Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea 
I have no dog in this fight, but I've read most of the posts on this issue. I was considering a HSU VTF-15H sub before the AH review and I'm still considering one after reading both AH reviews. I don't fault Paul for trying to defend his reputation, and I don't fault Paul for becoming a little personal in his defense. Anybody who does fault Paul is either a hypocrite, or hasn't been pushed hard enough in a passionate area...yet. He is obviously very knowledgable and more versed than 99.9% of the people he is tying to defend his review against. I also think the HSU customers have been much more personal in their attacks than Paul ever was, with one post even questioning Paul's sexuality!?!?!
. I've seen it at the HSU forum, the AH forum, and obviously here. Gene, I don't think you should fire Paul, quite the contrary - this is a learning exp. as you suggest. Just ask Paul allow you to approve his posts before doing so if he feels a need to reply since this is becoming an attack on him and thus gets very personal. A tough, knowledgable reviewer, Paul, is ideal for a review publication as yourself. I think Paul proved his ability to do a solid review and backed up his unpopular findings in a extensive retest. I understand how he feels attacked, and feels the need to defend his integrity and his life's work and reputation. I actually found the extra retest results impressive and the followup increased my opinion of the AH publication. Before the retest results I was willing to write off your AH review scores, but after the retest results - the point was pretty clear that they were accurate and as Paul explained he held no bias (I don't think his personal defense/rant posts show he is biased or unjust in his review, just that he is proud of his work and the accuracy of his results). The VTF-15 sub is great at it's pricepoint, but has limitations. Paul showed those limitations in his testing. As Gene said, some of the HSU customers who spent hard earned money on the subs didn't like hearing that their sub wasn't perfect or possibly even exactly what they thought they were getting at the 20Hz level. Most of these customers would never know the difference anyway - and would otherwise be quite happy with their purchase. Most of us on this forum have about the technical aptitude of Ethan and Adam and as you know from their home brew five sub review shootout -- the HSU sub preformed well. None of us consumers are going to be listening to our subs outside, thus the room gain offered by most of our home theatre rooms will compensate for the reduced 20hz output, when compared with the more premium options.
In my opinion, Pete and Dr. HSU should retest their numbers, as they intend to, and republish their numbers (as it sounds like corrections may be in order). There may even be a little crow to eat --- but that doesn't mean the VTF-15H is a bad subwoofer --- quite the contrary. It is still an excellent sub at the pricepoint. It just might have been marketed a bit stronger than it should have as shown in the review. Paul and Gene have done their work as a third party independant review. It was good solid work, and they are to be commended -- if they didn't do it -- the other 99.9% of us sure could not have.
Being a prospective customer. Their review did not scare me away from the consideration of purchase - rather it was helpful in validating the idea that the sub is good for the money (just not the standing leader when compared to significantly more expensive subs (Which is to be expected)).
I have no dog in this fight, but I've read most of the posts on this issue. I was considering a HSU VTF-15H sub before the AH review and I'm still considering one after reading both AH reviews. I don't fault Paul for trying to defend his reputation, and I don't fault Paul for becoming a little personal in his defense. Anybody who does fault Paul is either a hypocrite, or hasn't been pushed hard enough in a passionate area...yet. He is obviously very knowledgable and more versed than 99.9% of the people he is tying to defend his review against. I also think the HSU customers have been much more personal in their attacks than Paul ever was, with one post even questioning Paul's sexuality!?!?!
. I've seen it at the HSU forum, the AH forum, and obviously here. Gene, I don't think you should fire Paul, quite the contrary - this is a learning exp. as you suggest. Just ask Paul allow you to approve his posts before doing so if he feels a need to reply since this is becoming an attack on him and thus gets very personal. A tough, knowledgable reviewer, Paul, is ideal for a review publication as yourself. I think Paul proved his ability to do a solid review and backed up his unpopular findings in a extensive retest. I understand how he feels attacked, and feels the need to defend his integrity and his life's work and reputation. I actually found the extra retest results impressive and the followup increased my opinion of the AH publication. Before the retest results I was willing to write off your AH review scores, but after the retest results - the point was pretty clear that they were accurate and as Paul explained he held no bias (I don't think his personal defense/rant posts show he is biased or unjust in his review, just that he is proud of his work and the accuracy of his results). The VTF-15 sub is great at it's pricepoint, but has limitations. Paul showed those limitations in his testing. As Gene said, some of the HSU customers who spent hard earned money on the subs didn't like hearing that their sub wasn't perfect or possibly even exactly what they thought they were getting at the 20Hz level. Most of these customers would never know the difference anyway - and would otherwise be quite happy with their purchase. Most of us on this forum have about the technical aptitude of Ethan and Adam and as you know from their home brew five sub review shootout -- the HSU sub preformed well. None of us consumers are going to be listening to our subs outside, thus the room gain offered by most of our home theatre rooms will compensate for the reduced 20hz output, when compared with the more premium options.In my opinion, Pete and Dr. HSU should retest their numbers, as they intend to, and republish their numbers (as it sounds like corrections may be in order). There may even be a little crow to eat --- but that doesn't mean the VTF-15H is a bad subwoofer --- quite the contrary. It is still an excellent sub at the pricepoint. It just might have been marketed a bit stronger than it should have as shown in the review. Paul and Gene have done their work as a third party independant review. It was good solid work, and they are to be commended -- if they didn't do it -- the other 99.9% of us sure could not have.
Being a prospective customer. Their review did not scare me away from the consideration of purchase - rather it was helpful in validating the idea that the sub is good for the money (just not the standing leader when compared to significantly more expensive subs (Which is to be expected)).
I believe the same poster also asked if Paul was "related to Al Capone", on top of questioning whether he was gay, not sure if that was some sort of slight to Italians or not.
Great post, though I do agree Paul went WAY overboard with his comments which were outright offensive to HSU. He simply needs to develop a thicker skin, and I'd guess/hope Gene has had that discussion with him.
The biggest gripe I have is simply with the seemingly constant bickering by HSU about the measurements of their products when done by independent third parties. Be it Secrets, Ilkka, or AH, and the need to come in and explain why the measurements were incorrect or didn't agree to theirs, and at times even using those "incorrect" measurements to their advantage to show how their product performs better than the competition, knowing the vast majority of consumers won't have the technical knowledge to understand their response, and when challenged just kind of sweep it under the rug (I still can't get over that one). IMO, a manufacturer coming out with their own set of measurements doesn't rectify the situation, and if anything, makes it all the more suspicious. Yes, even if they do it in a "public" venue. But I guess that's just me.
Contrary to popular belief, I am not a HSU hater and I actually recommend their products quite regularly (namely the ULS-15 and VTF-15H) depending on what the individual is looking for (how much extension vs mid bass slam), their budget, room size, aesthetics, etc. For the price they aren't easy to beat.
At some point (especially on an AV "science" website) you need to simply stand by your product for what it is, a great performing product for the price with smart compromises to achieve a desired response, and not make it out to be something it isn't, even if it's done tacitly. Seaton and Rythmik are both excellent examples of companies that market their products for what they are.
Now back to the regular scheduled programming of slamming Paul and AH ...
Forget about the numbers. Numbers don't lie.
Besides, it's unlikely you get X% more "performance" for X% more dollars, the VTF-15H is a fine example of this.
