**Official Ascend Acoustics Tower Thread** - Page 34

Supposedly the smaller Accuton mid in the Tempesta was chosen because the larger one has ringing in the audible range that requires some tricks with the crossover. The smaller one also is constructed so it doesn't require it's own compartment separate from the tweeter.
They are on my very short list right now.
Salk does make an Accuton mid 3-way under $5k, but it's a monitor, not a floor stander.

No argument here. Just interesting how perceptions differ.

The punch I refer to is above 80hz.

Yes, the Rythmik should mate well to most speakers, but it is where you mate it. I could not get my Hsu to blend seamless to my Sierra-1s in my room unless I crossed at 60hz or below. Above 60hz, the speakers just seemed cleaner. When I got the Rythmik, that changed and I can cross higher with no change in perception. This was with proper phase integration for both.

Sierra-1 is delicate?

I'm no Bass head in any sense of the word, but I do need some good bass when listening to some house music, or trance tunes, or music like Depeche Mode.Were I do need the slam, I've been caught off guard when I had my receiver in either direct mode, or stereo which out realizing it were the sub wasn't on and getting some slam out of my Towers. I do regularly play music with my JL sub though, but I've come to a conclusion that I don't need it when playing 75% of the music I like.
So you can get away with not having a sub for most music listening, for movies that's another story.


Djoel

You all have to understand that the preference for Ascend's business/engineering model is to work with driver vendors that will work with Dave to achieve what he needs. That typically means the vendor needs to be willing to customize. Even the RAAL, which Dave has said is the best tweeter he has measured, changed the faceplate and housing for Ascend.

None of the drivers that Ascend (all speakers) uses are "off the shelf"...the RAAL comes the closest.

Ascend also purchases all drivers directly from the OEMs...not a speaker parts dealer of some sort. This also helps in hitting price points.

When I demoed the Towers with my music material, I agree, a sub was not needed.

That isn't to say I wouldn't use one though.

Yeah once you hear low room compressing bass it's hard to go without, It's great to have one and not need it than need one and not have one kind of deal

DJoel

Assuming he actually meant 'settle' instead of 'Seatle', then it looks like RicardoJoa is already on that same page. He, he did say ....

Yeah...but I was not actually directing towards his comment, but to those that were "asking" for an Accuton mid.

Thanx, just wanted to calibrate your comments.

Well, yea i think they are delicate. In a good sense. Seriously, i have listen to it for very long time at close proximaty (4 feet), and it never fatigues. With my altec, it can fatigue. Also, i think delicate is right since there is the NRT version for more sizle and forward prensentation

Interesting when you say you prefer above 80HZ bass. I personally think both the ST and altec has better presentation in this area. It just seems to have more tactile bass to it.

Thanks for correcting

Hi Ricardo,

You have made many references to cone material in comparing your $900/pr Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers to your $2K/pair SongTowers and I wish you would stop attributing performance / detail to cone material. The differences you hear between the two speakers have absolutely nothing to do with cone material and as I have mentioned before, cone material is a minimal contributing factor to driver performance.

In comparison to your SongTowers, the stock Sierra-1 do not have quite as detailed a midrange response because we designed a woofer that has considerably higher moving mass (3-4 grams more) combined with being a bit less stiff than the woofer cones in the SongTower. The reason for this is that we wanted a bookshelf speaker with an extremely wide bandwidth, a small speaker that can also reproduce surprising bass. For a woofer to reproduce bass, it requires mass. In my experience, assuming a well designed motor assembly, the lesser the moving mass - the greater the detail. The woofers in the SongTowers are simply not capable of reproducing the bass that our Sierra-1 woofer is capable of. To compensate, they use a very large internal cabinet volume that creates a resonance at a specific frequency to enhance bass response. We could have done the same with the Sierra-1, but than it would no longer be a bookshelf speaker.

We chose PP (actually, mineral filled PP) as the cone material of choice because in designing our woofer cones, by varying mineral content (typically talc and/or silica) and cone thickness, we can choose 2 critical aspects of performance - cone mass and stiffness. This allows us to have full control over the balance between bass response, detail, and cone breakup modes. This is nearly impossible to accomplish with any other cone material.

Comparing performance from one well designed PP cone woofer to a different well designed PP cone is like comparing one tire to another, they are both rubber but that is where it ends

The midrange woofer cone in the Sierra Tower has higher mineral content and is also less thick. It is much stiffer and lighter in comparison to the Sierra-1 woofer and is also quite a bit lighter than the woofers used in the SongTower (approximately 3 grams lighter). If you were to actually feel our two different cones, you will notice quickly that there is a considerable difference in stiffness. Surprisingly enough, the moving mass of our midrange woofer and the Accuton being mentioned is very close.

I hope that one day you will get to hear the Sierra Towers, at which time I am quite confident that your opinions on cone materials will quickly change...


I have had very similar experiences with ceramic drivers, even tweeters - and I am not a fan of inserting parallel or series notch filters to compensate as these introduce other performance compromises. There is no ideal solution no matter what the cost of the component.


I agree 100% and our huge Rythmik customer base also agrees - these are exceedingly tight and punchy subwoofers. Several times each month I am at some form of live music presentation and I have yet to hear a subwoofer that reproduces a live kick drum as accurately.

Ahh...I didn't understand what you meant by using "delicate"...now I do.

Songtower compared to the Sierra-1 bookshelf, yes, the Songtower has more tactile bass...it has more bass. Definitely not the case when the Songtower is compared to the Sierra Tower.

I guess I keep getting confused because you are comparing the Sierra-1 to the Songtower...not apples to apples.

Since when i made any reference to cone material in comparing "your 900 sierra to the ST in this post? I will admit it i made that comment in the past and you have said you have explained to me and i greatly apreciate it, but not in this post. I wish you would stop making false acusation. Seriously! I did not mention anything about performance vs cone material, i said a change in cone material, if you have that misundertood, it is not my fault. Cant people have preference in cone material just for the their preference? Ever wonder why SS make aluminum and paper based illuminator 7'' driver?
Im sure you know speaker designs involves in trade off, there is good and bad in using any cone material.

Yeah I was quite perplex too on some of the comparisons on the above posts,wasn't sure if they were comparing the Sierra1's wit the Towers, Sierra with the Songtower, the Towers against the Songtowers.

Djoel

Ricardo...I don't understand this reply.

What exactly are you referencing when you say a change in driver material? Dave, in his reply, is explaining his reasoning as to why driver material is not very important.

That was one of his customers comments, not sure if it is from Rick. There is advantage in using the smaller driver and one as you already mentioned is that there is no need to build a seperate compartment for the mid.

There is no point in arguing, at least i wasnt refering anything to cone material with regard to my comparison between the sierra and the ST.
Wether it is important or not, it really depends on how you look at it. Otherwise Dave wouldnt choose PP over the other right?

Nobody is arguing. More than one of us is tying to understand why you are in the Sierra Tower thread comparing the Sierra-1 bookshelf to the Songtower, as well as wishing for different drivers and driver materials.

Yes, it depends how you look at it, I'm trying to understand your preference...not argue with you.

Dave explained how the PP drivers are used and why.

Hi Ricardo,

Sorry -- your post confused me because of our past conversations and this statement that you made:
Everyone is certainly entitled to their own preference in cone materials, I have never said otherwise.

What feeds your desire for a change in driver materials? Honestly, I am just curious about this... I have 4 interesting SEAS mid-woofers sitting right next to me with some rather exotic cone materials...

Cone materials are something I have always been extremely interested in, dating back almost as far as I can remember. It was this interest and experimentation that led us to producing the only affordable "Aerogel" based loudspeaker at the time. Aerogel was very lightweight and stiff, but proved to be too brittle and inconsistent from batch to batch. We even came close to using a bamboo fiber / pulp mix cone in our Sierra-1 woofer but I found the internal damping characteristics to vary considerably from one woofer to another such that it made crossover optimization nearly impossible.

Yes, every aspect in loudspeaker design involves compromises. Improve this characteristic, compromise that characteristic. This is precisely one of the reasons we like to get involved in designing our transducers, at least as much as we are able, so that we can try and balance those compromises to better suit our design goals.

See this is why I chose a pair of Sierra RAAL towers when I can pretty much get any speaker at any price... The passion and attention to details that Dave invested in his products are simply astounding. That no BS decoration and minimalistic approach that can be proven as measured fit me quite well

I'm already making plans to fit my new 8 floor office building with Ascends...

Can't wait to hear what you think of the Towers. It must be a fortune for shipping all the way to Asia?

I was looking at your signature thread, you're not big on acoustic panels, or diffusers. Do you feel your room/s are fine without or are you using some sort of DSP room correction software in your SSP/AVR?

Cheers

Djoel

Total Shipping going through 3 countries to get here is cheaper than I thought at $600 after working out to avoid VAT twice The plastic bag that holds the feet was torn and screws etc were all scattered inside one of the boxes but the multiple wraps of the tower prevented any scratch. Imagine my anxiety when opening those boxes after the trips they've gone through...

Yes I've been refraining from making a review due to room issues. When my listening room is done a year from now then I'll do some serious comparisons. I can say though that it is the best conventional non array speakers I've heard in my room. Actually I can confidently say that the Sierra Tower is the most well rounded performer I've ever auditioned or owned given its size. Plays house trance to classicals equally well, a sign of a great speaker. I'll be pitting it against my neighbor's Apogees in his $200K system.

Would like to do EQ and correction but can't find a good digital spdif in + out EQ unit yet.

Take a look at the Audyssey results of your room...I think your model receiver shows the EQ being applied. You can also run your own sweeps using a laptop and the home depot mic. In my room (which looks similar to yours), I have all sorts of spikes and dips in treble and bass in certain frequencies.

http://www.ada.net/products/ht/teq_trinnov.php

Not exactly what you are looking for, but I highly suggest looking at it.

Dave,
Sorry for making you confused. Nothing against PP or ascend. I thouroughly enjoy the Sierra. I guess my desire with other come material might be because i already own speaker with PP driver,paper based drivers,maybe my next speaker i would want something different.
Another thing is that, considering two drivers with the same basic constructions but different in cone material,like the Scanspeak Iluminator, i cant imaging they would sound exaclty the same.

Anyway, im curious to your 4 sea mid-driver...are you up to new project?

Anxiety would be one word I'll use I was so nervous just getting them here from the west coast, everything thing went well, with just some minor damage to the cardboard boxes, which lead me to think they were greatly packaged with the thick fabric material.



I keep scratching my head, how well they do music so beautifully at the price point. I own a pair of Dali which are MRSP are about 6K, and these are way smoother on top, and just about the same bass, The Dali were about 15-18? deep much more imposing than the Towers.

I'm sure once you play around/ experiment with some RC to deal with any room anomalies they'll truly shine. I need a week off from work for myself and redo some things here and there.

Haha that will be a fun comparison, 200K Vs 3K..Have fun and let us know, the results.

Djoel

The Sierra Towers/Horizon with RAAL ribbons (and CBM170s for surrounds) arrived last week. Took 4 business days and a weekend to arrive. I was definitely nervous about the trip from California to New Jersey. All for nothing as the boxes arrived without a dent or scratch. Packaging was real good.

I installed the speakers this Monday, along with installation of a projection system. Blown away by the size of the Horizon. It's definitely imposing in a good way. I ran Audyssey XT32 right after speakers placement and connections.

So far, I've listened to some music, Aaron Neville and Phantom of the Opera soundtracks (soft stuff), as well as, some battle scenes from the movie 300. Very early on, my expectation is way exceeded. I'm really happy with my decision to purchase these speakers. I find the vocals and instruments great. Being a novice, the vocals are smooth, clear and crisp, especially female vocals. Instruments are handled real well. At times, I can close my eyes and envision the musicians/singers in front of me. I can best describe this by echoing Dan's words. These speakers play music beautifully and for me it's the top end that stands out. I had less time for a few battle scenes in 300, however, there's one scene where the legion is holding its ground against the Persians and you hear the screeching sound of blades against Legion armor. Fantastic as you feel like you're transported to the middle of the battle. The speakers also have wider dispersion than I thought they would. They're located in a large basement and have no problem filling the basement with sound. My basement is currently untreated, however, I placed an order yesterday for sound panels, front, side and back walls.

I demoed a lot of speakers over the past 4 months in the same, general price range or a little higher than the Sierra towers. The only speaker that I truly enjoyed as much as the Sierras was the Martin Logan Theos, except for the Theos very limited dispersion once outside of panels range. My initial impression is I will be listening to the Sierras for a long, long time.

Hi 357,



It is tough to move from a tower speaker to a bookshelf sized speaker for home theater where dynamics are concerned. Depending on how far back you are seated, 95dB peaks should actually be considered quite loud and the Sierra-1 might simply be running out of steam compared to your towers.

That said, our Sierra Towers offer exceptional dynamics and are a considerable step up from our Sierra-1. They will give you that "big" sound that you are after for home theater, and since you really liked the Sierra-1 for music, be assured that our towers provide even better performance

Our next batch of cabinets are in production right now so that means that if you want a gloss finish, now is the perfect time. Send us an email or give us a call to discuss your concerns regarding our 30-day satisfaction guarantee.

Take care!

Congratulations Rob

So happy you're enjoying your Towers, and it will only get better once you put up some panels as you'll hear more of what the speakers can do, than hearing the room shot around reflections of the room I can only imagine hearing Aaron Neville with his beautiful falsetto, and his faint honks slowly dissolve into nothingness..

Funny you mention Martin Logan, I was absolutely in love with a pair of Acents until I actually audition them and stood around the room, the sound stage crashed. I tend to sit on the side for some reason, and never feel the need to sit in the middle with these Anyway I'm ranting it's your hour

You enjoy those babies, and put up some pics some of us might not believe you

Dan