a given price and better service and the rest will fall by the wayside.

You're also assuming that B&M manufacturers aren't operating at high per unit profit margins - especially prestige brands. That's why they insist on minimum advertised prices - to give themselves the prestige of costing more than they are really worth in a free market. Demanding high retail prices also supports the demands of the distributor and retailers with show rooms and staff to pay for.

Really without pricing out the drivers and crossovers and cabinetry costs it's just guessing to say someone may or may not be providing a better value. I have no idea what Ascend's costs are but at least one custom ID is rumored to spend 40% of their retail price on components - drivers, cabinet materials, etc. With another 40% going to labor including very fine cabinetry and finishes, leaving 20% for overhead and profits. Contrasting that we can look at B&M brands blowing out previous years models for 30-50% of MSRP to give a good idea of the actual production costs of some B&M companies.

That's just business 101.

I don't know what it is now, but at one point, the mark-up for non-sale speakers at Best Buy was 50-60%.

Also, the now discontinued Von Schweikert VR-1 bookshelf sold usually for right around $1K/pr. When VS discontinued the model, and went to their new business model and had online sales(which looks like the switched back), my local dealer said his cost was $400/pr.

I think you really need to find peace with your purchase. If you are happy with the way it sounds, then be happy and don't look back and second-guess yourself about the price... Just look forward to the next upgrade.

Or do your best to fight the upgradeitis disease.

Now that's silly.. resistance is futile.