Half SBS and Full SBS, can someone explain it? - Page 2

Dune claims to play ISO. Can you explain why you say HTPC is the only option?

Blu-ray 3D ISO image is not frame compatible and to play it one can only use Blu-ray player or HTPC.
TV set top boxes do not decode or play ripped ISO images of 3D Blu-ray disks.


Mathew Orman

You seem to know your stuff, so I'm confused. Can you explain this:


It supposedly plays direct from the HD

http://dune-hd.com/hd_players/curren...ne-hd-max.html

You need 3D Blue-ray ISO in the supported file format list.
Plain Blu-ray format is 2D only.

Mathew Orman

Interesting, I thought there might be a difference after I replied and re-read your post.

WDTV Live, nor any other standalone media player I've heard of, can play 3D at full 1080p per eye. ISOs for regular 2D BDs are supported on some of the media players but the best they can support for Blu-ray 3D rips using the 1080 side-by-side 3D format which are always half resolution (there is no such thing as full resolution side-by-side in the 3DTV video formats currently defined by the HDMI 1.4a standard). Full resolution 3D requires the Frame Packing format and that is what is used on all Blu-ray 3D discs and thus any ISO for a Blu-ray 3D will be in the frame packing format and the media player would have to support HDMI 1.4 to output the video, but none currently have this capability. Note that it is possible to equip a HTPC with the appropriate hardware and software to play Blu-ray 3D ISO, but we will have to wait until at least the next generation of standalone media players to get the capability.

thanks... yeah i found my answer

Went over to my buddies house who has the optoma HD66 3D front projector hooked up to a PC using the sterescopic player and he was playing Bluray SBS rip of Deep Blue Sea (or some IMAX sea movie) and WOW it was like the dam fish were 8 feet wide right in front of my face ... now i can't wait even more for my adapter to test the bluray SBS mkvs on my OptomaHD66

Corrrection.
3D Blu-Ray full HD stereoscopic content is stored as 2D + Delta. And that is two files where the left eye steam is in even numbered file and the delta is in odd numbered. Example: 0000.m2ts is base 0001.m2ts is the Delta.

Frame packing you are referring to is the stereoscopic content layout which is part of HDMI 1.4a low level video transmission protocol and it only lives in HDMI 1.4 cable during transmission.

Mathew Orman

How can the PS3 play 3D Bluray with only HDMI 1.3? I have a pretty powerful computer with crossfire 5770s, but I'm guessing I can't use them to display full HD 3D as theres no way to get the content to my TV from my PC, I'd need one of the new 6000 series ATI cards. Is that correct?

3D over 1.3 HDSMI see below and it will explain


Remember how I've been telling you not to buy a new Blu-ray player, to wait until new 3D Blu-ray players with HDMI 1.4 connectors become available?

Well, forget all that.

The HDMI Licensing Group has solved at least the Blu-ray side of the 3D problem. All devices with HDMI 1.3 and an upgrade connection method Blu-ray Live decks (including PS3), satellite receivers and cable set-top boxes can be upgraded to output 3D, says Steve Venuti, president of the Group.

However, as with all things, there's a catch. Keep reading to see what you'll be giving up.

Unfortunately, you'll still need a new HDMI 1.4-enabled 3D HDTV to see the 3D effect. It's necessary because those HDTVs have dual-scanning capabilities: They can display near-simultaneous frames, one for each eye, to create the 3D illusion. Current HDTVs are only single-scan.

And you won't get full 1080p 3D via an upgraded HDMI 1.3 box, either just half or quarter resolution, depending on the source. HDMI 1.3 isn't powerful enough to stream near-simultaneous 1080p frames. From a full 1080p source such as Blu-ray or a satellite receiver, you'll instead get dual 1080i images to create 3D; from a cable box, you'll get dual 540i images. I've been told the difference between full 1080p 3D and 540i 3D is essentially the difference between Blu-ray and DVD, which for most people is not that big of a difference. I still think you'll want at least a 65-inch 3D HDTV, though, to really get an immersive 3D experience.

If you've got a non-BD Live player, you're SOL. But for everyone who just bought a Blu-ray Live player, breathe easier you just saved yourself around $400 and you're halfway to viewing Avatar at home next spring.

http://dvice.com/archives/2009/12/no...ray.php#source

All new2010 3D-Blu-ray players have HDMI 1.4 output connectors.
You do not need a HDMI 1.4 output connector to send HDMI 1.4a 3D contennt as evidenced by the Cable and Satellite STBs and by the PS3 which can play 3D-Blu ray disks and output full 1080p per eye content.
There are 3D capable TVs such as the RP DLP 3D ready models which have HDMI 1.3 input connectors. The DLPs however only display 3D at 960x1080 per eye but do an excellent job of it
You need a 3D Blu-ray player to play the Avatar 3D Blu-ray disk in 3D.
Cable and Satellite cable supplies either 1/2 1080i 3D SbS format or in 1/2 R 720p in 3D TnB format.
You can also play 3D-Blue-ray disk on a PC and output the content to a 3D capable displays even at full 1080p per eye depending on the PC configuration.

You completely contradict the post before you that says HDMI 1.3 does NOT have enough bandwidth to display full HD 1080P 3D. It's half res 1080i. You said Cable, Satellite STBs and the PS3 can play 3D Bluray disks and output full 1080P per eye... That is not correct based on everything I've read...

Here's my question. I just bought a LG 60PX950 which is 60" 3D TV. It's immersive enough, and looks pretty damn good, but I've only been able to watch 1080i SBS content (obviously). I have a PS3 (again HDMI 1.4) and I have a PC close enough to run HDMI to it, but it only has ATI 5770's (two) in it, but they will also be only 1080i 3D as they are HDMI 1.3.

So my only option to run Full HD 1080P 3D is to buy a NEW 3D Bluray player with HDMI 1.4 either stand alone, or one for my PC, and if I go PC route, I also need a new video card, ATI 6000 model.

Is that correct?

Yes I know I contaeicted them because they were wrong.
HDMI 1.3 and and HDMI 1.4 both have the same maximum bandwidth.
I did not state that cable and satellite can have HD content at 1080p per eye bacause I know that they cannoct.

Can you please provide some reference to your information on the bandwidth of HDMI 1.3 and full HD 1080P SBS content?

Nevermind: I found some references to what you are talking about. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication. Sorry.

So basically, I could display full 1080p per eye from my PS3 or from my PC? How can I do it from my PC? 3D Blurary drive and output to my TV via HDMI?

Not true, the Sony players are HDMI 1.3.

Is that true of all of them or is it only true of the one or two Sony 2009 model players for which Sony has provied new firmware?

Several points need to be made:

Some standalone Blu-ray players introduced in the first half of 2010 used HDMI chips that were desigined to support the essential HDMI 1.4 functions for 3D but these chips could only be officially called HDMI 1.3 because either the HDMI 1.4 certification test requirements were not completed before these chips were produced or because that chip did not implement every feature required by the HDMI 1.4 spec. but may in fact have the essential subset of functions requried to support Blu-ray 3D.

While the PS3 uses HDMI 1.3 chips, Sony was able to reduce the functions being performed by these chips to the minimum and to implement software emulation of the essential HDMI 1.4 functions within the PS3's cell processor. This solution does not work for standalone players since they do not have a powerful general purpose processor to run such emuation of HDMI 1.4 functions. Even in the case of the PS3 some functions are still not supported when playing 3D discs (i.e., no support for 3D Java menu nor HD audio supported with Blu-ray 3D discs).

Directv and cable boxes use the half resolution side-by-side (or top/bottom) format which is referred to as a frame compatible format in that it is essentially a standard 1080i or 1080p HD video frame that happens to contain two side my side images. The HDMI chips in these boxes do not see it as any different than any other 1080i (or 1080p) video. What is lacking with this approach, in addition to the reduced resolution, is the support for the extended information only avaible with version 1.4 for the HDMI handshake that would allow these satellite or cable boxes to fully support exchanging the 3D capabilities with the connected 3DTVs. They use work arounds using only the more limited HDMI 1.3 information that generally works but there can be issues between certain satellite/cable boxes and certain 3DTVs and there can be additional compatibility issues when placing a AVR between the source and 3DTV. This is viewed by many as an interim solution until a new generation of HDMI 1.4a enabled cable and satellite boxes are available, in another year or two.

Ron,
That is an excellent writeup.

I am a little confused with connectors.
Are there any physical differences in HDMI 1.3 and the HDMI 1.4a connectors?

The folloing link contains all of differences between HDMI protocols and physical connectors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Since HDMI1.4 protocols and connectors are supersets of HDMI 1.3, far more important then the connectors, are the actual transmittrer and/or receiver chips used in the sender or receiver systems.

The HD 5850 will do the trick. ATI says on their website, that only the newer 68xx series can do 3D ISO, but the 5850 will do just fine!

Has anyone gotten the full SbS (3840x1080) Tron Legacy trailer to open in Stereoscopic player? It gives me an error about not being able to connect all of the filters' outputs. It opens in Media Player Classic but that doesn't do me any good in getting it output in checkerboard mode. I could squeeze it horizontally and make it Half SbS effectively and let my 3DA-1 convert but that's no fun.

Not sure if this has been answered already or if this is the proper place, but how do you make 1 half-SBS file from two left/right files? The only thing I can think of right now is 3DBD Buster but I don't feel like shelling out ~$50.

You can download free 30 day trial of Adobe Premiere and Encore
with those you can create SbS anamorphic frame compatible versions and burn it into new Blu-ray DB or just play it from HD.

Mathew Orman

What formats does Adobe Premiere render to? I'm using a PS3 to play the files, and I don't have a BD burner, so I'd need any of these.

.MKV works fine as well as that usually converts swimmingly in MKV2VOB

PS3 plays regular Blu-ray so you could use the m2ts format
from Encore.

Mathew Orman

Great thread and site!!
Congratulations!!

I've a .mkv file half sbs.
Can I play it in my PC only having ATI Radeon HD4800 and a Smasung monitor Syncmaster 931BW?
If not, do I have to buy Nvidia 3D Vision (or similar) and a monitor with 120Hz "3D ready" (like Samsung 2233RZ or Asus) or my monitor will do?
To play the same file on 3D TV I'll need to buy a "simple" media player that plays .mkv and change settings on TV to view side by side, right?

Full SBS does not make much sense at all.

The point with SBS formats is to be able to be backwards compatible with older std. signals used before 3D came along (like 720p, 1080i/p) etc. and be able to show 3D while making the format backwards compatible with old equipment.

going 3840x1080 to get full SBS HD would not make any sense really as the old equipment would have to be changed anyway, so the frampacking format could as well be used if hadrware has to be changed anyway.

/T

It may not make much sense for you, but for me it's the best format that I can use at the moment on my 3D display. Fullres SBS has a lot of purpose outside of the current limited HDTVs.
This format has been used for years by computer users with computer based 3D displays that have the software and hardware designed to benefit from these files.

Maybe you meant MPEG4-MVC, the format BluRay 3D uses. It's the best format currently available for 3D content since it is the most efficient and provides the best quality/size ratio.
The main problem is that there are no free MVC encoders so in the mean time if you have full res content that you want to save,store or broadcast through computers, you have two options : separate files or Side by side full resolution... until the x264 team implements MVC.

Be careful when using the word frame packing.
Frame packing is a very generic term to mean there are hidden frames within a standard frame. A technique used to bypass certain limitations of certain software or hardware. Many techniques for storing 3D content can be called "frame packing", including side by side.

"The" frame packing format is the hdmi transmission format, it does not exist before or after the hdmi cable. It is basically a Full-resolution vertically stacked SBS stereo image with blanking in between. Once the data reaches it's destination, the packed frame is disassembled and transformed into whatever format the display uses internally.

But WDTV "reads" a MKV half sbs file, right?
Do I need any special features (upgrade codecs or something else) in my PC to read the same file?