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The Official HSU VTF-15H Thread - Page 47

post #1381 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbruins2 View Post

I have the Boston VR3's as my mains and they just don't sound good set at 80 or100 hz or even higher.I have them set at 40hz with my 2 VTF-15's and it seems to sound better to me.I have the HK AVR3600 receiver.I have been reading that my mains should be set to small.Am I missing something?

What do you mean by just don't sound good? It probably depends on the difference in frequency response you are getting between the different crossovers. For example your subs may have you in a null at 70hz that is better covered by your vr3's. Or your vr3.s maybe over emphasis the response there and you like it. Unless you take measurements it is hard to know what is going on. How/where have you placed the vtf-15hs? Changing the placement may smooth the frequency better giving even response. It is possible that you have a phase issue going on between your mains and subwoofer. Have you tried to maximize your phase alignment? If you have an spl meter and test tones you can plot what is going on with the different crossover setting and find out the culprit.
post #1382 of 3938
Quote:


He explained why he thought that 1400 watt peak was an overstatement. Granted, this is based upon conjecture and not actual measurement. Based upon what he observed, he is allowed to form an opinion. After all, isn't that's what reviewers do?

I thought reviewers were suppose to test equipment and use results to form opinions...not make wild guesses of "what-ifs" and "maybes".
post #1383 of 3938
I just finished reading the re-review and yes, I noticed SOME criticism, sometimes even sarcastically. So it seems Gene was unable fully hold Paul with his tantrums and sometimes stupid things.... The 23 yrs claim!?, arrogant & repulsive!

But overall, lets say 90%, it was a VERY good read that was more focused on the analysis than the drama.

The article give some lights in some areas, yes. Do I need to trust them more than HSU or HSU more than them? Thats every one opinion and mine is well documented (for the VTF-15H review), because of the first review contradictions, nitpicking and all that... and of course the lie about marketing / ad thing.

Still the review show it is great sub for the price. Anyhow, I think that HSU have a great opportunity to build a mk2 version during 2011.

The great thing about this re-review is that we can see the differences of tunning modes. So thanks AH for taking time to share them.

Hopefully we would see other reviews....and graphs, and more discussion...
post #1384 of 3938
BTW, regarding the dropout in low freq, I found > this explanation <</a> reasonable
post #1385 of 3938
Dear all,

Let me start by thanking Audioholics for the time, effort, and expense in getting this all together. I've known Gene for a long time, and he is a good guy. Please allow me to provide some feedback on the addendum.

Let's start with subjective listening impressions. When listening to two channel music with the subwoofer placed in the middle of the room at or near maximum output levels, the VTF-15H with both ports open will have substantially less output compression compared to some of the other subs tested. This may make the sound too deep bass heavy in comparison. During development of the VTF-15H, we noted that a less deep bass heavy sound may be perceived as "tighter" with music, due to accentuation of mid-bass frequencies. So this is one of the reasons why we included support for a wide variety of operating modes (including various ported and sealed modes) in addition to continuously adjustable Q. The VTF-15H has more flexibility in terms of operating modes and adjustable Q vs. any of the other subwoofers tested here. This flexibility makes it practical to get good sound quality, irrespective of room size, playback levels, listening preferences, etc. I'm sure that the VTF-15H would have been perceived as very tight sounding under the previously mentioned listening conditions if using one of the other operating modes.

Regarding measurements with the enclosure on it's side vs. upright, it's a little bit hard to compare Paul's graphs because the Y axis scale has changed from 5dB per major division in the original review to 4dB per major division now. In our own testing with Paul's review unit, we measured a 2dB advantage at 20Hz with the enclosure upright vs. on it's side. This is significant. I personally feel that the most accurate measurement is done with the enclosure in the upright position, for two reasons. One is that each port contributes equally to the deep bass output (which is not the case when the enclosure is on it's side). Two is that the microphone need not be moved when switching from two port open to one port open mode, as the distance from mic to port centroid stays the same for each operating mode (which is not the case when the enclosure is on it's side). The only tradeoff is that the port centroid ends up being about 10% closer to the mic than the center of the driver, but it is a worthwhile tradeoff given the two advantages noted above.

As some of you may know, we measured an outdoor frequency response of +/- 2.5dB from 20-200Hz (ie. 5dB down at 20Hz relative to 50Hz) for Paul's VTF-15H review unit in the upright position with 2 ports open and EQ2. So there is still a 3dB difference between our frequency response measurement vs. Paul's. We really don't know exactly why there is a difference between the two data sets. We may never know. Do note that we have already measured the frequency response of VTF-15H many times, in several different locations, with two different microphones too, and we have always gotten results that are consistent with this +/- 2.5dB range. In the near future we will take very extensive measurements of the VTF-15H at the park which should result in nice ripple free curves that are about as accurate as we can hope for. I am looking forward to providing a wealth of data on the VTF-15H, far more than has ever been provided before.

On to the frequency response sweeps done with 1 port open, operating mode set to 'EQ1', and Q = 0.7. These settings are not recommended for high playback levels. We mention this in the VTF-15H owner's manual on page 5 here: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/...HSubmanual.pdf. This operating mode should be used for low-to-moderate levels only, where a rising in-room response may be preferrable due to the lower sensitivity of the ear at increasingly low frequencies at low-to-moderate listening levels. The 'EQ1' operating mode is certainly not for "making great curves for sales", and we don't appreciate that remark. If one wants to listen at high playback levels, it is better to run with operating mode switch set to 'EQ2', whether using 1 port open or 2 ports open. That said, with real world program material, there should be no issues with the woofer reaching it's excursion limits in any of the operating modes, including 1 port open with 'EQ1'. In fact, I have yet to hear from even a single VTF-15H owner who has bottomed out the driver in any of the operating modes. Based on the customer feedback, the overload behavior on this subwoofer has proven to be quite excellent, and the limiters and subsonic filtering appear to be working well.

Next, let's talk about the sealed operating modes. We intentionally aimed for a rolled off (NOT "droopy") low frequency response in the sealed modes. This response shaping works quite well in small-to-moderately sized rooms that are well enclosed and have significant room gain to boost the low end response, and also works quite well for customers who are looking for a less deep bass heavy sound in any given room.

Regarding the BASH amplifier used on the VTF-15H, we are very happy with it, and feel that we achieved a very balanced result for end users. As I have mentioned before, this is a very powerful and high headroom amplifier, runs cool to the touch, has very low noise, and has conveniently located switches and controls. The performance and reliability of the VTF-15H amplifier has been exceptional so far.

As you may know, we released CEA2010 data on maximum clean peak output many months ago. There is a 2-3 dB difference between our max clean peak output measurement vs. Paul's, at all frequencies, with 2 ports open and 1 port open mode. Again, we really don't know why there is a difference between the two data sets, and again, we may never know. In our upcoming measurement session in the park, we will measure max clean output upright vs. on side, 2 port open vs 1 port open, etc. using an SPL calibrator before the measurements are taken in order to take into account any temperature/humidity effects on the day of the measurement.

Having spent countless hours over the last two years measuring the VTF-15H, listening to the VTF-15H, and getting customer feedback and impressions on the VTF-15H, I am quite confident that this subwoofer performs as advertised. In our experience, the maximum output capability is very strong all the way down to 20Hz, the frequency response linearity is exceptionally good with true 20Hz extension (within a +/- 2.5dB window based on our recent measurements), the output compression is very low even at very high sweep levels (in max output and max headroom modes), and the limiters and subsonic filtering seem to work extremely well to keep the unit sounding clean with real world program material. The customer feedback has been overwhelmingly positive too. I am very proud to call the VTF-15H our most flexible, most capable, and most innovative subwoofer design ever.

Thank you again to everyone for the support. It makes the occasional long and sleepness nights well worth it!

Sincerely
post #1386 of 3938
Hi bbruins!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbruins2 View Post

I have the Boston VR3's as my mains and they just don't sound good set at 80 or100 hz or even higher.I have them set at 40hz with my 2 VTF-15's and it seems to sound better to me.I have the HK AVR3600 receiver.I have been reading that my mains should be set to small.Am I missing something?

Would it be possible for you to post a diagram (or picture) of your room layout, including listening position relative to speakers and subwoofers, in addition to any openings to other areas?

What settings do you have right now on the VTF amplifiers with respect to operating mode switch/Q control/crossover switch, and on the A/V receiver with respect to crossover frequency for main speakers and for the subwoofers?

Thanks

Sincerely,
post #1387 of 3938
Pete,

If you really want to investigate the differences in the measurement, why not bring your equipment over to AH and perform a test WITH Paul using his equipment and your equipment. This will clear up both measurements once and for all and will present numbers everyone can agree on. Its not necessary for any long write up, just the numbers.

Just my 2 cents.
post #1388 of 3938
Hi aznrock,

Certainly not a bad idea, but we have already picked up the review unit from Paul and have it in our possession. I suppose that Paul could bring his measurement equipment to our facility, but it would be a bit awkward, and I doubt that this would happen without some form of compensation if it happened at all.

Sincerely,
post #1389 of 3938
I think it's time to let this thread go....
Don't worry, be happy!
post #1390 of 3938
I'll be happy when I start getting some decent sleep
post #1391 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

I'll be happy when I start getting some decent sleep


Well you can start by turning off that laptop!?
post #1392 of 3938
Pete ... can you explain how this sub differs from the previous batch that were billed as:

"World's first truly modular subwoofer series – Future Proof design"

“World's first modular subwoofer series means: ability to upgrade porting, enclosure, driver, amplifier, mid-bass headroom, deep bass headroom. In a sense, one can theoretically upgrade every critical component of their subwoofer, using a modular approach.”

And what percentage of end users actually upgraded to the proposed benefits?
post #1393 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSlow View Post

Well you can start by turning off that laptop!?

Good call my friend
post #1394 of 3938
Hi vinyl,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinyl View Post

Pete ... can you explain how this sub differs from the previous batch that were billed as:

Those modular design ideas were cool in theory, but not always so practical in practice. The turbocharger would double the port cross-sectional area vs. plugging one port, which is fantastic, but the aesthetics were not the best. The supercharger would double the internal volume of the enclosure, but the overall enclosure would be very large, and this never made it to production. The amp can always be upgraded in power, and the driver can always be upgraded in terms of excursion, but this can lead to a less balanced overall result. The MBM concept is still in production with the MBM-12 MK2. That module is great, but some people don't want the added cost/complexity of integrating it into their system.

The VTF-15H has so much flexibility built into the design. No real need for any add-ons (other than maybe adding a second VTF-15H ). Also, the port design is very effective and distinctive too.

Sincerely,
post #1395 of 3938
Pete, it looks pretty likely that the testing equipment is the cause for the difference. In terms of quality and precision, how does your testing equipment compare to Paul's?
post #1396 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewb View Post

pete, it looks pretty likely that the testing equipment is the cause for the difference. In terms of quality and precision, how does your testing equipment compare to paul's?

+1
post #1397 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

Hi aznrock,

Certainly not a bad idea, but we have already picked up the review unit from Paul and have it in our possession. I suppose that Paul could bring his measurement equipment to our facility, but it would be a bit awkward, and I doubt that this would happen without some form of compensation if it happened at all.

Sincerely,

I guess it's a cost of doing business. Right now I think HSU is in an awkward position because people can either :

1. Take AH's measurement as the accurate one because they have tested other subs with the same equipment and are +/- a db or so from the mfr.
2. Take HSU's word on it that their measurement is more accurate.
3. Take a gamble and buy the sub and test it and if it doesn't meet their needs, ship it back but lose the shipping cost.
4. Don't bother with the VTF15H sub due to the uncertainties.

I think given the same situation, be it SVS, Rythmic, eD, etc would probably attempt to clear the uncertainty for the sake of the business rather than let this hang over the heads for the long haul.
post #1398 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by aznrock2000 View Post

I guess it's a cost of doing business. Right now I think HSU is in an awkward position because people can either :

1. Take AH's measurement as the accurate one because they have tested other subs with the same equipment and are +/- a db or so from the mfr.
2. Take HSU's word on it that their measurement is more accurate.
3. Take a gamble and buy the sub and test it and if it doesn't meet their needs, ship it back but lose the shipping cost.
4. Don't bother with the VTF15H sub due to the uncertainties.

I think given the same situation, be it SVS, Rythmic, eD, etc would probably attempt to clear the uncertainty for the sake of the business rather than let this hang over the heads for the long haul.

I don't think there are uncertainties. I think there are unrealistic expectations. Everyone including pete is acting as if this sub has a super-ultra 21" driver and 5,000w amp @ $880.
post #1399 of 3938
Pete, a couple of questions if you will.

Q1: How much of an effect does temperature have upon the measurements? That would include both the box and the outside ambient temperature.

Q2: What is the error of uncertainty at a particular confidence level (say 95%) when doing measurements and how does it compare with different setups (microphones for example)? The reason for Q2 is as follows. I've seen studies where carefully prepared standards by accredited organizations are sent out to numerous labs around the country. The labs have different instruments, all highly regarded and maintained, yet using the exact same stated procedure, will arrive at values that not only have a certain internal spread but also will differ to some extent, sometimes largely so, from lab to lab.
post #1400 of 3938
Have I mentioned lately how much I *love* my twin VTF-15h's?!
post #1401 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by aznrock2000 View Post

I guess it's a cost of doing business. Right now I think HSU is in an awkward position because people can either :

1. Take AH's measurement as the accurate one because they have tested other subs with the same equipment and are +/- a db or so from the mfr.
2. Take HSU's word on it that their measurement is more accurate.
3. Take a gamble and buy the sub and test it and if it doesn't meet their needs, ship it back but lose the shipping cost.
4. Don't bother with the VTF15H sub due to the uncertainties.

I think given the same situation, be it SVS, Rythmic, eD, etc would probably attempt to clear the uncertainty for the sake of the business rather than let this hang over the heads for the long haul.

I don't think that adds up to Hsu being in an awkward position and to suggest that Paul do yet another set of measurements after he admits to being angry and disappointed on the AH forum is short sited. He was upset to have to retest the sub and it showed in his review, at this point his objectivity is in question.

The sub speaks for itself, and whether it does 110 or 114 at 20Hz in a parking lot doesn't matter to me. It sets a benchmark for performance at the $880 price.
post #1402 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Have I mentioned lately how much I *love* my twin VTF-15h's?!

I'm considering getting duals myself. What type of cubic feet are you running in and is it a sealed/treated room or open?
post #1403 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

i don't think that adds up to hsu being in an awkward position and to suggest that paul do yet another set of measurements after he admits to being angry and disappointed on the ah forum is short sited. He was upset to have to retest the sub and it showed in his review, at this point his objectivity is in question.

The sub speaks for itself, and whether it does 110 or 114 at 20hz in a parking lot doesn't matter to me. It sets a benchmark for performance at the $880 price.

+1

And.... The output compression at higher sweeps on the other subs look ugly...
post #1404 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post
Have I mentioned lately how much I *love* my twin VTF-15h's?!
Rob,

Have you done any measurements (rew or manual) of your subs in room? Also, when viewing Blu Rays or whatever, when there is content below 20hz do you feel as you have missed anything? And do you ever feel your pant legs flap?

thanks...
post #1405 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post
Rob,

Have you done any measurements (rew or manual) of your subs in room? Also, when viewing Blu Rays or whatever, when there is content below 20hz do you feel as you have missed anything? And do you ever feel your pant legs flap?

thanks...
I'm not Rob so I apologize.. I posted this back in December http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19581611. Play a scene like Iron Man 2 when Whiplash spins his whips at Tony Stark on the race track. The room definately presurizes and you can feel you pants slightly move in my 13x24 sealed theater.
post #1406 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by uni_panther View Post
I'm considering getting duals myself. What type of cubic feet are you running in and is it a sealed/treated room or open?
+1. I'm developing an addiction and I think my family is scheming an intervention. If I'm going to, I've gotta do it quick before they put me in a treatment program.
post #1407 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I'm not Rob so I apologize.. I posted this back in December http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19581611. Play a scene like Iron Man 2 when Whiplash spins his whips at Tony Stark on the race track. The room definately presurizes and you can feel you pants slightly move in my 13x24 sealed theater.
Thanks so much. Room gain is our friend.
post #1408 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 View Post

I don't think there are uncertainties. I think there are unrealistic expectations. Everyone including pete is acting as if this sub has a super-ultra 21" driver and 5,000w amp @ $880.

...and you own a HSU sub?

Why about that you should then respect Pete as you requested the other guy?... Yeah, to respect the "bastard" reviewer (just like the name of the graph, nothing personal)
post #1409 of 3938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Have I mentioned lately how much I *love* my twin VTF-15h's?!

I got my second VTF-15h yesterday and just now plugged her in. Will do some dialing in this weekend. They sure sound sweet!
post #1410 of 3938
Any thoughts on how the HSU VTF-15 compares to this ED?
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=618
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