TotalMedia Theatre 5 - Page 51

As suggested by ArcSoft_Jason I tried changing the Mixing Mode setting to "Mix to PCM uncompressed audio" from "Original Primary Audio" and this appears to have resolved the issue (click for high resolution image):



And here is a photo of my Denon amp showing "MULTI CH IN" just to prove this change had the desired outcome:


Thank you ArcSoft_Jason for your advice.

James

HTPC will always be more complex and finicky than a standalone player.

When everything is working perfectly, playing a Blu/DVD from disc will be really simple. But HTPCs are frequently not perfect. And even at their simplest, say with Media Center on by default or something, there are still more quirks than a standalone.

(That's all regardless of player in my experience.)

If you're staying exclusively disc-based, and simplicity is the priority, it's hard to make the argument that HTPC is the better choice for you. Perhaps you have other desires that would push things toward HTPC, but I don't see it in what you wrote.

No, I have other needs, particularly streaming media and PVR, for which I want an HTPC, but I do want to be able to play disks as well. I don't anticipate the desire (at least in the near future) to rip disks to the HTPC or a server. For the amount of time that would take, and the few times we actually re-watch a disk, popping in the disk is the easier, less time-consuming, approach for us.

So I do intend to build an HTPC. I just want to know how difficult it is to play disks in it.

Why in the world can it be that difficult? There appears to be a grand total of three commercial software packages available for playing Blu Ray disks on a PC. Are all three really that bad?

One thing with htpc bd disc player players is that

One thing with htpc bd disc players(tmt) is that they are usually quicker load times, even the fastest stand alone isn't as quick.

It's because you don't understand the complexity behind BD playback. Here's what you need to understand:

-3 video codecs
-6 audio formats
-BD Java implementation
-BDMV implementation
-complex menu system
-Numerous copy protection schemes involving encryption, anti-debugging techniques, and various other crap

That's JUST to play the disc. Now, add multiple operating systems, multiple graphics and audio hardware, buggy drivers, etc to the mix. Suddenly the "it can't be that hard to get perfect playback on an HTPC" seems like a pipedream, yes? Fortunately, given all that complexity, the 3 major players do a fairly decent job at it. Perfect? No. But damn good IMO.

No their really not that bad(as long as you don't tweak). It's fairly easy and simple to have a hassle free experience with a htpc. Just set it up, get it working how you want it, and leave it alone and you should be fine.(easier said than done) The constant tweaking and striving to have the best, most current up to date stuff, and not being satisfied is what will get you.

stand-alone players have their fare share of issue too; long load times, constant fw upgrades, new copy protection schemas, BD live issues and so forth. That's why I'm a proponent of two devices, HTPC and stand-alone player. When you want to watch a movie hopefully at least one of them will be able to play the darn disc!

/Anders

And how are any of those items any different than what CE players have to do?

And the PC software generally do not have to deal with "mutiple operating systems." They work with Windows. And they specify the CPUs and GPUs with which they claim to work.

Yes, I understand that software conflicts and non-compatible hardware introduces complications. It can to any software. But why shouldn't it work painlessly on a clean, new, simple, PC running W7 HP? "Because it's hard" doesn't really seem like a reasonable excuse.

They aren't bad, though each has their quirks but that's true of most software across any category and most complex products in general. Playback on the PC is a challenge. It's decidedly not simple, and has to deal with a variety of things CE devices don't. Obviously, I think TMT is a good product, but there are clearly areas where we have trouble and areas we lag the competition. There are also elements we can be proud of.

And everything I've said is for the most part unrelated to Blu playback in general. You'll have issues on HTPCs with your other desired media playback uses too even if you decide to go with hardware for Blu.

HTPCs are tricky. Like hot-rods vs a Toyota Corolla. They tend to NOT be plug and play. In the "it's always something" vein. When the hot-rot is firing on all cylinders it's awesome, but it ain't as relibable as the Corolla if you're driving cross country.

Security is different on PCs vs hardware because hardware doesn't have the obvious challenge of introducing other software into the device to circumvent security.

Hardware players don't have to have overhead for other elements running at the same time.

Hardware players have a single clock that controls both audio and video while PCs have seperate clocks that are almost never absolutely in sync with each other.

Hardware players don't have to deal with other vendors changing or breaking a critical element the playback software uses.


XP is fundamentally different from Vista and W7. And the feature-sets of Vista and W7 vary regarding media playback. And there are 32-bit and 64-bit variations that are more than just window-dressing. Driver support for hardware also varies between the 3 major graphics driver vendors. As you start multiplying out all the potential combinations, you quickly hit the point where you can't get enough QA coverage vs what is required for a hardware player which is, for all intents, a static environment that PC QA teams can only dream about.


It can be. I set up machine all the time that have no trouble. But eventually "it's always something" creeps in some night when you just want to sit down and watch a movie. And in my experience, it's more frequently problematic than hardware players which are for the most part bulletproof except for the occasional firmware update to support newer discs due to a fundamental security change (which is ever evolving on Blu.) And the solution is generally bulletproof: you are told you need to update the player--you follow instructions to update the player--the problem goes away. When the HTPC goes awry, often you have no clue what's gone wrong, and often a minimal support net for assistance because the problems are so environment specific.

Well, some of that is self inflicted by the makers. Maybe rather than trying to maximize market, the focus should be on making it actually work with W7. If trying to work with everything is creating a situation where it works really well with nothing, then shorten the list of compatible hardware. Make it actually work really well with a more limited range of hardware and OS. I think you'd find sales would increase rather than shrink.

Jason answered all that for me. Yes, I agree with everything he wrote in that reply. There are a *LOT* of differences between a CE device and a software player. And has been pointed out, don't believe for a SECOND that there are *NO* issues with CE devices. That's a bunch of nonsense. If you believe that, you never tried to play Avatar on one when it first came out. They deal with a lot of the same security issues with protections being updated and requiring firmware updates that software players run into. But the security measures for a PC software are FAR more stringent than a CE device because the CE device is considered "closed" whereas a PC is open and more prone to hacking. And let's say you find a combination of hardware/OS/driver that works perfectly. Are you going to NEVER touch that just to have flawless playback? If you touch ANY of those things, you run the risk of affecting playback; even so much as updating Windows through WU. So, the PC is a moving target for software mfg's. A CE device isn't. It's a known quantity. Much like how game companies love consoles vs developing for PC's.

Sure. Then you want a Xonar card with the OEM version of TMT. It's very specific hardware wise and works quite well. I personally got rid of my Xonar for a more general PC experience.

Hard to say. We certainly prioritize W7 in QA--I'm not part of the QA team but I deal only with W7 at this point for all the generic test systems. But we have OEM customers on all 3 platforms and if we go with the made up number that it's split evenly in thirds you can't just cast off 2/3 of your customers to the wind. Even if they're half that, it's still too much to ignore.

And then, assuming you've nailed it exactly on the head, that remains only one element of the overall issue that makes an open platform like the PC less reliable than a closed platform like a hardware player.

I'm certainly not trying to fearmonger against HTPCs. They aren't a deathtrap and hardware players aren't perfect. HTPCs also account for a chunk of my paycheck so I'm happy when anyone goes that route. I just like people to go in with realistic expectations, and some amount of patience for problem-solving when something eventually goes awry.

Just bring out a TMT6 that can:

1. Properly play mkv files with lossless audio bitstreaming and PGS subtitle support (inc. forced).
2. Support automatic refresh rate changing (and ideally resolution) to match the source file/disc
3. Be able to manage all of this within the WMC plug in as well as the standard player.

Forget 3D, social networking, Youtube or any other fluff. Give me that and I'd be happy with a vanilla Win7+TMT installation and enjoy not worrying about codecs and splitters and filter merits and all that other stuff that makes your head hurt.

About as likely as a formation flypast of Gloucester Old Spots but that's what I'd like.

I second that

basicaly play everything MPC-HC does within WMC
the new PowerDVD11 plays all my files properly so tmt has some catching up to do! ( its rubbish apart from that though )

Never ever buy a "magnavox" ,(the $98 price tag seduced me) wich is actually made by funai. I bought the bluray for a steal a few years ago when bluray players were very expensive. I had so much trouble with that peice of garbage it was ridiculous. Magnavoz was of no help, funai was of no help. Not only did I have a hell of a time tracking down firmware for it, when I did find it it wouldnt work. I finally found some that actually loaded onto the machine but didn't improve playback. I could not get any bluray discs to play on that thing. I think it played a total of about 10 discs successfully, wich when they did start it took around 5 minutes to load. The dvd upconversion was awfull as well. Those who say all standalone bluray players have the same picture quality are very mistaken. So, yeah, CE devices have absolutely no problems whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong here. I wasn't trying to say that all stand alones are junk. Far from it. I think the Oppo players are some of the best you can buy for the money. My PS3 certainly hasn't let me down, either. But to say they're problem free is a bit of a stretch. It's just that their domain is far limited vs that of the domain of a software player. I'd say a majority of time that people have issues with a software player the problem lies outside the realm of the player, and has more to do with the configuration of the machine. As I said before, with multiple OS', buggy drivers, variations in hardware, etc etc, it can be a non-trivial task to figure out where a problem lies. To suggest that software players magically overcome any and all PC problems isn't exactly fair to the software mfg's. They do attempt to do so in limited ways, but, that task is impossible. Personally, I rarely have any trouble with my BD playback on either of my HTPC's. To me, the experience is better than my PS3. But then, I've spent years learning the ins and outs of setting up an HTPC, what settings to use, what not to touch, etc. Some people aren't willing to take the time to learn those things, and that's fine. But, then there may be the occasional issue.

I agree you guys need to focus on function rather than appearance and all the fluff social networking.address all the audio concerns, proper up/down sampling, reclock support, etc. basically the stuff mentioned here. I think if you guys supported hd audio bitstreaming for MKV's you would have a huge increase in sales. Not necessarilly myself, but I think the majority of People are looking for a an all in one way to be able to bitstream in a player inside their media center without having to do any tweaking. As well as tmt integrates nicely w/ wmc wich is one of the most popular media centers. It seems like a no brainer. You give support to the most popular audio codec(bistreated hd audio) for the most popular file format/container,(mkv) in the most popular media center,(arguably wmc) in the most popular way to watch a player(integrated as opposed to external,)and in a way wich is hard to obtain currently, (in a single stand alone player without having to add extra codec packs,)would make it the most popular way to achieve hd audio. Put all those "most populars" together and that equals sales. IMO.

Ok, fine. If you're claiming that a properly configured HTPC won't have any problem playing disks using TMT5, then just tell me what hardware I need, and what other software to avoid, and I'll do it.

I'm not naive. I've built and tweaked enough PCs over the past nearly 30 years. I lived through the eras of DOS and BAT files and IRQ conflicts. I've seen enough BSODs. I know about horrific drivers. And I know that software and hardware can conflict and interfere with the operation of one another. But if one reads this thread or the similar one here on PowerDVD, one would be left with the impression that no matter how simple and straightforward the system, these software programs will only work 50% of the time, at best, and even then only with endless tweaking, workarounds and compromises. (Apparently not enough people even try using WinDVD to warrant discussion.)

Let me reframe my original question. Let's put aside all the conflicting uses and hardware and software. Let me just ask this. If I build a brand new, clean HTPC using the i3-2100's integrated video and audio, with an LG Blu Ray burner, and load no software on it other than W7 HP and TMT5, will it painlessly play a Blu Ray disk in 1080P and HD audio?

That seems to be the least that should be expected from a piece of software. I'll accept that problems I introduce after that point through the addition of other devices and software is my problem.

That is pretty much what my system is, very basic and min software. It has been very reliable and no problems. Only real issue I had was getting the HD audio to bitstream but that is just because Intel wasn't giving a real clear direction of what to instal for drivers. 5 minutes on the AVS boards cleared it up. The only other issue I have is between TMT5 and Media Browser so I still use TMT3. But if you are not ripping to hard drive you don't need Media Browser or other catalog system. If you have Media Center open and put in a BluRay it will automaticly start playing in TMT, very easy. I don't think I would ever do a stand alone after having a HTPC. They can be a hand full some times, but once you get them set up and leave them alone they are solid. Just wish I could get TMT5 stable with Media Browser.

I don't know that combination of hardware, so, I can't speak to that. I run 2 HTPC's of extremely different makeups.

Main HTPC:
C2Q 8400
8 gigs of DDR2 ram
3.5 TB hdd
LG BD writer
AMD 5870

Sony SXRD tv (60Hz only) Pio Elite VSX21-TXH receiver

Bedroom HTPC:
AMD 4200+ X2
6 gigs DDR2
1 TB hdd
nVidia 450

Samsung 40" LCD TV (24Hz supported) and Pio 820-k receiver

All connections from video cards to receiver are HDMI, with the receivers going to the TV's through HDMI, as well. Both machines are running W7 X64 SP1, latest WU, latest RELEASED video drivers (well, I'm running 11.5a on the AMD at the moment). I use AnyDVD HD on both machines as I wouldn't be caught dead without it. TMT5 gives me perfect playback with full bitstreaming on every disc I've thrown at it. I don't worry about stupid protections causing problems in the player because I remove that crap with AnyDVD. Personally I feel no HTPC is complete without it but that's a choice every individual has to make.

Please understand something. I'm not posting this to endorse any particular hardware. I'm posting it to show that for my machines, I have zero problems in playback. I don't go messing with things unless I need to. I have a few settings I "tweak" for each video card, but, that's simply to give me the best video quality and doesn't affect the ABILITY to play things back. To me, both environments are more stable than any CE device, but, that's my PERSONAL experience.

+1 AnyDVD HD is HTPC best friend IMO.

With Latest Sand Bridge, only 2 purpose for my main HTPC.
1) InfiniTV4 replacing my Comcast STB and watch live and recorded TV.
2) TMT5 + AnyDVD HD as my BD/DVD player.

Both 1 + 2 integrate with Media Center nicely and working close to flawlessly.

If you have a vanilla win7 install and use Media Center, does the MKV support in TMT5 allow it to pass through 5.1 via spdif? Could i only install TMT5 and not have codec/splitter hell? i of course would want 5.1 pass through of DVD/Bluray as well..

oh and lastly, does it downmix 7.1 for systems that don't have -hd decoders to standard dd 5.1 or dts 5.1? or do you have to use analog out?

Oh ye of little faith...

I guess we've brought that upon ourselves in many respects as the proof is in the pudding. (Pudding is coming sooner than you expect.)

Anyway, there's an interesting dynamic in the argument between further prioritizing the desires of our core loyal HTPC customer-base and reaching out to different types of customers (with YouTube support for example.) The initial release of TMT5 slacked a bit on the former. I fully understand the "is the upgrade worth it?" posts from HTPC TMT3 users. It's a closer call than it should have been.

How does YouTube support distinguish you or bring any new customers? Heck, my TV does YouTube by itself without any support. My DirecTV receivers now search for and display YouTube content. My Sony Netbox, my my cell phone, and any PC in the house already play YouTubes just fine. Why in the world would I (or anyone else) need or be willing to pay for another YouTube player when I (and everyone else) are already awash in YouTube players? They're even more ubiquitous than Netflix players.

What I (and others) need is software that will let me easily play BD disks on my HTPC. Now there is a market.

So what's the deal with tmt5 and mediabrowser? Is this an isolated problem, or with everybody?

Typically yes. I did exactly that a couple days ago with two SandyBridge systems when hunting down an issue that would not relate to your particular scenario. If this weren't the case, I don't think TMT would have the loyal following it's had--we would have been dismissed as junk from the start.

Now the caveats.

1) Some people say online they have clean SandyBridge systems, and yet report problems we don't see on similar setups here. They're clearly in the minority and often the vast minority, but when you're in the minority or the 1 in 1000 you don't care about everyone else who's fine in the same circumstance--sometimes that leads to even greater frustration.

2) And the other case is sooner or later you'll get a newish Blu disc and it won't play. (The problem disc de jour seems to be Voyage of the Dawn Treader.) It can be unreasably long (I think anything longer than a week is unreasonable in a rental culture) before a fix is available. This is not unique to software players, but it's more prevalent because of the variations in security between software and hardware players. It's just the reality of how Blu is designed and people haven't cared enough to oppose it in mass to this point. If you're willing to invest in AnyDVD, then you can avoid 95% of these issues on an HTPC while hardware players have no recourse at all but waiting.

I don't really know, not everyone has a problem and the problem isn't always there. Some times it will work for a couple of weeks with out isue and then it won't launch any more.

Basically when you try and play a movie the screen goes black like it is launch TMT but then it goes right back to the Media Browser screen and never starts. TMT says it is Media Browsers fault and Media Browser says it is something with TMT. Luckly I still have TMT3 that works perfect, so untill I need 3D support I haven't pushed too hard on the issue hopeing it would correct itself at some point in time.