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Anthem MRX Receivers - 300, 500, 700 Owners Thread & Tweaking Guide - Page 518

post #15511 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

Legairre, we know these things:

1. Results vary by disc. Even two test discs do not even lead to same result (AIX vs WOW). So, do not draw conclusions from just a few discs, whatever they may be.

2. The MRX gen1 display is showing conflicting info. I have no idea whether this was intentional and has some hidden meaning, or if it is just a glitch. So, do not draw any conclusion from this either.

3. Whatever the result, what's to say it's the wrong result? The model is dts-certified and so far nothing says that it works differently from anything else that underwent the same certification.

If I get a chance I'll try both test discs on a MRX 700 with 7.1 output but I don't have one hooked up right now.
Thank you Nick. I've tried a ton of BDs and have gotten the same result off each one. What I'm was trying to figure out is if the gen1 MRX display is wrong or if it's decoding to the core track. According to your #2 response you are confirming that the display is showing conflicting info so I'm assuming we don't know what it's really doing. If I'm misunderstanding your response please correct me.

Also by no means am I saying decoding to the core is wrong if that is how DTS works. I originally tried this because I'm considering a 310 as an upgrade and wanted to know if 7.1 HD audio would loose anything going to a 5.1 310. Looking at the display when pressing audio led me to believe that I would get the core DTS 5.1 track when 7.1 is played on a 5.1 300.

If you try it on your 700 (7.1 system) you'll have to run re-run ARC and configure it as a 5.1 system other wise you won't see DTS 5.1 displayed when pressing audio.

Thank you for your reply
Legairre
Edited by Legairre - 10/1/13 at 6:00pm
post #15512 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I'm talking about a 7.1 track decoded for 5.1 speakers. The Core component of a DTS-HD MA 7.1 track only contains 5.1 channels. Ever. Since the Disney WOW, Blu-ray, DTS-HD MA 7.1 track is producing Rear Surround audio in the Side Surround speakers, we know for certain the decode is *NOT* just of the Core component, regardless of what's in the display.

That said, if you have Secondary Audio mixing enabled in your player, a DTS-HD MA track will NOT be output by the player as a DTS-HD MA Bitstream. It will typically be output as a DTS Bitstream (and thus also limited to 5.1). Which would explain what you are seeing in the display.

Again, I'm only referring to the new, 310/510/710 units. (I have no experience with the original units.)
--Bob

If I understand what he is saying, he is playing the same movie, same settings on the Blu-ray player (no external changes to anything); the only change he is making is to the settings in the MRX (he is changing the settings from a 7.1 setup to a 5.1 setup). When he plays everything while the MRX is configured for 7.1, the MRX displays it is decoding & outputting DTS-HD MA 7.1. When he configures the MRX to a 5.1 configuration, (using the same input device and same settings on the Blu-ray player), the MRX shows it is outputting DTS 5.1 (same output as when playing a DVD which cannot be HD audio. To me it sounds like he is right and on the existing units, they are only getting non-HD audio if configured to be 5.1.

Note: I own neither an original x00 or x10 unit. I had been firmly in the Anthem camp and convinced I would buy Anthem, now I am not sure, and not sure whether I prefer the original series or the new, stripped down second generation units.
post #15513 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Ran ARC and told ARC my 7.1 system only has 5.1 speakers. From the pics you can see I'm running 1080p/24 as my resolution and the second pic shows what is displayed when audio is pressed. Secondary audio is not enabled.
. . . .

I don't have one of those, so I don't know what that 2nd display is supposed to MEAN, but obviously you are getting the DTS-HD MA 7.1 as input. I misunderstood, as I thought you were saying the IINPUT format into the MRX was only DTS 5.1.

At a guess, that 2nd display simply means the player is in DTS 5.1 surround mode -- i.e., not one of the other audio surround modes. That naming would typically be used even for DTS-HD MA to 5.1 speakers (because the end of the line needs to save space for volume info).

In any event, if you have the Disney WOW, Blu-ray you can try it yourself. Play their DTS-HD MA 7.1 channel test and see if the Rear Surround audio is coming out of the Side Surrounds or not.
--Bob
post #15514 of 16451
Hello Nick,
Yes I made sure that all the settings in my Oppo were turned off. The difference in sound is that the Sound stage is deeper, and the effects are much more detailed. Big difference.
post #15515 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_Collins View Post

If I understand what he is saying, he is playing the same movie, same settings on the Blu-ray player (no external changes to anything); the only change he is making is to the settings in the MRX (he is changing the settings from a 7.1 setup to a 5.1 setup). When he plays everything while the MRX is configured for 7.1, the MRX displays it is decoding & outputting DTS-HD MA 7.1. When he configures the MRX to a 5.1 configuration, (using the same input device and same settings on the Blu-ray player), the MRX shows it is outputting DTS 5.1 (same output as when playing a DVD which cannot be HD audio. To me it sounds like he is right and on the existing units, they are only getting non-HD audio if configured to be 5.1.

Note: I own neither an original x00 or x10 unit. I had been firmly in the Anthem camp and convinced I would buy Anthem, now I am not sure, and not sure whether I prefer the original series or the new, stripped down second generation units.
Thank you Bob you stated exactly what I'm doing.
post #15516 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I don't have one of those, so I don't know what that 2nd display is supposed to MEAN, but obviously you are getting the DTS-HD MA 7.1 as input. I misunderstood, as I thought you were saying the IINPUT format into the MRX was only DTS 5.1.

At a guess, that 2nd display simply means the player is in DTS 5.1 surround mode -- i.e., not one of the other audio surround modes. That naming would typically be used even for DTS-HD MA to 5.1 speakers (because the end of the line needs to save space for volume info).

In any event, if you have the Disney WOW, Blu-ray you can try it yourself. Play their DTS-HD MA 7.1 channel test and see if the Rear Surround audio is coming out of the Side Surrounds or not.
--Bob
Bob I'm not so sure that is correct. When the system is configured as 7.1 the second row displays "None". But if you hit the audio button twice you can cycle through the available modes and it displays DTS.5.1, Dolby VS Ref, DTS-HD Stereo.

When configured as 7.1 the "None" setting is the default with the top row displaying DTS HD Master and you can press audio twice and make it down mix to the other formats including DTS 5.1 So it would seem that when the system is configured as 5.1 instead of 7.1 the second row (if correct) is showing a down mix to DTS 5.1.

I'm going to upload my saved ARC 5.1 configuration and see if pressing audio twice allows me to turn off DTS 5.1 and get the second row to display "None" as it does when configured as 7.1
Edited by Legairre - 10/1/13 at 6:52pm
post #15517 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_Collins View Post

the MRX shows it is outputting DTS 5.1

A decoder doesn't output anything but pcm!
post #15518 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

If you try it on your 700 (7.1 system) you'll have to run re-run ARC and configure it as a 5.1 system other wise you won't see DTS 5.1 displayed when pressing audio.

You're seeing a different result after loading a 5.1 ARC configuration vs simply disabling the back channels in the MRX bass manager?
post #15519 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

So it would seem that when the system is configured as 5.1 instead of 7.1 the second row (if correct) is showing a down mix to DTS 5.1.

There is no such thing as down mix to DTS 5.1 since there is no encoder in the AVR. First the encoded input is decoded to pcm, and then it is downmixed while in pcm. This is the only way a signal gets processed - when it's decoded.

I think you and Bob P may be on to something here... the second line may simply be trying to say that output is 5.1, as opposed to stereo wide etc. In this case it should have just said "5.1" or "none" instead of "DTS 5.1" but then the intention may have been to indicate that remapping is also occurring, hence the "DTS" part, in other words a DTS post-process not an encoding. I may never know because all this was spec'd over 4 years ago and I have no idea of the whereabouts of the person who did so. One thing is for sure, the AVR plays what it gets - it's not like it's taking lossless data and throwing part of it away just for fun. That would make no sense at all.
post #15520 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_Collins View Post

stripped down second generation units.

A lot more things were added than deleted. The deletions were the media player, a plethora of legacy analog video connections, front panel buttons, and making the entry level 5.1. I won't list the additions here because a 4-page document already has that info. These days it can be downloaded straight from the www.anthemav.com home page.
Edited by Nick @ Anthem - 10/1/13 at 7:34pm
post #15521 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

The format is displayed the moment that bitstream is acquired on new series incl. 310.

I am sure this can be fixed with FW update on the current models.
post #15522 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I am sure this can be fixed with FW update on the current models.

What exactly? The display is supposed to show the incoming format once it's locked onto, and it does show "Master Audio" for the first few seconds.
post #15523 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

And Core + Extensions is not Core, even after a down-mix. There's more information in the down-mix.

Folks I think this is good news. The AIX test may be misleading.
--Bob

Sorry but AIX test is corrected
post #15524 of 16451
^ Well Disney figured out how to author it so it works, so I'm not so sure.
--Bob
post #15525 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

Sorry but AIX test is corrected

Can you back that up? Are you certain that modified levels for core are even allowed? That's at least one trick soundtracks don't normally have.
post #15526 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

You're seeing a different result after loading a 5.1 ARC configuration vs simply disabling the back channels in the MRX bass manager?
I never tried just disabling the backs in bass manager because I wanted to simulate as closely as possible a 5.1 so I ran ARc as a 5.1 config.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

There is no such thing as down mix to DTS 5.1 since there is no encoder in the AVR. First the encoded input is decoded to pcm, and then it is downmixed while in pcm. This is the only way a signal gets processed - when it's decoded.

I think you and Bob P may be on to something here... the second line may simply be trying to say that output is 5.1, as opposed to stereo wide etc. In this case it should have just said "5.1" or "none" instead of "DTS 5.1" but then the intention may have been to indicate that remapping is also occurring, hence the "DTS" part, in other words a DTS post-process not an encoding. I may never know because all this was spec'd over 4 years ago and I have no idea of the whereabouts of the person who did so. One thing is for sure, the AVR plays what it gets - it's not like it's taking lossless data and throwing part of it away just for fun. That would make no sense at all.
Ok so I've run as 7.1 and 5.1 and here's what I've found. It doesn't matter if you're configured as 5.1 or 7.1 the MRX will allow you to change the audio format for a 7.1 BD in both modes to either of the images below by pressing audio twice and using the up/down navigation buttons.

I'm assuming "none" means you're getting the 7.1 HD mix (3/4) on a 5.1 system or of course 7.1 system. While the other modes in the pics are the different modes you can switch to. DTS-HD Stereo only used my two main speakers, Dolby VS Ref only used my two main speakers, Dolby VS Wide only used my two main speakers and DTS 5.1 used 5 speakers whether I was configured as 5.1 or 7.1.

So it seems it's REAL important to make sure what mode the MRX is defaulting to by pressing audio so that you're not playing DTS 5.1(or some other mode) when you should have it set to "none" even if you have a 7.1 system. So to Nick and Bob is the DTS 5.1, DTS-HD MA 5.1 or the core DTS 5.1. To me it doesn't really matter as long as I know I just have to make sure it's set to "none" and I'm getting 7.1 on a 5.1 or 7.1 system.

To kind of put an end to this the MRX WILL play 7.1 DTS-HD MA on a 5.1 system as long as you're set to NONE when pressing the audio button. If it's not set to none by default press audio twice and use the up/down navigation buttons to cycle through until you see none. BTW pressing twice cycles no matter if it's a 5.1 or 7.1 disk.

Nick and Bob could the "Last Used" setting in the menus possibly effect what what the default is set to when pressing audio? what I'm saying is if I last played a DTS 5.1 DVD is that why mine defaulted to DTS 5.1 and not none?






Edited by Legairre - 10/1/13 at 8:19pm
post #15527 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

What exactly? The display is supposed to show the incoming format once it's locked onto, and it does show "Master Audio" for the first few seconds.

I think that there are some confusions. Bob is my go to person for everything but the AIX disc is correct. Don't know WOW. In fact you linked my discussion with him on this subject. The MRX proved this with all my 7.1 DTSMA discs with 5.1 setup.

If you look at the pix that is posted, it has DTSMA and DTS. With bit = DTS but LPCM= DTSMA.


The display on the MRX is misleading and give the end users the impression that they are getting DTSMA when they are not with bit.

I will call tech support and explain this.
post #15528 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

I never tried just disabling the backs in bass manager because I wanted to simulate as closely as possible a 5.1 so I ran ARc as a 5.1 config.
Ok so I've run as 7.1 and 5.1 and here's what I've found. It doesn't matter if you're configured as 5.1 or 7.1 the MRX will allow you to change the audio format for a 7.1 BD in both modes to either of the images below by pressing audio twice and using the up/down navigation buttons.

I'm assuming "none" means you're getting the 7.1 HD mix (3/4) on a 5.1 system or of course 7.1 system. While the other modes in the pics are the different modes you can switch to. DTS-HD Stereo only used my two main speakers, Dolby VS Ref only used my two main speakers, Dolby VS Wide only used my two main speakers and DTS 5.1 used 5 speakers whether I was configured as 5.1 or 7.1.

So it seems it's REAL important to make sure what mode the MRX is defaulting to by pressing audio so that you're not playing DTS 5.1(or some other mode) when you should have it set to "none" even if you have a 7.1 system. So to Nick and Bob is the DTS 5.1, DTS-HD MA 5.1 or the core DTS 5.1. To me it doesn't really matter as long as I know I just have to make sure it's set to "none" and I'm getting 7.1 on a 5.1 or 7.1 system.

To kind of put an end to this the MRX WILL play 7.1 DTS-HD MA on a 5.1 system as long as you're set to NONE when pressing the audio button. If it's not set to none by default press audio twice and use the up/down navigation buttons to cycle through until you see none. BTW pressing twice cycles no matter if it's a 5.1 or 7.1 disk.

Nick and Bob could the "Last Used" setting in the menus possibly effect what what the default is set to when pressing audio? what I'm saying is if I last played a DTS 5.1 DVD is that why mine defaulted to DTS 5.1 and not none?






Thanks for the pix! I will call tech support tom.
post #15529 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

Can you back that up? Are you certain that modified levels for core are even allowed? That's at least one trick soundtracks don't normally have.

Sure all my 7.1 blu ray discs are supporting AIX conclusion with a 5.1 setup using bit. FYI, for me it is not a major issue but for the average users, they are missing out if they have a 5.1 setup.
post #15530 of 16451
^ For all I know the original units are doing it differently (which would be consistent with what you are saying). But with the new units, we know that we can get 7.1 distinct channels of DTS-HD MA 7.1 from that Disney WOW, Blu-ray, to come out on 5.1 speakers. There's simply no way that could happen if the new units were decoding just the Core. Right?

I suspect in that case the AIX authoring is detecting the 7.1 to 5.1 decode and assuming it must be wrong -- so it is imposing it's odd authoring to kill off the volume, and as a side-effect is discarding the Rear Channels.

Nick I think the new Spears & Munsil also offers a DTS-HD MA 7.1 test.
--Bob
post #15531 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

In any event, if you have the Disney WOW, Blu-ray you can try it yourself. Play their DTS-HD MA 7.1 channel test and see if the Rear Surround audio is coming out of the Side Surrounds or not.
--Bob
Bob if you pop in your WOW disc or any other disc, I'm betting dollars to doughnuts you can press audio twice and make it any of the formats I posted pics of by pressing audio twice and using the up/down navigation buttons. I think this explains why we have been seeing different results. I bet our systems are defaulting differently for some reason.
post #15532 of 16451
^ In my testing I'm using NONE audio mode. It really should not matter what audio mode you have selected. Since the content has more channels than the available speakers there's no work for a surround mode TO DO. I.e., 7.1 content played into 5.1 speakers should always work as if NONE was selected.

Surround modes are about how fewer audio channels get EXPANDED into more speakers of output. The other direction -- Down-mixing -- is not altered.
--Bob
post #15533 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

I never tried just disabling the backs in bass manager because I wanted to simulate as closely as possible a 5.1 so I ran ARc as a 5.1 config.

So it seems it's REAL important to make sure what mode the MRX is defaulting to by pressing audio so that you're not playing DTS 5.1(or some other mode)

ARC just tells the bass manager to turn off the back channels, which is the same internally as the menu telling it. The microprocessor just sees a "turn them off" command and it doesn't care where it started.

Normally I'd respond after trying things but in this case I think the answer is getting close. Novel idea: Check the manual! Page 21 says the DTS listening mode presets are, "None, Neo:6...etc" in other words it says Neo instead of DTS. Same order, different terminology. This I'm sure of: Surround upmix selections are ignored by the DSP when they do not apply to the speaker configuration, in other words forget what the displayed listening mode says (and listen with your ears not your eyes). So if you select a 7.1 output mode and you don't have 7.1 speakers, the only difference going on is in the little blue lights. If you select "DTS 5.1" and your configuration is 7.1, it may very well mean that Neo:6 processing is being applied.

I can't say this enough - there is no encoder in the MRX, only a decoder and post-processes in pcm. It does not create lossy 5.1, or anything else for that matter. Downmix is a process not a lossy encoding. The AVR decodes the input that the source gives it and processes it in pcm, ONLY pcm. Then it's off to the DAC, the analog volume control, and the output.
post #15534 of 16451
Thanks Bob, yes since you are set to NONE you will get as you've said 7.1 on a 5.1 system. The key is to make sure it's set to none. Thanks for hanging in there while I leaned how the audio button twice thing works. I'm assuming I'm no the only person who just leaned this because I haven't seen anyone post on how to do this during these 7.1 to 5.1 post over the last week.
post #15535 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Bob if you pop in your WOW disc or any other disc, I'm betting dollars to doughnuts you can press audio twice

I wouldn't bet on that. Gen2 doesn't have a multipurpose Audio button. It has a single-function Mode button. Earlier I said the UI between the two series is so different that 90% of the manual had to be rewritten, and that may be a conservative estimate.
post #15536 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

ARC just tells the bass manager to turn off the back channels, which is the same internally as the menu telling it. The microprocessor just sees a "turn them off" command and it doesn't care where it started.

Normally I'd respond after trying things but in this case I think the answer is getting close. Novel idea: Check the manual! Page 21 says the DTS listening mode presets are, "None, Neo:6...etc" in other words it says Neo instead of DTS. Same order, different terminology. This I'm sure of: Surround upmix selections are ignored by the DSP when they do not apply to the speaker configuration, in other words forget what the displayed listening mode says (and listen with your ears not your eyes). So if you select a 7.1 output mode and you don't have 7.1 speakers, the only difference going on is in the little blue lights. If you select "DTS 5.1" and your configuration is 7.1, it may very well mean that Neo:6 processing is being applied.

I can't say this enough - there is no encoder in the MRX, only a decoder and post-processes in pcm. It does not create lossy 5.1, or anything else for that matter. Downmix is a process not a lossy encoding. The AVR decodes the input that the source gives it and processes it in pcm, ONLY pcm. Then it's off to the DAC, the analog volume control, and the output.
Understood Nick, but what am I getting if I play a 7.1 BD on a 7.1 or 5.1 system and select Dolby VS Ref for instance? When I did this only my two main speakers were playing. Was it mixing the 7 .1 into my two main speakers?
post #15537 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

Sure all my 7.1 blu ray discs are supporting AIX conclusion with a 5.1 setup using bit. FYI, for me it is not a major issue but for the average users, they are missing out if they have a 5.1 setup.

I don't follow. AIX shows a huge level difference because it's otherwise difficult to tell whether lossy or lossless is at play. Movies do not do this level change so how can you be sure that movies are being played the same way as the AIX disc especially when the Disney WOW disc, and I think Disney has put out a blockbuster film or three, does the opposite?
post #15538 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick @ Anthem View Post

I wouldn't bet on that. Gen2 doesn't have a multipurpose Audio button. It has a single-function Mode button. Earlier I said the UI between the two series is so different that 90% of the manual had to be rewritten, and that may be a conservative estimate.
Good one I had forgotten Bob only has gen2.
post #15539 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Understood Nick, but what am I getting if I play a 7.1 BD on a 7.1 or 5.1 system and select Dolby VS Ref for instance? When I did this only my two main speakers were playing. Was it mixing the 7 .1 into my two main speakers?

That's easy... VS = Virtual Surround. It's a mode that's meant to create a wide image from a pair of speakers. I don't know how useful it is unless one only uses two speakers, but it's there and that's what it's meant for.
post #15540 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

The display on the MRX is misleading and give the end users the impression that they are getting DTSMA when they are not with bit.

I will call tech support and explain this.

If you wish but they'll only relay the answer I give to them because things like this are forwarded to me. I have already stated here a couple of times the inconsistencies of the AIX disc, and more than a couple of times that the AVR doesn't invent soundtracks. If it sees MA it says MA. If it sees DTS it says DTS. It does not turn MA into DTS-lossy just for fun, nor does it have the capability. What we're not sure of, but it would make sense, is that when it says DTS 5.1 in the LISTENING MODE part of the display, which is not the INPUT FORMAT part of the display, it's trying to say that it's applying Neo:6 IF you have enough speakers, and if not, then it's doing nothing.

There is no new info in the post above but have I at least made it clear yet?
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