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JVC 2011 X3/X5/X7 RS40/50/60 Frame Interpolation still broken?... - Page 2

post #31 of 66
10/25/10 at 7:03am
Getting touchy, are we boys?

We, the people, we the people got JVC to fix their CMS, now that was indeed broken, and we the people, actually just a very very special few (yuk, yuk) , got JVC to fix their lens and make it better. It had improper coatings on it and wasn`t really sharp. JVC does in fact listen to the people when it can especially if the people make lots of detrimental noise. Sometimes they listen to one very polite squeeky voice.

Rdjam. You say you love JVC and it pains you to be harsh. Let me clearly give you some advice and if you can`t follow it then perhaps you shouldn`t be posting anywhere.

Put the pain out of your mind. Every time one loves, there will be pain. Goes with the territory but you must ignore it, you must not feel it, you must be oblivious to it.

Doubt me? Why do you think they say Feel the love, man. They don`t say feel the pain, man.

Now this clearly isn`t a love fest. I agree with Fat Dave here. And you insist on distinguishing between one implementation of FI as being fixed and another as being broken. It is disrespectful when a person of your intelligence refuses to recognize that broken is not the same as not being very well implemented.

Personally, I do not think any implementation of FI works that well. Some are clearly better than others. But I see artifacts with every one I have seen. Including the Panasonics. They all kinda suck, some just suck less. Some might say I am being harsh to you, but it pains me not. Feel the love.
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post #32 of 66
10/25/10 at 7:10am
Thread Starter 
Yowch!

Yes - I suppose I am getting very wound up about this Mark, but I'll definitely take the advice!

It's going to be a long month till these arrive... sigh...
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post #33 of 66
10/25/10 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Getting touchy, are we boys?

We, the people, we the people got JVC to fix their CMS, now that was indeed broken, and we the people, actually just a very very special few (yuk, yuk) , got JVC to fix their lens and make it better. It had improper coatings on it and wasn`t really sharp. JVC does in fact listen to the people when it can especially if the people make lots of detrimental noise. Sometimes they listen to one very polite squeeky voice.

Rdjam. You say you love JVC and it pains you to be harsh. Let me clearly give you some advice and if you can`t follow it then perhaps you shouldn`t be posting anywhere.

Put the pain out of your mind. Every time one loves, there will be pain. Goes with the territory but you must ignore it, you must not feel it, you must be oblivious to it.

Doubt me? Why do you think they say Feel the love, man. They don`t say feel the pain, man.

Now this clearly isn`t a love fest. I agree with Fat Dave here. And you insist on distinguishing between one implementation of FI as being fixed and another as being broken. It is disrespectful when a person of your intelligence refuses to recognize that broken is not the same as not being very well implemented.

Personally, I do not think any implementation of FI works that well. Some are clearly better than others. But I see artifacts with every one I have seen. Including the Panasonics. They all kinda suck, some just suck less. Some might say I am being harsh to you, but it pains me not. Feel the love.

I think we can put the FI issue to rest by simply stating that we hope that JVC can somehow muster up the means to implement an FI system that works "as well" as Panasonics... One would not like to believe that Panasonic could "best" the almighty JVC....
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post #34 of 66
10/26/10 at 1:42pm
I know for a fact that it isn't not broken not fixed and working not.
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post #35 of 66
10/26/10 at 4:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Getting touchy, are we boys?

We, the people, we the people got JVC to fix their CMS, now that was indeed broken, and we the people, actually just a very very special few (yuk, yuk) , got JVC to fix their lens and make it better. It had improper coatings on it and wasn`t really sharp. JVC does in fact listen to the people when it can especially if the people make lots of detrimental noise. Sometimes they listen to one very polite squeeky voice.

Rdjam. You say you love JVC and it pains you to be harsh. Let me clearly give you some advice and if you can`t follow it then perhaps you shouldn`t be posting anywhere.

Put the pain out of your mind. Every time one loves, there will be pain. Goes with the territory but you must ignore it, you must not feel it, you must be oblivious to it.

Doubt me? Why do you think they say Feel the love, man. They don`t say feel the pain, man.

Now this clearly isn`t a love fest. I agree with Fat Dave here. And you insist on distinguishing between one implementation of FI as being fixed and another as being broken. It is disrespectful when a person of your intelligence refuses to recognize that broken is not the same as not being very well implemented.

Personally, I do not think any implementation of FI works that well. Some are clearly better than others. But I see artifacts with every one I have seen. Including the Panasonics. They all kinda suck, some just suck less. Some might say I am being harsh to you, but it pains me not. Feel the love.

Are you sure you're not Dr. Phil? I.E. putting all the love in the right places......................
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post #36 of 66
10/26/10 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I know for a fact that it isn't not broken not fixed and working not.

lol!
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post #37 of 66
11/1/10 at 2:36pm
Also very interested in the early impressions people have on motion handling on the new devices. Once one of us or one of them gets our or their hands on him, her, or it... please comment on how well it does on motion. RS40 is of particular interest.
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post #38 of 66
11/2/10 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

I know for a fact that it isn't not broken not fixed and working not.

Getting rid of the double negatives, you just said it`s broken, fixed, and working.


So that means that they fixed it somewhat, its still has problems, but its working.

Or do you really mean something else?
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post #39 of 66
11/2/10 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post


Getting rid of the double negatives, you just said it`s broken, fixed, and working.

So that means that they fixed it somewhat, its still has problems, but its working.

Or do you really mean something else?

Didn't you also remove the single negatives as well?

Shouldn't it be it's broken,not fixed and working not?
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post #40 of 66
11/2/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by velvetpoet View Post

Didn't you also remove the single negatives as well?

Shouldn't it be it's broken,not fixed and working not?

The isn`t affects all three nots. It isn`t not broken, it isn`t not fixed, it isn`t not working. Though you may be correct as to what Jason actually meant but he would be unlikely for him to call JVCs FI broken, not fixed, and not working.
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post #41 of 66
11/2/10 at 9:24pm
Thread Starter 


Isn't not broken = broken
not fixed = not fixed
and working not = still not working

But he didn't say it was broken, as he was just joshing around anyway.

But it shor looks like it ain't fixed for 2011...

One will reserve "final" judgement for the released models...
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post #42 of 66
11/3/10 at 1:54pm
Rdjam its a structural issue of English grammer and the use of commas.

The isn`t operates on all three, not only on the first of the group of three.
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post #43 of 66
11/4/10 at 6:09am
The Epson projectors have FI and it works very well now (not so for the 6500 and 7500, but the lowest setting was updated and fixed). I only used it for animated features (FI on high and super resolution on high = jaw dropping) and concerts filmed live. It gives a sense of depth and realism that can be uncanny. I don't use it for regular movies. If the 3D works well for the JVCs I don't think I'd even use FI anymore or particularly miss it as more 3D content becomes available. I'll probably wait for a 1080p 3D solution from Epson or Panasonic anyway. I'm currently setting up a 720p very cheap 3D system using an Acer projector and PC with Nvidia vision glasses (waiting for the glasses to arrive).
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post #44 of 66
11/4/10 at 7:44pm
Thread Starter 
Agreed, Deja - It really can make a big difference.

Mark - the fact is, it needs to be fixed on the JVC units.

There's no arguing around this - it doesn't work on Bluray content, and other manufacturers DO..

Further JVC has managed to get it right on video content, with no artifacts discernable at all...

It's broke - it doesn't work properly - doesn't matter how we say it - it needs work. I feel they should have taken it seriously for this year. Maybe they thought it wasn't a big deal to buyers because not enough of a stink was raised last year, the pressure was too subtle?

Anyway - yes, because I like JVC a lot, I'd be pissed at me making a big deal about this too, but someone's gotta do it I guess.

Whether I buy it or not this year, it still can and should be "improved", if that's a better word.
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post #45 of 66
11/5/10 at 12:15am
Making fun of it or not, the issue is the word "broken". The FI si not "broken", it's just... bad. It doesn't need to be "fixed", it needs to be improved (well, personally, I'd say it needs to be removed, but hey...) There's a big difference between "broken" and "bad". Somehow, because it's JVC and hey, JVC's are fantastic, right? - some people seem to believe that it's impossible that some area of performance could actually be quite poor (even though several areas of performance have in fact proved to be poor on several models - color performance not least). So, please stop calling it broken, and accept that JVC just has a poor FI implementation. As the above poster mentions, if you want good FI, buy a Panasonic, and accept that you will get lower performance in other areas. You can't have everything.
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post #46 of 66
11/5/10 at 5:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto J View Post

You can't have everything.

Ahh, but I disagree!

You're right on the terminology issue, of course. Many people will regard the FI performance in different way. Some will think it just "sucks". Some will expect that it should have been better and view it as "broken". I fall in the latter category.

The JVCs excel in most other areas, but frankly, if they "remove" this feature, instead of rectifying the issues, I would immediately find another brand to become attached to.
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post #47 of 66
11/5/10 at 5:57am
Rdjam. Why don`t you just boycott Hollywood and all its products until they shoot at 48fps?
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post #48 of 66
11/5/10 at 7:37am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Rdjam. Why don`t you just boycott Hollywood and all its products until they shoot at 48fps?

I can DO that?!? lol

Don't misunderstand, I'm not boycotting JVC. Still love their projectors, but would really like them to get this resolved on the next pass, if not this year.

We are allowed to talk about it, right?
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post #49 of 66
11/5/10 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Rdjam its a structural issue of English grammer and the use of commas.

The isn`t operates on all three, not only on the first of the group of three.

I have no stance on this FI issue since I have not seen the old nor the new and I don't know enough about the process. However, Jason's post contained no commas so the "isn't" would actually only apply to "isn't not broken" leaving "not fixed" and "working not" to be as is. Now, I am off to research exactly what this FI is/does and why someone would/wouldn't want it.

-Sean
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post #50 of 66
11/5/10 at 11:37am
You are right. It doesn`t contain commas. Mea Culpa. But it does contain a verb and if you apply the verb to only the first item, there is no sentence so the verb has to be applied to all three, there is no other choice here.

And Rdjam. Repeat after me.

For harmony, I agree that use of the word broken is not correct, I see your valid point, and so that we all can move on and address this issue I will hereinafter say needs to be improved.

You can do that for me and us, can`t you without compromising your principles and objectives?
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post #51 of 66
11/5/10 at 11:43am
Sooooo....I´ve just returned from a presentation of the X7. 2d looks really good, although the black level is still not where I would like it to be - maybe still an order of magnitude off till it is no longer an issue (an order of magnitude being - in the language of perturbation theory - a factor of 10 or so). But....the FI....noticed a bad artifact when watching Avatar 2d at about 49:50 with a real weird behavior of the "lamellar" lights in the background (don´t know how to call them properly), I don´t know for sure but I think with FI setting 3. Just checked it, on my Kuro plasma, there is no such artifact. I also watched Avatar on an Epson 2000 where I couldn´t find any flaws of the FI, although I unfortunately didn´t watch this particular scene on it.

Can anybody with access to this projector confirm this artifact? In case yes, this could be a real dealbraker.....
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post #52 of 66
11/5/10 at 12:01pm
Something will always generate an artifact that something else won`t generate. Lots of artifacts are just not observed by some. Its a shame that a particular artifact for a specific instance becomes a deal breaker but each has their own priorities.

Many will buy a JVC despite there being for them a better choice to match some given set of priorities and then again priorities may change over time. In the past, my priority has been perceived sharpness and DLPs better serve that priority for me. That may change when I spend time with a production JVC.
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post #53 of 66
11/5/10 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

You are right. It doesn`t contain commas. Mea Culpa. But it does contain a verb and if you apply the verb to only the first item, there is no sentence so the verb has to be applied to all three, there is no other choice here.

AnRdjam. Repeat after me.

For harmony, I agree that use of the word broken is not correct, I see your valid point, and so that we all can move on and address this issue I will hereinafter say needs to be improved.

You can do that for me and us, can`t you without compromising your principles and objectives?

Is it odd that I find the discussion of removing a verb from a sentence that was meant as a joke more interesting then FI issues?

I agree with Mark.

It would be the same if I said. I'm not hungry, tired or sick. Not applies to all 3.
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post #54 of 66
11/5/10 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kottan View Post

Sooooo....I´ve just returned from a presentation of the X7. 2d looks really good, although the black level is still not where I would like it to be - maybe still an order of magnitude off till it is no longer an issue (an order of magnitude being - in the language of perturbation theory - a factor of 10 or so). But....the FI....noticed a bad artifact when watching Avatar 2d at about 49:50 with a real weird behavior of the "lamellar" lights in the background (don´t know how to call them properly), I don´t know for sure but I think with FI setting 3. Just checked it, on my Kuro plasma, there is no such artifact. I also watched Avatar on an Epson 2000 where I couldn´t find any flaws of the FI, although I unfortunately didn´t watch this particular scene on it.

Can anybody with access to this projector confirm this artifact? In case yes, this could be a real dealbraker.....

If you aren't satisfied with the blacks of the JVCs, then your only option for better is a Sony G90 CRT with ability for exponential gamma to avoid crushing blacks (much smaller screen size though). No Digital Display can better the high-end JVCs for absolute blacks, not even your Kuro.

Just curious, where did you see the X7, its hasn't even shipped to anyone in the USA as far as I know?
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post #55 of 66
11/5/10 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kottan View Post

Sooooo....I´ve just returned from a presentation of the X7. 2d looks really good, although the black level is still not where I would like it to be - maybe still an order of magnitude off till it is no longer an issue (an order of magnitude being - in the language of perturbation theory - a factor of 10 or so). But....the FI....noticed a bad artifact when watching Avatar 2d at about 49:50 with a real weird behavior of the "lamellar" lights in the background (don´t know how to call them properly), I don´t know for sure but I think with FI setting 3. Just checked it, on my Kuro plasma, there is no such artifact. I also watched Avatar on an Epson 2000 where I couldn´t find any flaws of the FI, although I unfortunately didn´t watch this particular scene on it.

Can anybody with access to this projector confirm this artifact? In case yes, this could be a real dealbraker.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post

If you aren't satisfied with the blacks of the JVCs, then your only option for better is a Sony G90 CRT with ability for exponential gamma to avoid crushing blacks (much smaller screen size though). No Digital Display can better the high-end JVCs for absolute blacks, not even your Kuro.

Just curious, where did you see the X7, its hasn't even shipped to anyone in the USA as far as I know?

I assume you are after black levels that truly give the movie theater experience since that was clearly what the director intended. So all you need to do is raise the black levels by a factor of 10 (or more) to reduce the contrast ratio to around 2000:1 since that's the best you will typically find in a commercial movie theather. Problem solved (lol).
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post #56 of 66
11/5/10 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xavier1 View Post

If you aren't satisfied with the blacks of the JVCs, then your only option for better is a Sony G90 CRT with ability for exponential gamma to avoid crushing blacks (much smaller screen size though).

I'm using a gamma corrected Sony G90 (along with a couple of digital projectors) with a 120" HP screen and I get the best of many worlds - infinite on/off CR, large screen, punchy bright image. The G90 is about to be left out in the cold with more 3D content hitting the scene. A great projector, but technology moves on. I'll keep it for special dark sci-fi movies, but it's getting used less and less.

With respect to JVC and FI - Epson had initial problems and addressed some of them the best it could in the 6500/7500 model and reworked it completely in the following model (8500/9500) with much success. JVC can and should fix this!
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post #57 of 66
11/5/10 at 11:32pm
The fix is in. They can`t fix it if it isn`t broken. They could make it better.
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post #58 of 66
11/6/10 at 2:53am
Quote:


Just curious, where did you see the X7, its hasn't even shipped to anyone in the USA as far as I know?

At a public demo here in Austria, Europe...

Quote:


I assume you are after black levels that truly give the movie theater experience since that was clearly what the director intended. So all you need to do is raise the black levels by a factor of 10 (or more) to reduce the contrast ratio to around 2000:1 since that's the best you will typically find in a commercial movie theather. Problem solved (lol).

I am after black levels everybody is familiar with in real life (it´s dark at night outside) and I don´t care about limitations of movie theaters that somehow distract me from a real immersive experience. Maybe I was just expecting too much based on some comments on projector performance progress (Just had one projector so far that is no longer in use, Benq 8700+.....)
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post #59 of 66
11/6/10 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kottan View Post

I am after black levels everybody is familiar with in real life (it´s dark at night outside) and I don´t care about limitations of movie theaters that somehow distract me from a real immersive experience. Maybe I was just expecting too much based on some comments on projector performance progress (Just had one projector so far that is no longer in use, Benq 8700+.....)

Specs don't always translate well into real world performance. Going from say 10 000:1 on/off to 100 000:1 is a significant improvement, but it isn't anywhere close to as much as the numbers suggest. Especially if you don't compare side-by-side. Blacks will look a bit less grey in dark scenes, but that's about it. You'd probably need several millions:1 before blacks would look pitch black.
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post #60 of 66
11/6/10 at 2:01pm
some FI impressions from the X7.........

Clear Motion Drive, then. I've never been a fan of interpolation for film-sourced 24p content. Sahara Blu-ray has long been my go-to disc for motion resolution and stutter testing with its fantastic title sequence, and it gave the X7 a good workout. CMD Modes 1 and 2 insert black frames, and the resulting flicker is painful to watch. (On certain content, like the motion resolution test clips on the Japanese FPD Benchmark disc, Modes 1 and 2 do not produce a flickering effect.) Mode 3 and 4 offer straightforward interpolation without black frame insertion. Mode 3 is the "weaker" one of the two, and I can well imagine watching an entire movie with Mode 3 enabled. There's still some evidence of the speeded up video-like effect, but it's bearable. There's also Inverse Telecine option for building original 24 frames out of 60i/60p content.

All four interpolation modes create some color separation in horizontally moving objects that looks very much like misconvergence. Light objects moving on dark background tend to have a green leading edge and a red trailing edge. Dark objects on light background tend to leave a greenish ghost image behind them. The amount and behaviour of the color separation varies with interpolation mode and content format (film/video source).



http://www.avforums.com/forums/proje...2010-a-11.html
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