Media Servers worthy of high end - Page 17

Well, you suggested it .
We must be having trouble communicating. I have the issue because I *am* using the PC as my main entertainment center. It is my DVR, and my BD/HD DVD player. It also plays my music, displays my photos and I stream content using it. So not sure why you say it is not for me. I know this box inside out. I also happen to have access to the competing solution from K and I am saying that the latter zeros out hassle that even I, with all of my knowledge and abilities sometimes just don't want to mess with it. I only shared one problem out of many. Another example is media center crashing on powering down the display an AVR. Recently I also got a blu-screen. This is a completely stock Win 7 Premium using Core i5 with its internal GPU. It doesn't get more vanilla than this. Yet it is not 100% stable. I wish it was. There is a lot of code in there that came from my old team at Microsoft. But it just isn't. So no, $90 doesn't get you to a K. The multi-purpose system just has more stuff that goes wrong with it.

The limitations with K are a set of features as mentioned. Lack of reliability and predictability does not enter the picture. It matters not how well your PC runs. You can never predict if the one someone else configures works as well. And getting them to work requires so much research as this thread shows. Take a trip to the massive thread in HTPC area on just how to build the storage system. There are opinions all over the place. Then go and shop for hard disks and see the horror stories after horror stories with drive failures. One of the guys in our shop has a large storage array he built that he is using with is Dune. The thing just crashed and it is nor recoverable. He is faced with ripping some of his library again.
I am not telling it is dire. I am simply transparent with what you get with either platform. At CEDIA I was talking to the Dune people. They were using the Videbox video server with their player. I asked them why Vidabox would be supporting them since they had their own PC based players. He said that was the reason! That their clients are simply not reliable enough so they are looking at promoting the server with likes of Dune as clients.

And no, it is not a matter of being persistent. No one is allowed to get a license to build a BD server. K is the only company who has done it and deep in litigation over it. As such, don't expect any high-power, polished entity to enter this market. Freeware, tiny companies, etc. are your only bet and the results are what we see. On this point, remember that K is using a playback AACS license. This means that it can decrypt any disc. Not so with these other servers which use some other means for decryption. When that code is changed, then you may be out of the option to rip content until they crack the new mechanism.

Is K's license different from licenses other blu-ray players use (like Dune, or Oppo)? I thought their loop-hole was just exploiting existing rules in whatever standard blu-ray license agreement was already there (disc contents can be in a cache as long as the disc is present).

I can sympathize with the perils of PC based clients, but IMO, I seem to have much better luck. Not sure if it's because I use Linux, and I seem to have far more control over what's going on, or if there's a another factor. I have a client/server setup with server handling all ripped media and all DVR duties (this is the Myth "back-end"). I also have two PC based clients (Myth "front-ends"). In the last year they have been rebooted maybe 5 times each. That's more than I'd like, but not that bad, IMO. I would still agree that PC based clients are not the right way, however, all servers will likely be PC based for quite a while (I imagine K's is).

I do think we are entering a potential shift for home brew clients. This shift is away from PCs and towards SoC bases systems. There are more and more open client platforms coming out which cost under $200, have SoC, have graphics designed for video, are silent, small, and use little power. Check out the PandaBoard, or the CuBox. Or just check out the number of devices Plex or XBMC can now run on. I am very much hoping there is growth in these open, cheap, and hopefully reliable SoC systems.

I suggested it because you have an EDID problem. When that happens and you have $90 to spare, you get an HDMI Detective.

I said "may not be right", this is different than "not for". I understand that you currently use a HTPC, but that doesn't mean it's the right (i.e. ideal or perfect) solution for you, just that it happens to be what's in the stack currently.

WMC is a FSE application, when you take the display away (what happens if you power down the AVR and CEC isn't enabled) the result can be unexpected. Obviously this is less than ideal, but again since it's an EDID problem there is an easy, $90, fix available.

Nothing is 100% stable, but that said your HTPC shouldn't BSOD either. If that happens better components and/or cooling should make it go away - I haven't had a BSOD on a production system in years.

Context is important. I didn't say that you could get a "K" for $90, just that you can fix many EDID problems (specifically the one you mentioned) for that amount.

Nothing is w/o compromise. In this case flexibility isn't free.

The world is full of opinions, most of them are wrong .

HD's fail, they will fail in any system irregardless of cost. If you DIY a bad system w/o redundancy it's hardly unexpected that if you run the scenario long enough entropy will bite you.

hmm... the previous statements don't seem to gel w/ this assertion

To quote one of my reviews:

As anyone who has followed this thread is aware, I like Dune players. They provide much of the flexibility that a HTPC provides while removing much of the pain around stability. That said, they are not w/o compromise. My desire in all of this is to provide a balanced perspective. I would have been just as quick to point out an easy solution had you raised one with a CE player.

I was speaking to a different topic (i.e. HTPC stability) when I stated that, but it probably carries over here as well. At some point in the future we will move beyond BD, it's not hard to imagine in a world with ample bandwidth where a service like VUDU would make much of this discussion irrelevant.

That's correct and it was the point I was making. The contrast is with other BD *server* solutions which rely on Slysoft, etc. to bypass the copy protection to rip the content. The cat and mouse game between AACS+Rovi and them means at times you will find your video server unable to properly rip a Blu-ray disc.

Just so we are clear on the K vault. This is what I was told. The BR movie is stored on the server and never even looks at the vault once the movie is loaded in the vault. The vault is not searched for the movie. The server knows then the vault loads a BR and when the BR is ejected. The movie plays instantly once selected. And of course once it gets ejected, you cannot play the movie that is on the server until you place it back in the vault. This vault was required to be in compliance with the law.

With that said... very very soon.. like this year soon, BR movies can be downloaded from the Kstore. The vault will not be required for these downloaded BR movies. So if the vault is what is keeping anyone from getting started with K. now is the time.

Got any more info on that (I did a quick search didn't find much more than you posted), mainly I want to be very clear on what they mean by "Blu-ray" can be downloaded. Are we talking 1080p like Vudu HDX, or are we talking full BD bitrate and lossless audio? Or are we talking potential for DCI gamut? 10bit color?

Not sure I follow that, wouldn't these make you less likely to need/buy/want a vault?

Of course there's one more (potential) issue. If I buy a BD, it's mine, I can take it with me and play on many devices. If I buy a "Blu-ray download" from K store, do I get a physical copy too? Is it usable on anything else? Can I download it again later if I do something with it, etc...

They are talking full BD bitrate and lossless audio. No need for vault with Download store content. Last questions about physical copies and ownership rights have not been answered

yet and a big yet!! I think everyone is going to be very happy with what is coming

Scott,

So how's the Dune treating you? It looks like the Echo is not going to be what we (I) were hoping it would be, so I'm sort of back to looking again, so I took a look at the Dune hardware again and the HD Max looks sort of interesting since it could double as my BD player and I wouldn't be end up with another box.

But don't the new Oppos not support network ISO (or BDMV folder) playback and don't they have Cinavia which would basically make playing (some) ripped BDs impossible? Seems like a cool idea, but seems like building it on the Oppo is not a viable medium term strategy.

I've almost got myself convinced a Kscape is the solution but I just can't get past $1k per disk.

Scott

Why is it that oppo 93 could stream iso bluray (prior to firmware disabling) source direct and no other network players have been able to enable this feature

Scott
My question was concerning source direct and why oppo can do it yet other network players can't,sorry I was not clearer

As far as I can tell it's just motivation/interest on the developer's part. SageTV's HD300 had a Sigma 8654 (HD100 was the 8623L and the HD200 was the 8635), looks like the Dune BD Prime 3 used the 8642, and SageTV managed to get native output switching working on those, while Dune hasn't on theirs.

Could be, but at least you're not stuck with the Sigma's deinterlacing.

I don't follow you regarding the $1K/disk?

He most likely means $1K per disk cartridge

Yeah, I mean I understand the exceptional level of support they offer and the benefits of their testing, but I can fill (well half fill) my unRAID server for the same cost as 1 K disc, with the same sized discs as that one K disc.

I own K system and I have said for long time that the hard drives are over priced. But its low volume high margin business model, so I cant blame the company. And they are not as overpriced as you may think at first glance. They use enterprise hard drives and if you check the prices of highest quality enterprise driives , rest assured you wont be able to fill anywhere close to half of unraid ( I have unraid as well). Now thats a different argument , that I dont use enterprise drives in my unraid and I havent had any drive failure in 5 years , maybe I just got lucky..

From what I can tell (a quick search) enterprise drives are only like $100-150 more than consumer drives, not $800-850 more.

FWIW, the 3TB WD Red drives (designed for NAS use) run about $180-200, a 3TB WD RE enterprise drive runs about $300-330. The only price I can find for the 3TB cartridges is $1695, $1395 + $300 flood surcharge. Seems like K is basically charging $1000 for validation.

The flood surcharge has been gone for several months. And you can email couple of few AVS forum members who are K delaers who will give you good price on the system, drives etc. .
Here is an enterprise drive with $599 MSRP

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148757

There are several of them with MSRP in 400-500's. So yes you will end up paying 2x-3x, whatever the street price of different enterprise drives is . There is no way around it. I wish there was too, but it is what it is. But good enterprise drives are not as cheap as you think. I personally dont use enterprise drives in any of the PC's I make or in my unraid as I have triple redundancy for my data/music files/pics etc. So i can change the drive for $100 if it fails. But with K you dont have a choice. All things said , I love K after shelling out the initial $$

Yup, I know it is what it is. Guess my only point, to K or any dealers who have probably already passed the same sentiment up to K is that the drive costs make their system a non starter for me. I mean I'm about at the point where I can see the value in a $2k player or a server, but the drive costs are just a showstopper for me.

A similar situation exists with CCTV. Avigilon are a top contender for IP HD security cameras. I had the demo and much like K, the Avigilon hardware and above all software interface is very slick. I could see the value immediately in their system but naturally as I added cameras to the system design and thus increased the storage capacity requirements the system cost crept up. The Avigilon server itself is an enterprise unit and (I'd assume) has enterprise drives, but the difference in cost between say a 5TB server and 10TB model is about an extra £1800. I don't know if there are changes beyond adding extra disks but it seemed quite steep at first glance.

As storage in generally is much cheaper these days, like you, I do struggle to accept the costs on this basis.

I use the Dune and have 100% reliability. But then, I don't feed it via network. I have a 4 disc HDD enclosure connected via USB. Rather than run a RAID setup, I just backup all my media one for one on another enclosure. Simple, and 100% reliable. When I have a HDD failure, I'll just make a copy of one of the backup HDDs and stick it in the enclosure. I tried the network route, but almost all networks will have the occasional "burp". When that happens, your movie has a "burp". Some are OK with that and ignore it. Some throw huge dollars and effort to make a "perfect" network. I just plug in a USB drive and get completely reliable playback with no "burps". I want to watch movies and not deal with network issues. When I'm not watching movies the HDDs are completely depowered resulting in far longer HDD life. To transfer movies I've ripped, I just hit one button on the enclosure switching it from USB to esata. The esata connection is to a PC so transfers and backups are quick and easy. Easy, simple, cheap, and reliable. The ONLY limitation is that the HDD aren't available to other media players via network, but that's OK with me. Storage is cheap enough that I'd rather have multiple local storage than network my media. I spent plenty on my home theater, I expect flawless playback. One small stutter while watching a movie is not acceptable to me, and network playback of BD content is going to occasionally have such a stutter. Not for everyone certainly, but if you're not a networking whiz kid you have to ask yourself: Do you want to watch movies, or do you want to screw around with your network?

Yes, I wish the Dune passed the video unmolested. However, playback really is excellent.

Regarding Disk cost I hope this helps somebody.

I am a SAN engineer and deal with customers all the time complaining of disk/storage cost compared to off the shelf disks. I would say 80% of the time when they have decided to go with a cheaper solution (comsumer NAS products or arrays) it has ended badly and cost more money in the long run and ended up buying the recommend solution anyway. Yes you can make your own SAN or media array but it is not a turnkey solution and is not supported the same way. This is a tradeoff. I know it sounds like a lot to pay $1k for a disk but in the industry I would say that is actually lower than most of the SATA SAN disks out there. Right now the cost is around $1-2k per TB disk and can reach $3-4k per magnetic disk if added later for the 3-4tb disks. SSD's can be much higher per disk than this reaching $10k per disk, and we are only talking about 250-500gb here!

If the disks were market price then the head units would cost far more, probably double or higher and then they would hit you with increased license costs to offset the revenue.