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Anthem MRX Receivers - 300, 500, 700 Owners Thread & Tweaking Guide - Page 515

post #15421 of 16457
I'm thinking now I may just try to pick up a used MRX 300...I've seen some of them around in the $600 range. I would be tapped out of HDMI inputs, that was one reason for wanting a newer 310 model but on the other hand if the price is right it might be worth it. I don't have an HDMI receiver right now and no room correction...so it should still be a potentially vast improvement.

I just had a question about the usability of the second zone for the MRX 300. Suppose I have the MRX 300 main setup as 5.1 and the zone2 speaker outputs hooked up to a pair of speakers on my deck. My second zone would primarily using an input source of Apple TV --> DAC --> MRX 300 analog inputs. What are the steps for the following scenarios:
a) If someone is watching 5.1 material in the main zone and I want to use the second zone audio.
b) If the receiver is off/standby. Do I physically have to go to the receiver, turn it on, etc. ?
c) If someone is using the Apple TV in the main zone and I want to use a different analog input, say radio or CD/DVD player?

Any known bugs with MRX 300 of the HDMI switching variety?

The other issue is my PC is on a different floor, however I do have a Mac Mini nearby that I could dual-boot with Windows 7...any issues with ARC on a Win 7/Mac Mini?

Thanks,
Crisp'n'Clean
post #15422 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post

My HT speakers are all made by Magnepan (4 Ohm, low sensitivity 86 dB/2.83 V) including tri-center comprised of two MMGs flanking the screen and one CC3 placed above the screen.

Three 4-ohm speakers in parallel?! That is a load that very few amplifiers in the world would be happy with. You will fry any receiver. You need separates.
post #15423 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

. . . .

One other question though, without added measuring equipment like REW, what is the easiest way to match the phase of the subwoofer to the phase of the LF for a dual sub setup?

Thanks!

Note that after doing this you will need to re-Measure for ARC. What ARC hears for the combined output from the two subs will vary according to their Phase with respect to each other.

First, get yourself an inexpensive Sound Pressure Level meter. Everyone uses the digital readout unit sold by Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12680845

Next, go into the MRX and set all the speaker distances manually. Phase is a function of distance, so you have to set distance first. If your subs are at different distances, use their average distance (I'm assuming you don't have any other Sub EQ electronics between the MRX and your Subs). Measure from the front of each speaker grill to the location of your center seating -- i.e., to ARC mic position #1. Use a steel tape, and have a friend help so it can be held taut.

Next do a ballpark adjustment of each sub's built-in volume control so that the Sub is producing roughly the same volume as the left front speaker. This will make it easier to hear the subtle effect of Phase adjustment below. If you've PREVIOUSLY adjusted your two Subs to MATCH in output volume, and have Measured and already HAVE an ARC solution loaded, *AND* the Sub volume trim uploaded by ARC is already within a few dB either side of 0dB, then that's all you need.

Otherwise, use the built in test tones: Set the SPL meter to "slow" response and "C" weighting. Hold it at arm's length pointing straight up at ARC mic position #1 (center seating at seated ear height). Set the Subwoofer volume trim in the MRX to 0dB, and leave it there. Adjust the LF and RF volume trims to produce 75dB SPL with the test tones. Then, with only one Sub powered at a time -- and leaving the Sub volume trim in the MRX set at 0dB -- adjust the volume knob found on each Sub, in turn, to produce 72dB SPL. The idea is to get the two subs matched in output, and roughly in balance with LF and RF. NOTE: Two subs each producing 72dB, will combine to produce roughly 75dB. Ballpark settings are good enough as ARC will do the fine adjustment of Volume Trims.

Next, if you have an ARC solution already loaded, use the Crossovers it has selected. Otherwise, unless you have good reason to believe another value is better, go into setup and set the Crossover for LF/RF to 80Hz. The Crossover built into each Sub should be disabled if possible. Otherwise crank it up to the highest frequency setting to get it out of the way as much as possible. (The Crossover for the Sub in the MRX should be set to 80Hz or higher.)

Next, go into Setup for the FM tuner. Set its surround sound processing to NONE, so that the 2-channel FM audio it receives will come out ONLY in LF/RF and also Sub (due to the Crossover processing).

NOTE: At this point you should have power on only one of the two subs.

Next, select the FM tuner and tune it to the hiss between stations. Adjust Main Volume so that the hiss is at about 75dB SPL at ARC Mic position #1. This is loud enough to hear what you need to hear, but not too tiring for an extended session trying to set Phase properly. Audio will be coming from LF/RF and the powered Sub.

Using the Phase control on the powered sub, adjust Phase slowly until you find the setting that produces the MAXIMUM bass in that hiss. Maximum bass means minimum cancellation between the Sub and LF/RF playing this same content -- i.e,. proper Phase. The hiss is mostly treble so you will have to listen closely for the bass component at the low end of that. The effect is subtle so play with the control a bit until you are really hearing it. Most people find they have best results doing *THIS* adjustment by ear -- i.e., without using the SPL meter. But you can try it both ways to see which works best for you. You will likely find a pretty wide range of settings that sound equally good. To deal with this, sneak up on the candidate Phase setting from BOTH SIDES and if you get two different answers, use the mid-point setting between them. It is best to have a friend adjust the control while you sit at Center Seating doing the listening. When you think you are getting close to a candidate Phase setting, rotate the Phase control well off of that and you should now hear the difference in bass component more clearly.

Your Sub may ALSO have a Polarity control with two choices. Flipping Polarity is like reversing the wires to the Sub, it reverse the direction of cone travel for all frequencies. Setting Phase adjusts the cone motion near the Crossover frequencies. So if your Subs do have a Polarity control, the thing to do is to find a candidate Phase setting for each Polarity (which will likely be different) and then pick the Polarity/Phase COMBO that produces the most bass in this test.

As a Rule of Thumb, Polarity should be "normal" for a Sub in the front of the room, and "inverted" for a Sub in the rear of the room. Just think of what happens to the direction of cone travel when you rotate the Sub 180 degrees for placement in the rear of the room.

Once you have Polarity/Phase set for one sub, change over so that just the other Sub is powered and set it's Polarity/Phase. When each Sub, individually, is in proper Phase with LF/RF, then they are also in proper Phase with each other.

Some Subs may not HAVE Polarity or Phase controls. Or have only Polarity. If so, set Polarity (if available) according to the Rule of Thumb above. Now, without individual Phase controls you can not adjust the relative Phase between the two Subs. This may produced unwanted peaks and dips in the Measured curve for the COMBO of the two Subs which are not present if you Measure only one Sub at a time -- i.e., they are due to the two Subs interacting with each other as opposed to Room Response for each of them. Dealing with that will likely involve repositioning one or both subs. NOTE: At these frequencies, even inches matter -- or even just rotating the sub in place. The Quick Measure Tool in ARC is a big help in picking new Sub positions. Try it with each Sub powered alone, and then the Combo powered together to see how the two of them are interacting to alter the combined output.

If the Subs have no individual Phase controls but seem to be working well in terms of their combined output not looking noticeably worse than their individual output, then they STILL need to be adjusted in Phase with respect to the Main Speakers. So how do you do THAT?

What you do is this same test with FM hiss, but this time with BOTH Subs powered. And then you put in a false value for Sub distance! By specifying a Sub distance that is shorter or longer than reality you make the MRX put in a relative timing delay between the Main Speakers (which have correct distance) and the Sub Combo. That translates into a Phase adjustment for the Sub Combo with respect to LF/RF -- but without altering the Phase between the two Subs themselves.

If you have only one Sub, you can correct its Polarity and Phase settings without having to re-Measure for ARC. Your existing ARC solution will just work better. With one Sub you only have to re-Measure if you change the Sub's position or its Volume knob setting.

But with two or more Subs, if you change Polarity or Phase on ANY of them, you do need to now re-Measure for ARC so that ARC can hear the new, combined output of your adjusted Sub settings.
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 9/29/13 at 12:58pm
post #15424 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Three 4-ohm speakers in parallel?! That is a load that very few amplifiers in the world would be happy with. You will fry any receiver. You need separates.

Check my original post again. I only need pre-pro functionality from the receiver. As for the center channel, each of the three speakers in the tri-center set-up has dedicated external amplification channel.
post #15425 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

--Bob

Very Very good post Bob. Thank you so much!
post #15426 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Very Very good post Bob. Thank you so much!

Yes very good post on how to phase align a pair of subs. Perhaps I misunderstand but doesn't the phase control on a sub amp only affect phase near the frequency of the crossover setting on the same amp? If so, and if the crossover is disabled or set at its highest setting, wouldn't the phase adjustment do virtually nothing?

Even if it is doing something, it is still only doing it near the crossover and not for the entire range of the sub. So if your two subs are at wildly different distances from the main listening position, isn't it possible that the subs' phases could be aligned only near the crossover but quite a bit out of phase an octave below the crossover?

In my mind the simplest solution is to have multiple sub outputs so that different distances (and ideally levels though that's easier to deal with) can be set for each one. Then the AVR can delay the entire signal sent to one of the subs such that they are phase aligned perfectly at all the frequencies they produce. Of course, once they are phase aligned they can and should be EQ'd as a single entity.

Am I missing something in my logic here? Obviously a decision would have to be made as to how many sub outs an AVR should have for this purpose. Two seems like a reasonable number, though four would be even better.

The other solution to this phase issue is to be certain that each sub is equidistant from the main listening position. Then you could leave polarity normal or inverted as needed and have perfect phase.
post #15427 of 16457
^ There is no reason why the Phase adjusting circuit needs to be tied into whether Crossover is enabled or not. Indeed Phase adjustment is OFTEN used on Subs with Crossover disabled (because the Crossover processing is being done in the AVR).

But if that's the case in your sub, it is still probably wiser to disable the Crossover in the Sub and then treat the Sub as having no Phase control (as described above). Some folks even prefer to do the "false distance" method even when Phase control IS available in their Sub(s).

If you have Subs at wildly different distances, odds are you have more serious problems. Typically this happens because the user has set one of the subs right next to the seats -- perhaps even using it as an end table. This is a very bad idea, because it puts your ears in the "near field" of the Sub, and screws up what you hear. And the drinks tend to fall off.....

In any event, Phase is a fairly forgiving adjustment -- a wide range of settings producing similarly good results as mentioned above. What's most important is that ARC get to hear the output of the set of Subs AFTER you've done whatever you are going to do as regards Phase between them and with respect to the Mains.

Keep in mind that you can't get perfect Phase anyway. Each seating position will be different, and the Phase of the Subs will vary with respect to each of the Main speakers -- e.g., Center and the Surrounds.
--Bob
post #15428 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I want to upgrade but I can't justify it at this point.
Same here. I only use my 300 as a pre/pro and going to 5.1 and losing DTS-MA decoding is a step backward. I will probably just look for a used AVM 50v from this point on.
post #15429 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdv5 View Post

Check my original post again. I only need pre-pro functionality from the receiver. As for the center channel, each of the three speakers in the tri-center set-up has dedicated external amplification channel.

Sorry I was confused when you said this and thought you were exploring both options : "Do you folks think an Anthem receiver would be able to handle planar magnetic speakers? I only need the pre-pro capabilities in a receiver..."

So it was an ARC question not an MRX question. You might want to consider getting a used D2 with ARC. Also if you ask in the AVM50/D2/v forum you will probably get responses from other planar speaker owners, as it is very quiet there lately.
Edited by AVfile - 9/29/13 at 7:42pm
post #15430 of 16457
I'm using a MRX-500 to run a full Magneplanar system, 1.7's for L/R, CC3 for center, and a pair of MC1's for surrounds, also using the MRX's built in amps. ARC does a great job of EQ the Maggies, I prefer the sound with ARC on. One nice thing about ARC, you can select the max frequency that EQ is applied. I've tried different frequencies ranging from 300 Hz up to the 5Khz max, for the time being I'm leaving it at 5KHz.. The MRX's amps drive the Maggies w/o any issue, plays as loud and cleanly as I'd ever want (about -10 volume is the max I ever go), the receiver is warm after extended listening, but never uncomfortably so.
post #15431 of 16457
Thank you both, AVFile and EdS, for your feedback. Greatly appreciated.
post #15432 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchPope View Post

Same here. I only use my 300 as a pre/pro and going to 5.1 and losing DTS-MA decoding is a step backward. I will probably just look for a used AVM 50v from this point on.

As Nick mentioned you will not lose DTS-MA. It will still decode DTS-MA but they can not label due to the fact it has to be able to decode 7.1 which the 310 is not designed to do so. So if only need 5.1 the 310 will be able to decode all formats but just in 5.1.
post #15433 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTGOLFER View Post

As Nick mentioned you will not lose DTS-MA. It will still decode DTS-MA but they can not label due to the fact it has to be able to decode 7.1 which the 310 is not designed to do so. So if only need 5.1 the 310 will be able to decode all formats but just in 5.1.


Yet no one seems to know on the 510 and 710 (or any receiver for that matter) if 7.1 DTSMA bitstreamed into a 5.1 speaker system will give you DTS core lossy only OR DTSMA full lossless with just the extra 2 channels mixed down into the rears.

Seriously, no one seems to know for sure.
post #15434 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTGOLFER View Post

As Nick mentioned you will not lose DTS-MA. It will still decode DTS-MA but they can not label due to the fact it has to be able to decode 7.1 which the 310 is not designed to do so. So if only need 5.1 the 310 will be able to decode all formats but just in 5.1.
That's not what I got from Nick's response. I thought he said it would just decode the core of the DTS-HD MA stream.
post #15435 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchPope View Post

That's not what I got from Nick's response. I thought he said it would just decode the core of the DTS-HD MA stream.

Not as I understand it.

5.1 DTSMA to 5.1 speaker on any of the amps = DTSMA Lossless

7.1 DTSMA to 5.1 speaker on any of the amps = DTS Lossy Core only (1.5Mbps max)

7.1 DTSMA to 7.1 speaker on the 510 & 710 = DTSMA Losssless

7.1 DTSMA (bistream LPCM) to 5.1 speaker on any of the amps = DTSMA Lossless*. (shows as multi ch) on the display


*allegedly.
post #15436 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTGOLFER View Post

As Nick mentioned you will not lose DTS-MA. It will still decode DTS-MA but they can not label due to the fact it has to be able to decode 7.1 which the 310 is not designed to do so. So if only need 5.1 the 310 will be able to decode all formats but just in 5.1.
I probably should have added to my earlier post "losing DTS-HD MA for a 7.1 source is a step backwards, when I can do it on my 300. The extra processing power for ARC-1M doesn't make up for two missing channels in my case and I won't be buying one.
I think they have shot themselves in the foot, where they would get a lot of people hooked on Anthem gear with a $1000 AVR they can use as a pre/pro and then want to move up to something bigger later on. They should have kept the 7.1 (or went to 9.2) and taken the amps out to make a little brother to the AVM 50v and called it an MRX 350.
post #15437 of 16457
I gathered from Nick's response that 7.1 will be 5.1 with the DTS-MA showing on the 310. I guess I need to reread just in case.
post #15438 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchPope View Post

I probably should have added to my earlier post "losing DTS-HD MA for a 7.1 source is a step backwards, when I can do it on my 300. The extra processing power for ARC-1M doesn't make up for two missing channels in my case and I won't be buying one.
I think they have shot themselves in the foot, where they would get a lot of people hooked on Anthem gear with a $1000 AVR they can use as a pre/pro and then want to move up to something bigger later on. They should have kept the 7.1 (or went to 9.2) and taken the amps out to make a little brother to the AVM 50v and called it an MRX 350.


Yes, for you the 310 is no use, tho it could possibly sound better with the new ARCm1, you just wouldn't know till you try, but assuming that you've got the correct speakers and placement in the room, then giving up 2 channels only leaves you with going up to the 510. I wouldn't say they've shot themselves in the foot just yet the 310 isn't even finished yet. Remember the MRX900... ??



[edit] Having spoke to DTS themselves. 7.1 DTSMA sent to a capable reciever with a 5.1 speaker setup will not be be core lossy only, it will be lossless.

The MRX310 might not say DTSMA 3/4 when fed a 7.1 source because technically it doesn't have enough channels, but it will still pipe it out at 5.1 lossless and not core.

Everyone gets lossless, some people might not get a wee light coming on with 7.1 sources.smile.gif
Edited by Rock Danger - 9/30/13 at 11:02am
post #15439 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchPope View Post

I think they have shot themselves in the foot, where they would get a lot of people hooked on Anthem gear with a $1000 AVR

... only as far as one segment of our market is concerned, and the world is much bigger than that. Most people buy something and leave it that way for years. For the many people who have nowhere to put 7.1 speakers, a 5.1-channel model is exactly what they want. Much of the recent discussion wouldn't be happening if a. the 300 was also 5.1-channel or never existed, and b. enough people understood how DTS works.
post #15440 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Danger View Post

Yet no one seems to know on the 510 and 710 (or any receiver for that matter) if 7.1 DTSMA bitstreamed into a 5.1 speaker system will give you DTS core lossy only OR DTSMA full lossless with just the extra 2 channels mixed down into the rears.

Seriously, no one seems to know for sure.

... that is until the AIX test disc came along, and then it became generally known that playing DTS-MA 7.1 into a 5.1 speaker config meant core decoding only. If the volume sounds like it's 40 dB low from this test disc, then you're hearing core only as people with the disc, which includes all Oppo owners for a while, have discovered. Then they went to the internet.

Use these search terms: AIX test disc DTS-MA 5.1 lossy core - one result, copied below, happens to be page 141 of this very thread but you'll probably want to see the other results too, paying attention only to posters who have tried the test and have seen the results, and not to those who present pure assumption as if it's fact.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1289533/anthem-mrx-receivers-300-500-700-owners-thread-tweaking-guide/4200
post #15441 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

[quote name="MitchPope" url="/t/1289533/anthem-mrx-receivers-300-500-700-owners-thread-tweaking-guide/15420#post_23786437"]I think they have shot themselves in the foot, where they would get a lot of people hooked on Anthem gear with a $1000 AVR[/quote]... only as far as one segment of our market is concerned, and the world is much bigger than that. Most people buy something and leave it that way for years. For the many people who have nowhere to put 7.1 speakers, a 5.1-channel model is exactly what they want. Much of the recent discussion wouldn't be happening if a. the 300 was also 5.1-channel or never existed, and b. enough people understood how DTS works.

Hmm so I invested in a 300 put heights in and now tough mate? Im not feeling the love.....
post #15442 of 16457
BUT...the 300 is best bloody thing ive ever had in mt room, seriously, ill have to fill some holes i suppose
post #15443 of 16457
To clear it up it would be a 510 i wanted , but if I cant have wides have the sofa on the back wall so cant fit 7.1 in like that im stuffed i guess
post #15444 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

... that is until the AIX test disc came along, and then it became generally known that playing DTS-MA 7.1 into a 5.1 speaker config meant core decoding only. If the volume sounds like it's 40 dB low from this test disc, then you're hearing core only as people with the disc, which includes all Oppo owners for a while, have discovered. Then they went to the internet.

Use these search terms: AIX test disc DTS-MA 5.1 lossy core - one result, copied below, happens to be page 141 of this very thread but you'll probably want to see the other results too, paying attention only to posters who have tried the test and have seen the results, and not to those who present pure assumption as if it's fact.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1289533/anthem-mrx-receivers-300-500-700-owners-thread-tweaking-guide/4200

Just set the player to LPCM as discussed in the link.

I still think that there will be zero audio improvements with the new "ARC" If I did not owned an Anthem, the 510 is the one to get. This is the best AVR in my opinion.
post #15445 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Devil 24 View Post

I saw that' it's written 8ohms bellow the speaker post, can it handle 4ohms and if yes how much power?

That depends on how many 4-ohm speakers you're about to use. Using them on all channels is not recommended but I've never seen an issue when using them just for the front three plus sub, or with the front L/R playing full range (no sub). With a sub and bass management, some of the the load is taken away from the amp.

In the opposite case, electrostatic speakers where the low impedance comes in on the upper end, the level from source material isn't high enough to pose an issue for the amp. Some of the MRX testers are co-workers at our sister company Martin-Logan, and not one related issue was reported for either MRX generation in use with the elecrostats.
post #15446 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by philb37 View Post

Hmm so I invested in a 300 put heights in and now tough mate? Im not feeling the love.....

Not sure I understand... why exactly are you looking to replace your 300?
post #15447 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

Just set the player to LPCM as discussed in the link.

Most logical and practical, but then look at the seemingly endless discussions circa 2007-2008 around urges to go from HDMI 1.1 equipment to 1.3 only because of where (not necessarily how) the decoding would happen.
post #15448 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Danger View Post

Yet no one seems to know on the 510 and 710 (or any receiver for that matter) if 7.1 DTSMA bitstreamed into a 5.1 speaker system will give you DTS core lossy only OR DTSMA full lossless with just the extra 2 channels mixed down into the rears.

Seriously, no one seems to know for sure.

... that is until the AIX test disc came along, and then it became generally known that playing DTS-MA 7.1 into a 5.1 speaker config meant core decoding only. If the volume sounds like it's 40 dB low from this test disc, then you're hearing core only as people with the disc, which includes all Oppo owners for a while, have discovered. Then they went to the internet.

Use these search terms: AIX test disc DTS-MA 5.1 lossy core - one result, copied below, happens to be page 141 of this very thread but you'll probably want to see the other results too, paying attention only to posters who have tried the test and have seen the results, and not to those who present pure assumption as if it's fact.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1289533/anthem-mrx-receivers-300-500-700-owners-thread-tweaking-guide/4200

The thing is, if you play the Disney "WOW World of Wonder", Blu-ray, DTS-HD MA 7.1 test track in a 5.1 speaker configuration, you get ALL 7.1 channels (down-mixed to 5.1 speaker output)! Which means it can't be decoding just the Core, right? Something is different between the AIX encode and Disney's encode and I've got no clue what it is.

There's more weird stuff going on with DTS than you can shake a stick at.
--Bob
post #15449 of 16457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The thing is, if you play the Disney "WOW World of Wonder", Blu-ray, DTS-HD MA 7.1 test track in a 5.1 speaker configuration, you get ALL 7.1 channels (down-mixed to 5.1 speaker output)! Which means it can't be decoding just the Core, right? Something is different between the AIX encode and Disney's encode and I've got no clue what it is.

There's more weird stuff going on with DTS than you can shake a stick at.
--Bob

Where are your contacts at DTS or AIX? smile.gif
post #15450 of 16457
I have a quick question for MRX300 owners. I am considering picking one up used, but I am concerned about the dimensions because of the design of the rack I am using, and there is nowhere local where I can check it out myself. The specs are 17.25in wide by 15.25in deep (43.9cm by 39.0cm). The question is, what does this include? Can someone with easy access to a unit do a quick measurement for me? I need to know the size of the chassis itself, both depth (faceplate to backplane, not including knobs or connectors) and width (chassis only, not including faceplate). Please?
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