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Well, I have taken some steps and now I need some help...please :)

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
I purchased 5 of the :

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=276-412

To build my 5 channel theater speaker set.

Everything I read tells me to cross them over no less than 2500Hz

I purchased 20 of the :

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=299-246

Which I am told start to fall apart higher than 250hz

I am looking at building a WWMTMWW speaker both in horizontal for the center channel and Vertical for the other 4.

I understand the logistics of my plan and I appreciate those that say I am insane with my plan lol.

I have a cabinet builder with tons of zest, I plan on using Solen here in Canada to design my 3 way crossovers....BUT

I need a good midrange choice and I need someone to let me know what the best sealed enclosure volume I should use for the woofers (each) I can do the math otherwise.

So I am looking at these midrange and I`d like to stay around 25-35 dollars per midrange..

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-828

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...umber=264-1058

or

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=297-434

My eyes are crossing in looking at specs.

I am using an Acurus 200x3 and matching (wattage) NAD for the rear channels.

I have wicked subs so I really don`t need less than 80Hz for the bass on the woofers......I`m kind of wondering if I could stretch the woofers as high as 500Hz without too much issue if need be.

Sealed enclosure size for each woofer and a midrange match...

Thoughts? I am open to some ideas even outside my price range, cause this is my last set of speakers I am buying.

famous last words....

Jeff
post #2 of 17
For the last speakers you will ever build then you need to make the most of it as it is the midrange that really matters for voice That said I have a couple of suggestions for you that are near to your budget:

Zaph Audio mid/woofer

and the Scan Speak Discovery 10F/4424G and the T/S parameters and Freq plot

I see that you are aiming for about 8 Ohm impedance overall (based on the ribbon tweeters) so a pair of the SS 10F in series will get you there. 1 Litre internal volume sealed for each. For the low XO try around 300 (or the 250Hz you suggest) and for the high try around 3000 or better. John K raves about this driver and he takes them quite high. Of course, yours is a different application. You need to think about off axis dispersion and power response, especially matching up to a ribbon tweeter. I'm sure the Solen guys can optimise this for you and provide details of the volume for your bass drivers in a sealed box. I did a sim in Unibox and it needed 256L for 4, Qtc of 1 (and it wouldn't go much lower than this). It's flat to about 50Hz. Suggesting dual opposed top and bottom for the bass drivers (WW) to minimize vibration. And I think that WMTMW would be enough for the center channel.

Some are of the opinion you choose your midrange first and work from there. So many ways to approach this
LL
post #3 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antripodean View Post

I see that you are aiming for about 8 Ohm impedance overall (based on the ribbon tweeters) so a pair of the SS 10F in series will get you there.

note really possible with 4 4 ohm woofers. This will be a 4 ohm speaker, not that that has any bearing on what mid is chosen. Impedence does not need to be matched; sensitivity does unless you're going active (which you should based on the insanity of this project.... )

Out of the OPs choices the only ones that might work are the first TBs. The others arent sensitive enough, even taking into consideration a parallel configuration. The SS 10Fs might work as well, but over budget.
post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 
Well that was fast

I like the Zaphs, I am not sure I can step up that much to get the scanspeaks.

Also because I am not huge into music anymore and I am purely looking at theater and the odd rockband game....I probably don't need them haha.

Thank you for those box calculations and the other advice.

I am not willing to look at active crossovers, I'm lost on the topic.

Desides my subs, this is my first DIY speaker endeavor....no way really? lol

You guys are great, I look forward to more feedback

Jeff
post #5 of 17
Well done, WMTMW's (or a 3.5 WWMTMWW) can produce excellent results...and I agree with the choice of a ribbon tweeter for that configuration.

With that much money in tweeters, I agree you should not cheap out on the midrange. Since this will be your "last" set of speakers, you will always regret not stepping up to better midrange drivers. The Scan 10F is also the first driver that came to my mind as a good match with the ribbon tweeter.

A potential problem with the 10F is they may not play loud enough, low enough, to mate well with inexpensive bass drivers. I have no knowledge of the particular bass driver you linked but, typically, the Peerless SLS series is good significantly higher than 250Hz. (The 12" SLS in my surrounds are crossed around 300Hz.) As a bit of insurance or "future proofing", you could size the enclosures and cutouts to facilitate both the bass drivers you have as well as something better later on.

Since the center is arguably the most important of the LCRs, I would make it at least as capable as the L&R...possibly doubling 10F's in vertical pairs on either side of a vertical ribbon to lower distortion and achieve a similar vertical pattern. Maintain a woofer complement at least as capable as the other two front speakers.

Seems like you are going to need a professional to take measurements and design proper crossovers for your system. Without optimal XO's, the drivers are a waste of money.
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Since the center is arguably the most important of the LCRs, I would make it at least as capable as the L&R...possibly doubling 10F's in vertical pairs on either side of a vertical ribbon to lower distortion and achieve a similar vertical pattern. Maintain a woofer complement at least as capable as the other two front speakers.

Seems like you are going to need a professional to take measurements and design proper crossovers for your system. Without optimal XO's, the drivers are a waste of money.

Paul, nice call on doubling up the mids. I only suggest less bass drivers as this is going to be a big speaker if my T/S values are spot on. Have to second the need for measurements, including T/S for the bass; this is not a simple XO to design.

Noxdowne, another way to look at the budget for a driver is how well behaved it is. The 10Fs look relatively easy to manage and wont need a lot of components in the XO. The TBs, as an example, will need to be tamed above 2K and the cost of components can add up.
post #7 of 17
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

A potential problem with the 10F is they may not play loud enough, low enough, to mate well with inexpensive bass drivers. I have no knowledge of the particular bass driver you linked but, typically, the Peerless SLS series is good significantly higher than 250Hz. (The 12" SLS in my surrounds are crossed around 300Hz.) As a bit of insurance or "future proofing", you could size the enclosures and cutouts to facilitate both the bass drivers you have as well as something better later on.

Here is a quote from the site from one person using these woofers:

"The M&K drivers provide very good bass extension. They have usable output down to 30hz, which was better than the SLS in my particular application. They did not perform well above 250hz so Id recommend these for mid-bass/bass duties only. The SLS is a cleaner driver overall and can play out to a maximum of 500hz where is begins to struggle"

So what I got out of that was to stop anything over the 250 mark or at least start the roll-off there.

Check this too: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...specs-wt3.html

I wouldn't have an issue doubling up on the Zaph's in the center and I could squeeze that into the budget. In fact I think it's a great idea.

I was planning on a center that is about 3.5 feet wide and about 30 inches tall, so I could run the woofers along the bottom and still have space for a width of speakers across the top section closer to seated height.

MMTMM
WWWW

Would look cool too haha!

I have faith in these woofers, the reviews read well and positive.

The tweeters were a smoking deal and I have always loved the sound from ribbons, I think when I got them last years I paid like $95.00 per tweeter! So that is were this all started.

I am also playing around with WWMMTMMWW and if I stretch out the budget to accommodate $75 per mid I think I might just be better off with 4 Zaph's than 2 SS's in all 5 speakers.....yeah?

Size, weight and other factors in the build are all non-factors. I have lots of room for speakers....and I'm still strong enough to move them

I'm loving the Zaph idea, I'm still not buying in on the audiophile grade of Mid's in the SS and I think that YES my X-over designer may want to slap me upside the head here lol.

Antipodean, the TB's are out...do the Zaph's look close to as easy to tame as the 10F's...I know half the price double the work right?

I'm learning lots here guys, thank you

Jeff
post #8 of 17
Thread Starter 
Also saw this:

https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=8926

because of the better SPL, I am thinking I could run two per speaker and keep the budget vs 4 Zaph's??

Thoughts?

Crossovers at 250hz and 3k?
post #9 of 17
You got a great deal on those tweets...thought you paid more for them!

Anyhow, I would not double the mids in the L&R speakers...might mess up what could otherwise be tidy polar response. Instead, I would return those 8" buy-out woofers and exchange them for a simple pair of 10" with better HF performance...something like the regular SLS or RS270 with aluminum or copper in the motor.

Both the 5" SS and ZA14 are too large for a good horizontal polar match with the narrow ribbon and both probably run out of displacement at 250Hz...but you don't have much choice with the "iffy" 8" woofers in a 3-way. The 5" SS has no advantage in displacement or directivity and runs out of "smooth" up high, so the 14 may be the better bet.

The reason I initially recommended doubling mids was the extremely small displacement, and diameter, of the 10F...and I didn't realize you had height flexibility with the center. Height opens the possibility of duplicating the vertical MTM in the center channel so that horizontal and vertical polar patterns match the L&R. (If you're using the center as a TV stand, don't forget to tilt the baffle up toward the LP...ribbon demands it.)

Woofers without a top end, and delicate tweeters with wide dispersion screams "4-way". However, to keep you out of the really deep end of the crossover pool, I'd opt for pairs of decent 10's, cross to Zaph mids at 400-500, tweeter at 3-3.5k. WMTMW for the L&R, W-MTM-W for the center.

Because of the very different baffle size and shape, make sure your crossover designer uses measurements from your drivers in both cabinet styles and you should be good to go.
post #10 of 17
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the advice Paul.

Here is a picture of my current layout for the center to give you an idea of size. The screen is a 106".



There is 4 feet on either side of the screen open for L/R

There are 10 foot ceilings and the room is 35 feet long with no option for closing off.

The only way I can get the mid-bass to fill is using multiple drivers and although I appreciate the recommendation the 8's have to stay.

I see a pretty flat response on the graph found here:

http://www.solen.ca/pdf/scan/15m4624g00.pdf

from 150 to 4000 there is +/- 4db and the ribbons are good down to no lower than 2300

the woofers are good to 250 to max 350 say?

I don't get what I am missing about why they won't work all together.

The 10f's appear to have the same 4 db +/- across the same range as do the zaph's or just about any mid I see.

Keeping in mind that I am moving up from Polk TSi's that I have been pretty happy with, my ears are obviously not that well trained lol......sorry polkies

I guess I am maybe hoping you'll say "just do it man" haha

So your final word on mids is the Zaph's over the 5.25 inch SS I posted?

Jeff

p/s thanks again for your time on this, I just don't understand the "running out of gas" part when specs say they can cover the range...newbie coming out in me
post #11 of 17
Thread Starter 
and I have turned the subs around to get better sound
post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 


This is my final idea
post #13 of 17
Thread Starter 
then I find this online, I love the look...just needs some box liner spray to finish it off


post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxdowne View Post

The only way I can get the mid-bass to fill is using multiple drivers

Don't understand what this means???


Matching the mids to the tweeter:
It is better to match directivity whenever practical...especially the horizontal because the ear is more sensitive in the horizontal. A narrow ribbon tweeter exhibits very broad horizontal directivity but, because it is tall with respect to wavelength, a very narrow vertical pattern. A ribbon works well in an MTM because the M/M pattern, like the ribbon, is wide but compact vertically (fewer floor & ceiling reflections). However, if the ribbon and cone mids are substantially different widths, the horizontal pattern will narrow substantially, just below crossover. A little 2" mid would help minimize horizontal pattern mismatch with your ribbon...but it obviously wouldn't have enough LF capability...so no 2" mid. The ZA14 is marginally smaller than the SS and seems slightly more extended on the top end. Very minor edge to the ZA14.

Matching mids to the bass drivers:
For a given SPL, cone excursion increases with decreasing frequency. (Watch the cones in your subs for an illustration.) So the maximum LF SPL a driver can deliver is normally determined by how much air it can move while providing reasonably linear output. The SS mid has 80 sq cm of cone area and +/-1.5mm xmax (~linear movement). The ZA14 has only 68 sq cm of cone area but +/-3.25mm xmax. Using SL's SPLmax spreadsheet, the ZA14 can move enough air to achieve an extra 5db LF output over the SS! You need all the LF output/headroom you can out of the mids and that's the primary reason I'd pick the ZA14 over the Scan.

Didn't know you were using a projector screen...so much for assumptions. Have you considered an AT screen? Only $200 or so from Seymour AV and it would provide a far more convincing soundstage...you'd be surprised.

The boxes look good..be sure to design/angle the baffle planes so the center of each MTM is on-axis with your ears. They are going to keep your crossover designer busy...three different baffles and three slightly different crossovers!
post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 
I get it now!

Thank you for the indepth explanation.

I already spoke to Solen, just waiting for response.

I revamped the photo and I'm going WMTMWWW instead of WWMTMWW

That way I can keep the individual MTM and woofer boxes the same size and baffles so I only have one crossover design.
I'll just close the woofer area off inside to do individual "boxes" for each 8 inch driver.
post #16 of 17
Thread Starter 
and yes I am planning a "tilt" to maintain center channel axis to my ears and each of the tweeters will have 38" of height at center in the remaining L,R,RR,LR.

Solen should have crossovers done by Tuesday. They are also advising the woofer box size as well.

Cabinets are next after that.

Jeff
post #17 of 17
Thread Starter 
Think I'm going with the "Apex" speaker box adapted to my drivers, so this should be the last post before I switch to a build thread.

Thanks again for looking.

Jeff
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