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Consumer Level Disney World of Wonder (WOW) vs. DVE Blu Ray - Page 9

post #241 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

I checked out the color clipping pattern last night and found that "97" both red and blue have a VERY faint bar blinking at 233 (234 is not shown on the pattern) with no activity at all at 235 while green has a nicely solid bar at 243 with a faint bar on 235. (I am virtually certain that red and blue aren't registering anything at 234 based on the readings).

So, it seems that at the very peak of the output for red and blue, there is a tiny bit of clipping when the contrast is set at "97" per the peak white test pattern.

I have temporarily compromised with a setting of "96" which should allow red and blue to have a faint blink on "234" (Even if 234 is not on the pattern, it's a logical deduction that it if it was available to see, it would register a very light blinking bar.)

So, still not buying into the concept of leaving some headroom for to allow for source variation. Sigh... I give up.
post #242 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by djams View Post

So, still not buying into the concept of leaving some headroom for to allow for source variation. Sigh... I give up.

Well, for HD-Cable TV sources, sure, makes sense. For blu-ray discs which are supposed to be carefully mastered, I see no reason not to set the contrast precisely to the standard pattern (the people who mastered the original video should have set their display with this standard, so it should be a good setting to use).
post #243 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Well, for HD-Cable TV sources, sure, makes sense. For blu-ray discs which are supposed to be carefully mastered, I see no reason not to set the contrast precisely to the standard pattern (the people who mastered the original video should have set their display with this standard, so it should be a good setting to use).

Shoulda woulda coulda, Tim. Set your levels to reference and enjoy the content. Not all Blu-Rays are perfect so stop beating your head against the wall.
post #244 of 450
RBFilms,

could you explain how the issue of some BD players (particularly Sony's) not outputting various color spaces correctly could effect calibration with the WOW disk? the issue is brought up here...http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...roduction.html
post #245 of 450
The simplest way to look at this is the need for all BD Players and HDTV Panels to process video. Processing is always bad...so it is just a matter of how well a device "processes" a signal. Some do it much better than others. Bottom line - some do it well, some do it fair, and some do it poorly.

The article in your link points out the issues regarding color depth and conversion. The processing to get it all perfect takes some serious engineering by dedicated & passionate designers. They exist, but so do accountants...so there is a limit to what can be done with Consumer Price Points in mind.

As far as calibration....you should get good results with the DISNEY WOW Disc with any HDTV. However, some HDTV Panels calibrate better than others. For example, one HDTV might calibrate perfectly due to the quality of its native panel, engineering, and video processor. Another may be a nightmare to work with ... just to get it close.

All of the reputable discs currently on the market use industry standard test patterns that must meet a specific standard.

You need to get deep in to the menus to correct many of the things that may not be set correctly from the factory. To get panels to look "Perfect" ... you need a highly experienced ISF Calibration Tech who owns about $20,000 worth of gear. You also need to calibrate your BD Player and AVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

RBFilms,

could you explain how the issue of some BD players (particularly Sony's) not outputting various color spaces correctly could effect calibration with the WOW disk? the issue is brought up here...http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...roduction.html
post #246 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

RBFilms,

could you explain how the issue of some BD players (particularly Sony's) not outputting various color spaces correctly could effect calibration with the WOW disk? the issue is brought up here...http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...roduction.html

Thanks for the link mcantu1. Very informative. A must-read for anyone who doubts that BD players can be a source of errors.

Part 4 shows significant colorspace conversion error on the Sony BD player. In my opinion, this would mean that calibration settings developed using this device as the source would only be valid for this device. In other words, you are not calibrating your TV, you are adjusting the TV for the combined errors of BD player + TV. This would be the case no matter which of the calibration discs is used.

I'd sure like to see similar testing done on cable/satellite boxes. It'd probably make us all just throw up our hands in despair.
post #247 of 450
thanks, that clears things up some.

are there any extra things i should keep in mind when calibrating an HDTV via an HTPC vs a BD player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

The simplest way to look at this is the need for all BD Players and HDTV Panels to process video. Processing is always bad...so it is just a matter of how well a device "processes" a signal. Some do it much better than others. Bottom line - some do it well, some do it fair, and some do it poorly.

The article in your link points out the issues regarding color depth and conversion. The processing to get it all perfect takes some serious engineering by dedicated & passionate designers. They exist, but so do accountants...so there is a limit to what can be done with Consumer Price Points in mind.

As far as calibration....you should get good results with the DISNEY WOW Disc with any HDTV. However, some HDTV Panels calibrate better than others. For example, one HDTV might calibrate perfectly due to the quality of its native panel, engineering, and video processor. Another may be a nightmare to work with ... just to get it close.

All of the reputable discs currently on the market use industry standard test patterns that must meet a specific standard.

You need to get deep in to the menus to correct many of the things that may not be set correctly from the factory. To get panels to look "Perfect" ... you need a highly experienced ISF Calibration Tech who owns about $20,000 worth of gear. You also need to calibrate your BD Player and AVR.
post #248 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by lildimsum7 View Post

this might be a stupid question, but i feel i should ask.
i have a dvd of disney WOW. will this work as effectively for blu ray players as the blu ray disney WOW?

No. DVD's are not 1080p and do not have the amount of color/audio/info,etc that Blu-ray's contain. DVD isn't HD. Just higher quality SD. DVD calibration for SD not HDTV T.V.'s. Even if the DVD player has up converstion to 1080p.(Wouldn't make sense.) Blu-Ray is True 1080p/720p source.
post #249 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by djams View Post
Thanks for the link mcantu1. Very informative. A must-read for anyone who doubts that BD players can be a source of errors.

Part 5 shows significant colorspace conversion error on the Sony BD player. In my opinion, this would mean that calibration settings developed using this device as the source would only be valid for this device. In other words, you are not calibrating your TV, you are adjusting the TV for the combined errors of BD player + TV. This would be the case no matter which of the calibration discs is used.

I'd sure like to see similar testing done on cable/satellite boxes. It'd probably make us all just throw up our hands in despair.

Yes. . . here I am. . . lurking.

Pardon my intrusion, but based on what I am reading here and what I just read over on the xxLH90 thread I have to feel a little self satisfied in that some others are finding out what I have been saying for quite some time now.

1.) Consumer grade BD players (or DVD player) are not calibration devices. Ergo, there is a fallacy in using any consumer grade device as a calibration signal source. Djams may remember me stating this over in the XXLD550 thread.

2.) Also, I have used Panasonic DMP-BD80, Sony BDP-S550, LG BD530 and LG BD550 Blu-ray players (on the same TV) with AVS HD709 and AVIA and found differences.

3.) Many others have sworn this is trivial and not a significant amount of error to make a difference. Csamos comes to mind. Balderdash! True calibration can not be attained unless using a complete chain of calibrated devices and signal sources in the process. In electronics repair and alignment of critical equipment there are standards that are regularly checked and verified.

4.) Others have also asserted that once a "calibration" is obtained on ONE HDMI input for a TV that ALL inputs can be set to these values.. . meaning "Once calibrated, all is calibrated". Again. . . Balderdash! What does a person do about cable or satellite STBs? OR OTA reception from local broadcast stations? You can not assume that all inputs are the same nor all devices output the same color space accurately as the next.

5.) Therefore, "calibration" as termed in the consumer line of TVs is, at best, an approximation.

However, what really matters, in my opinion, is whether you can get a satisfying and pleasing picture on the LCD panel. All is not lost using devices like the Eye-One LT, Display 2, or other devices. It helps us understand these things. I've mentioned this in other threads so it helps to point this next statement out. I've shown my wife, friends, and family the "difference" between "eyeball" adjustments and even the preset modes on my LG 42LD550; as well as the calibrated settings obtained using my Eye-One Display 2. As Djams knows, they all say, "Why do you fiddle so much with the "calibration" for such little difference?" Granted, I can get presets to look pretty darn good because of the "educated" eye I've developed working on so many TVs.

In other words and in my opinion, an owner who is knowlegable can get within 95% of a "calibrated" picture quality using the AVS HD709 media and forget all the inconsistencies we start to realize as we go through the calibration learning curve. Sorry to throw a bit of cold water, but some of this is really a bit of "smoke and mirrors". TVs , BD players, Cable boxes, game systems, etc., are consumer grade devices folks!

After all is said and done. . . don't throw your hands in the air. Just realize that this really isn't the exact science we would like it to be. Use of a colorimeter is just something we can use to help us a bit, but don't put all your faith in it. Enjoy the TV folks. Tweak it, but don't get too serious about it. A few years ago, all we had was 3 point RGB for gray scale and that was it. Of course there is more to say about this in technical terms. But, folks. . . let's just enjoy the great picture we can get with just some reasonable adjustments.
post #250 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post
Shoulda woulda coulda, Tim. Set your levels to reference and enjoy the content. Not all Blu-Rays are perfect so stop beating your head against the wall.
I couldn't agree more!
post #251 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Yes. . . here I am. . . lurking.
Pardon my intrusion, but based on what I am reading here and what I just read over on the xxLH90 thread I have to feel a little self satisfied in that some others are finding out what I have been saying for quite some time now.

Hey Phase - yes, you were on my mind while I was reading the links above. I'd planned get that link to you, so you'd have some backup information for future discussions on the topic. But here I find out you're way ahead of me again.
post #252 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by djams View Post

Hey Phase - yes, you were on my mind while I was reading the links above. I'd planned get that link to you, so you'd have some backup information for future discussions on the topic. But here I find out you're way ahead of me again.

Thanks Dave. Actually, the main reason I've been cruising the AVS forum is because after coming back from the north woods it's been too hot outside lately. And this weekend they're talking 95 on Sunday!

Great reason to have our LG's and some movies or sports to watch!
post #253 of 450
So this is where you guys hang out now

Good to see you both!
post #254 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post

So this is where you guys hang out now

Good to see you both!

Hello Henry!

Well, we seem to "hang out" and follow each other around. I guess we are missing the good 'ol days of last year! I'm sure Otto is anyway!
post #255 of 450
Thank you Phase. Alignment / Calibration errors on BD Players can be very significant. Just recently, I had problems getting an HDTV Panel due to a BD Player that was clipping whites. AVR's can have issues as well.

Calibrating the entire Signal Path is a must for critical / reference viewing.
post #256 of 450
how to you 'calibrate the BD player' separate from the HDTV?
post #257 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

how to you 'calibrate the BD player' separate from the HDTV?

Based on my conversations so far with a calibrator who I intend to have work on my TV, they have a professional signal generator which they use to set your TV perfectly, then when you connect your blu-ray, IF the same test patterns are incorrect when coming off a blu-ray disc, you can simply adjust the offending settings on the blu-ray interface until it looks correct and walla, you have a blu-ray player which is outputting it's signal with the precision of the test generator.
post #258 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

how to you 'calibrate the BD player' separate from the HDTV?

Therein lies the crux of the "calibration" conundrum. Most, if not all, consumer grade Blu-ray of DVD players have only user adjustable settings which may or may not provided the latitude necessary for accurate picture display. Other than the user controls, consumer grade Blu-ray players contain no "alignment" or internal calibration adjustments. They are hopefully manufactured to adhere to standards, but what comes off the line is usually within 5 to 10% of required standards. . . maybe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy91 View Post

Based on my conversations so far with a calibrator who I intend to have work on my TV, they have a professional signal generator which they use to set your TV perfectly, then when you connect your blu-ray, IF the same test patterns are incorrect when coming off a blu-ray disc, you can simply adjust the offending settings on the blu-ray interface until it looks correct and walla, you have a blu-ray player which is outputting it's signal with the precision of the test generator.


In theory, this may work. But then you are relying on the 'ol eyeball to verify that you get the picture "right". Interesting how this may be acceptable to some who sell/do calibrations, yet claiming you can't make accurate settings to your TV to begin with (by eyeballing) for an acceptable and decent picture quality. Seems a bit of a double standard. Also, Blu-ray and DVDs often have differing video characteristics which may not adhere to the precision of whatever signal generator is being used. I would ask any calibrator using signal generators and such to show certification forms for each piece of equipment from a 3rd party certification lab assuring the equipment was certified within less than a year. When I worked in the industry, equipment had to be certified every 90 to 180 days depending on the piece of equipment.

As I said in a previous post, this is consumer grade electronics and any "calibration" is an approximation at best. You can get within 95% of a "calibrated" picture using AVS HD709 with all TV and Blu-ray player picture enhancements turned off. This does require some education and learning in what to look for in proper TV and Blu-ray settings. The AVS HD709 BD media contains a short video of what you need to do and look for in picture settings.
post #259 of 450
So i have one quick and probably stupid question. I have a Panasonic Viera plasma TV and i use my PS3 slim as my DVD/blu-ray player. But i do not watch that blu-ray movies. I want to calibrate my TV to get the best picture for gaming, streaming netflix, and watching SD cable. Would it still be in my best interest to buy the blue ray version of WoW instead of the normal DVD version to calibrate even though i do not watch blu-ray movies or HD cable?
post #260 of 450
After thouroghly discussing contrast ad naseum and trying to figure out if we should set it strictly to 235-max with no headroom, during my research, I ran into this thread and found it utterly fascinating:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...240153&page=16

I am coming to the conslusion (just like those in that thread) that for Blu-ray discs, we should be setting the contrast scale with no room for clipped content as it's pretty obvious that it's noise. For broadcast content, leaving a slight bit of room for overages seems logical although staying strict to 235 likely won't hurt anything.

I still think that the whites are a bit saturated looking with my contrast set for anything over 235 to be clipped. It's very difficult to know which method to use since I'm back and forth. Sometimes setting the contrast strictly to 235 as peak whie gives me a better picture on some content and other times lowering the contrast gives more details to very bright white content which is a bit smushed together by using a strict 235 hard limit. I like the flexibility to use which ever contrast setting looks right on the content I'm watching right now and that includes the backlight intensity as both settings seem to have a moving target for best quality depending on the time of day and the content being watched.
post #261 of 450
^^ It also is somewhat dependent on the Blu-ray player you have. I noticed some media (and Blu-ray players) also seem to look better with a bit higher setting of 235. But, yes, setting white levels over 235 can most times be detrimental.

Also, back light can be reduced at night. Many owners like to have a day time and night time setting. Around 35 foot lamberts for night and 50 or so for daytime. Also, some TVs, like LGs, have an Energy button on the remote to reduce back light in 3 steps about 20% for each step. This is useful for some DVDs and BD discs or for night time viewing.

Lastly, use of a bias light at night, behind the TV is highly recommended to improve perceived picture quality, especially black level. *EDIT* The light can be a 13 watt CCFL bulb of 5500k to 6500K color temperature or something else in that temperature range. (Hopefully this will satisfy the critics) The light should provide soft, indirect light reflected off the wall and ceiling area behind the TV. Any other light in the TV room should be way off to the sides and/or aimed to provide indirect lighting, and not shinning into viewers eyes nor onto the TV screen.
post #262 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

.....Lastly, use of a bias light at night, behind the TV is highly recommended to improve perceived picture quality, especially black level. The light should be a 13 watt CCFL bulb of 5500k to 6500K color temperature. The light should provide soft, indirect light reflected off the wall and ceiling area behind the TV. Any other light in the TV room should be way off to the sides and/or aimed to provide indirect lighting, and not shinning into viewers eyes nor onto the TV screen.

Don't settle for misinformation on this issue. The video industry recommendations for proper bias lighting have been widely known for decades. Here's the straight scoop from a "sticky" thread listed in the 'Links to this forums [sic] popular threads' at the top of this sub forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1162578 .

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
post #263 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeAB View Post

Don't settle for misinformation on this issue. The video industry recommendations for proper bias lighting have been widely known for decades.


Thanks for the reference to the sticky. This idea was to inform this new owner to try something, with little or no cost, to see how it would improve his picture quality. The color temperature of the lamps I mentioned are within the recommended range and hardly "misinformation". Many of us are using bias lamps exactly as I described. There is no need to purchase some expensive "special purpose" bias light. Especially if an owner doesn't want to repaint the wall behind his/her TV to make sure the reflected indirect light is the "exact" color temperature. In practical and typical living room environments, a small 5500K to 6500K CCFL lamp will provide all that is needed. If this information is incorrect, then there are a lot of owners who have been enjoying improved perceived picture quality with this simple solution.
post #264 of 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Thanks for the reference to the sticky. This idea was to inform this new owner to try something, with little or no cost, to see how it would improve his picture quality. The color temperature of the lamps I mentioned are within the recommended range and hardly "misinformation". Many of us are using bias lamps exactly as I described. There is no need to purchase some expensive "special purpose" bias light. Especially if an owner doesn't want to repaint the wall behind his/her TV to make sure the reflected indirect light is the "exact" color temperature. In practical and typical living room environments, a small 5500K to 6500K CCFL lamp will provide all that is needed. If this information is incorrect, then there are a lot of owners who have been enjoying improved perceived picture quality with this simple solution.

It's not difficult or "expensive" (whatever that means) to provide recommended viewing conditions, once those recommendations are known and understood. Many people already have a white wall behind their display. Why assume a viewer wants to settle for a series of compromises at the outset of implementing proper recommended viewing practice? What "a lot of owners" settle for as an improvement may be sufficient advice in your way of thinking. I like to think people who come to this forum want what's best, not what many settle for. We all make compromises to what is the ideal. Should we start nearer the ideal, or farther down the scale? When should I assume someone else ought to start farther down the scale? Is that OK, as long as many other people have made such a choice?
post #265 of 450
Your referenced article is all that is needed for owners to make the choice as to what is "proper". Interesting on how you define what is "farther" down the scale. As far as wall color, most "real" living room walls behind TVs in America's living rooms can be a plethora of colors. And I am assuming nothing, but you seem to like to imply much.

I see no need to be critical, attacking, and argumentative. All I recommended is a simple starting solution. But then, maybe your intentions are otherwise and just are using this as a lead in for something to sell. I stand by what I provided and all of AVS Forum members or readers just like to share helpful information.
post #266 of 450
Back to topic...
post #267 of 450
Why does setting the brightness with this WoW disc (and most other calibration discs, to be fair) result in an incorrect brightness setting with blu-ray playback?

The disc instructs you to adjust brightness until you can see all the way down to 1% above video black, but ensure you do not see black rise on the video black level.

It doesn't work on any of my plasmas though.

When you play back a blu ray disc after using this method, true video black does in fact dither. I am not talking about the letterbox bars (which is what the discs seem to calibrate) I am talking about the actual true video black within the blu-ray movie itself. When viewing the DVE Blu ray grayscale ramp pattern, with the video black white dot markers, the sets dither far past the white dot indicators. Lowering brightness so the dithering/rise from black begins directly after the dots fixes the problem, and sets brightness correctly. This is the only pattern that seems to be aligned with video black in blu ray playback.


It seems all the discs I own, DVE, WoW, AVS, all inform you how to adjust the brightness incorrectly. This holds true on several blu ray players and various tvs combinations I own. Tested on several discs as well.

Is it a plasma thing?
post #268 of 450
I have both AVIA, DVE and AVS HD709 and have had no problems on the several TVs I've used them on. This includes a Hitachi Ultravison RPTV, and several LCD TVs. Black level was generally no problem.

You may want to check and make sure any picture enhancements such as Dynamic Contrast or other black level settings are off. Gamma should be set at 2.2. Also, you want to make sure your Blu-ray or DVD player has enhancements or picture settings normalized. Some owners using a PS3 have to make sure of this in particular.
post #269 of 450
I have a Panny plasma and had no issues with the WOW's brightness. It's very much in line with the other discs. Not sure what's going on with your tests.
post #270 of 450
Which test on WOW if there is can I use to evaluate color space ?(4:4:4,4:2:2,etc)
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