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The Official HSU VTF-15H Thread - Page 7

post #181 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

But I actually get 10 Hz out of my subs. I have witnesses.

How did you measure them? Reason that I ask. I can play the Black Hawk Down helicopter scene with the 7 seconds of 7hz material at reference level in my HT and my uncorrected Radio Shack Digital SPL meter gives me a max C scale fast reading of 114db at the listening position. Now if I add the +20.5db correction factor (10hz) for this meter http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...s.html#post363, I get 134.5db at 10hz. I do have a pretty nice subwoofer system, but I do not have a pair of Matterhorns. This is why I do not trust RS SPL posted readings. For the record, my system measures flat to single digits using REW and a calibrated mic.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #182 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

...

Thanks for adding 0 to this thread penngray. You took the science right out of it with your hunches and speculation.

True that.
post #183 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post


How did you measure them? Reason that I ask. I can play the Black Hawk Down helicopter scene with the 7 seconds of 7hz material at reference level in my HT and my uncorrected Radio Shack Digital SPL meter gives me a max C scale fast reading of 114db at the listening position. Now if I add the +20.5db correction factor (10hz) for this meter http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...s.html#post363, I get 134.5db at 10hz. I do have a pretty nice subwoofer system, but I do not have a pair of Matterhorns. This is why I do not trust RS SPL posted readings. For the record, my system measures flat to single digits using REW and a calibrated mic.

are you serious? What is your system made up of? And are your measurements done with only the sub system on or were all the channels on?
post #184 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

How did you measure them? Reason that I ask. I can play the Black Hawk Down helicopter scene with the 7 seconds of 7hz material at reference level in my HT and my uncorrected Radio Shack Digital SPL meter gives me a max C scale fast reading of 114db at the listening position. Now if I add the +20.5db correction factor (10hz) for this meter http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...s.html#post363, I get 134.5db at 10hz. I do have a pretty nice subwoofer system, but I do not have a pair of Matterhorns. This is why I do not trust RS SPL posted readings. For the record, my system measures flat to single digits using REW and a calibrated mic.

I have a feeling that you are picking up that strong 18hz that goes with that 7hz material so you don't need to add much to it.
post #185 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

How did you measure them? Reason that I ask. I can play the Black Hawk Down helicopter scene with the 7 seconds of 7hz material at reference level in my HT and my uncorrected Radio Shack Digital SPL meter gives me a max C scale fast reading of 114db at the listening position. Now if I add the +20.5db correction factor (10hz) for this meter http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...s.html#post363, I get 134.5db at 10hz. I do have a pretty nice subwoofer system, but I do not have a pair of Matterhorns. This is why I do not trust RS SPL posted readings. For the record, my system measures flat to single digits using REW and a calibrated mic.

Forgive me, as I am a novice on the subject, but on the realtraps site they suggest that even cheap RS meters are accurate with low frequencies below 600hz. You can check it out in their test tone cd section, where they have a short tutorial on how to graph your in-room low frequency response. They have sine wave tones from 10-300hz. I downloaded the tones, burned them onto a cd, then use a cheap RS meter to graph my LF response. Seems to work ok...

My response is fairly flat down to ~12hz using this method. If I was to apply those correction values, my numbers would be WAY off.
post #186 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

Shouldn't be a problem Kevin. If you like the VTF-15H, then for simplicity sake you may want to consider putting the older models on the used market and getting a second VTF-15H.

Sincerely,

Pete, my basement is over 6000 cubic feet. I am happy with the bass I currently get, but I want more which is why I was thinking of adding the VTF-15H to the dual HO's.

Which would give me more output and sound the best: (keep in mind I also have an MBM)

1. Keep the 2 HO's and add a VTF-15H
2. Sell the 2 HO's and get dual VTF-15H's

Thanks
post #187 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

Forgive me, as I am a novice on the subject, but on the realtraps site they suggest that even cheap RS meters are accurate with low frequencies below 600hz. You can check it out in their test tone cd section, where they have a short tutorial on how to graph your in-room low frequency response. They have sine wave tones from 10-300hz. I downloaded the tones, burned them onto a cd, then use a cheap RS meter to graph my LF response. Seems to work ok...

My response is fairly flat down to ~12hz using this method. If I was to apply those correction values, my numbers would be WAY off.




While MJG can add whatever number of dB's to the BHD 7 Hz scene that he wants to, the compensation factors that he used do not apply to wide band signals. The compensation factors may be appropriate for use with single frequency sine waves, but the accuracy of those compensation factors is an unknown.

The RS SPL meter set to the SPL A scale or C scale filters audio per the SPL A scale or C scale. In addition, the accuracy of any particular SPL microphone element is an unknown below 20 Hz. If you measure flat to 12 Hz, you are way hot down low.

Here is a FR sweep of the electronics of a RS SPL meter set to A scale (red) and C scale (green). The microphone element was removed for this test.



LL
post #188 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Continuous is definitely more of a torture test, not necessarily real world. But the point is not what kind of test is better, but to be able to standardize so that tests are comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed.

But if you look at a certain company's forum, you can see that someone is threatened by something.

Maybe it's the VTF-15H's real nice finish while their's is just a painted box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Well, I think people have decided to challenge the VTF-15H's capabilities because of its price point, and when people feel threatened, they are not usually logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Penn...Mark Seaton modeled it and made a post in the DIY section:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19472561

You need the T/S parameters to accurately model it, but yeah...with about 1400w of peak power or a little more it's definitely not hard to believe that a 15 inch woofer can match the burst output of the Ultra. certainly plausible.

I think the only point I have seen raised as questionable by more than one person is the 6db of headroom. This seems to be something that even a few guys that don't ever to seem to agree are agreeing upon. And that is, that it's kind of out the ordinary.

I admit, I have not seen that kind of rating since the NAD ads hit magazines in the 1980s. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't possible, just that it's not something encountered often. If it is accurate, that amp may be the most innovative and unique thing about the model as it's rms rating is somewhat lower than the other 15's in it's class.

I did see that whole thing Curtis, as I am active there too. but I don't detect anything contentious. Simply that someone raised the HSU numbers and how they might compare to other products. To answer that question accurately, then you have to point out that they are different kinds of measurements and there is some translation to answer. Since CEA2010 is becoming more widely used, it was suggested that it would be a nice thing to include those measurements. since so many others are using it.

It is difficult, in audio and subwoofers in general to have clarity when manufacturers use different measures: burst vs continuous, eighth space vs half space, in room vs outdoors. So the more Q&A you have the more clarity you get.

As far as anyone being intimidated by anything, why would any of the other ID companies, most of which cannot keep up with demand, be intimidated by anyone else's product? I agree that would be silly.

Bickering over standards and amplifier ratings aside, the new HSU unit looks like a handsome unit with a tons of bang for the buck. Nice to see more and more big beefy subs hit while HTIB seems to be becoming the mainstream norm.
post #189 of 5093
edge...I am in complete agreement with you...except maybe the contentious part, as there is also a thread about being "made in the USA".

Yes, the argument about testing standards is silly, as the CEA2010 standard is just a means for comparison, certainly not the be all, end all. My self, I don't care much about output numbers.

One interesting thing, and it hasn't been confirmed yet, but it seems that there is actually CEA2010 certified software for testing subs.
post #190 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

edge...I am in complete agreement with you...except maybe the contentious part, as there is also a thread about being "made in the USA".

Yes, the argument about testing standards is silly, as the CEA2010 standard is just a means for comparison, certainly not the be all, end all. My self, I don't care much about output numbers.

One interesting thing, and it hasn't been confirmed yet, but it seems that there is actually CEA2010 certified software for testing subs.

Well, that was a totally different subject and as you can see can get way too political. But it's a bit of a more serious subject matter. But I think that was aimed at something else that was entirely foreign or darn close. Not anything you are talking about. And an opinion to counterpoint an opinion anyways. Americans tend to take "American" pretty seriously. So lets not even bring that up lol!

It is good to have a standardized test. And I respect that.
I'm just not convinced that clipping the ever living crap out of a subwoofer for a fraction of a second really paints a picture on how loud it's going to play with real world program material before it shows enough distress that you have to lower the overall level vs any other.!
(forgive my run-ons..I'm tired lol)
Standardized or not.A piece of the puzzle yeah. Just not the whole picture.

But yeah, I could not listen to any of these new monstrous beasts near their limits either. I often wonder why we bother when someone is just going to say "Can you please turn it down some?"
lol

Have a good night man!

Jeremy
post #191 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

CEA2010 certified software for testing subs.

When was this released?

Was it in existence when Ikkka did his tests on the SVS?
Or did he simply calculate the math from the spl and distortion measurements?

Is it more accurate that true RTA or Linear X, and if so by what tolerence +/-?

If there is standardized measurement program for the spec, is there a standard microphone?

Try to find that out too?
post #192 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

When was this released?

Was it in existence when Ikkka did his tests on the SVS?
Or did he simply calculate the math from the spl and distortion measurements?

Is it more accurate that true RTA or Linear X, and if so by what tolerence +/-?

If there is standardized measurement program for the spec, is there a standard microphone?

Try to find that out too?

Don't have an answer for any of those...
post #193 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

While MJG can add whatever number of dB's to the BHD 7 Hz scene that he wants to, the compensation factors that he used do not apply to wide band signals. The compensation factors may be appropriate for use with single frequency sine waves, but the accuracy of those compensation factors is an unknown.

The RS SPL meter set to the SPL A scale or C scale filters audio per the SPL A scale or C scale. In addition, the accuracy of any particular SPL microphone element is an unknown below 20 Hz. If you measure flat to 12 Hz, you are way hot down low.

Good to know...

So, does this mean when folks are posting REW curves that are flat down into the single digits, they are way hot down low as well? Or, does the software compensate? Just trying to understand...

Sorry for the brief hijack everyone.
post #194 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed.

But if you look at a certain company's forum, you can see that someone is threatened by something.

Maybe it's the VTF-15H's real nice finish while their's is just a painted box.

Linky?
post #195 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed.

But if you look at a certain company's forum, you can see that someone is threatened by something.

Maybe it's the VTF-15H's real nice finish while their's is just a painted box.

I definitely know who you are talking about. I talked to them directly about this. I bought the Hsu anyway!
post #196 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

I definitely know who you are talking about. I talked to them directly about this. I bought the Hsu anyway!

Isn't it supposed to be delivered today?
post #197 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

Isn't it supposed to be delivered today?

I tracked it a few minutes ago. The delivery date still says today but it doesn't say out for delivery, it says at local facility so I'm not sure if I'm getting it today or not.
post #198 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

Bickering over standards and amplifier ratings aside, the new HSU unit looks like a handsome unit with a tons of bang for the buck. Nice to see more and more big beefy subs hit while HTIB seems to be becoming the mainstream norm.

Exactly. If these numbers are anywhere near accurate, the person has the space, and doesn't mind the design, this is the ported sub to get under $1k IMO (probably the sub to get under $1k, barring "sealed vs ported" debates that is). I'm fairly certain HSU wouldn't have sent the product to Audioholics to test had they not felt somewhat confident it would perform at least exceedingly well.

The PB12 Plus in the Audioholics test should be a good barometer of the measurements as IIRC, SVS said the PB12 plus would be within a few db of the Ultra across the range (?), and we have 2M GP Ultra measurements posted by Ilkka (which was why SVS sent the PB12 instead of the Ultra in for this test as they said there was no point retesting it).
post #199 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

Good to know...

So, does this mean when folks are posting REW curves that are flat down into the single digits, they are way hot down low as well? Or, does the software compensate? Just trying to understand...

Sorry for the brief hijack everyone.

I think the issue is once you get below 20hz the Radio Shack meter and other similar meters are simply not accurate, and likely vary a lot between units. It's often why you see what appear to be "odd" responses (say a dip around 15 to 20hz then sudden rise below that), or whatever. I'm going to get an ECM8000 mic along with an M-Audio sound card soon which will hopefully provide more accurate measurements. But in any event, this is for another thread!!
post #200 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

I tracked it a few minutes ago. The delivery date still says today but it doesn't say out for delivery, it says at local facility so I'm not sure if I'm getting it today or not.

They are probably looking at the size and weight of the package and drawing straws.
post #201 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I'm fairly certain HSU wouldn't have sent the product to Audioholics to test had they not felt somewhat confident it would perform at least exceedingly well.

+1 that's the key if you ask me
post #202 of 5093
It's here!! My VTF-15H has arrived! I'll update my decision thread with pics sometime today!
post #203 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

It's here!! My VTF-15H has arrived! I'll update my decision thread with pics sometime today!

Yeah! Have fun.
post #204 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

It's here!! My VTF-15H has arrived! I'll update my decision thread with pics sometime today!

Congrats!

Looking forward to reading about your impressions.
post #205 of 5093
Quote:


It's here!! My VTF-15H has arrived! I'll update my decision thread with pics sometime today!

Lucky b@stard!
post #206 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewB View Post

Lucky b@stard!

+1

Mine won't be here till Thursday.
post #207 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

When was this released?

Was it in existence when Ikkka did his tests on the SVS?
Or did he simply calculate the math from the spl and distortion measurements?

Is it more accurate that true RTA or Linear X, and if so by what tolerence +/-?

If there is standardized measurement program for the spec, is there a standard microphone?

Try to find that out too?


As far as I know there was not such a dedicated program or suggested set of equipment. Its not in the official cea2010 document. I tried to find one to make the tests easier, but so far I've had no luck. Illka told me what he used was proprietary but he wouldn't say to who or how to obtain it. I'm guessing that manufacturers develop their own.
post #208 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

It's here!! My VTF-15H has arrived! I'll update my decision thread with pics sometime today!
post #209 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I'm going to get an ECM8000 mic along with an M-Audio sound card soon which will hopefully provide more accurate measurements. But in any event, this is for another thread!!

I have an ECM8000 microphone that I had professionally calibrated. My calibration was quite a bit different than the ECM8000 correction values offered at HomeTheaterShack. Unless you get it calibrated, there is really know way of being sure that you are more accurate than with a Radio Shack SPL meter. My ECM8000 is with 1 db from 63 to 2000 Hz, but it rolls of pretty quickly below that. I am -4.84 dB at 20 Hz, -12.98 dB at 10 Hz, and -16.96 dB at 5 Hz.
post #210 of 5093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post


lol
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