Just picked up a Panasonic TC-P50S2, not happy - Page 3

Talk about a thread getting off topic!!

You had the opportunity to have your black levels measure and put into perspective. You and I both know what happened with that.

A 58C7000 and 58C8000 is measurably and visually darker than your V10 with 2000 hours on it. You are not going to fool anyone with your claim.

Yes I do remember and its nothing against you. I did not want my TV calibrated anymore (friend had his done and I didnt not notice a difference) and to just have you come by to measure my black levels would have been wasting your time. If you are swinging by the philadelphia area anytime soon you can come over to measure my black levels if you want. Maybe it is my claim but my eyes are better then numbers and that will always be true for all consumers. numbers are as important as the dog crap on my front lawn.

Wow, talk about timing. I just received my December issue of Home Theater Magazine in the mail and they have a whole article on this subject. It's actually titled "Panasonic Black Level" An Extended Test by Thomas J. Norton.. Here are a few of the highlights.
The model tested is the TC-P50G20. The test began with 175 hours on the set and was fed a mid-brightness, full-white field at 40-60 IRE. Picture setting was (THX Picture Mode) and ran 24/7 for a total on time of approx. 2,700 hours or 2 years use at 4 hours per day. At the beginning of the test the set's black level, (Minolta LS-100 light meter) measured 0.0008. At the end of the test it measured 0.0008 and tickled 0.009. However, turning the set back on two days later, after an hour warm up, the black level measured 0.010 and snuck up on 0.011. 24 hours later it measured 0.009 and went up to 0.010 again.
His end question is, will this be a significant situation? Short of running similar tests on every set on the market, it's impossible to say. He does conclude that you're not likely to spot this degree of increase unless it happened just as you were watching a full-black screen.
He further concludes that "In other respects, this sets subjective performance- color, resolution, and all other important parameters that define a first rate HDTV equals a Home Theater Top Pick".

Awesome. All I need to know. It will be a long time before I get to 2700 hours.

Got mine on Monday

BTW you have an additional zero on some of your numbers.

You do realize this is a completely different reason compared to what you told me last year (Yes I do remember what you said and still have the emails). No worries but I think you learn how to be straight up and truthful...... the first time

I'm confused. Does it say that initially the set measured 0.0008 ftL and after the 2700 hours it measured somewhere in the 0.008 to 0.011 ftL range? That would seem reasonable but the numbers being used here are not clear.


Larry

I don't know if they're going to fix it or not, but I'm pretty sure I see Jesus' face in the dots. Connect the dots! :P

Sorry about the extra zero's. At the 175 hour test start the reading was 0.008. After 2700 hours the reading was 0.008 to almost 0.009. He turned it on again after 2 days and the numbers showed 0.010 to almost 0.11. 24 hours later the numbers were back down to the 0.009-0.010 range. His conclusion leads me to believe that 98% of owners would not notice a difference after 2700 hours and the other 2% would have to convince themselves that they notice.

Thomas Norton is correct about one big thing. It would be nice if all displays were ran through a 3,000 hour long term evaluation. The beginning and ending numbers would go a long way towards determining which display to buy. What a great shootout between Panny, Sammy, and LG. Maybe even a better shootout than the one between D-Nice and Star56.

I think Panasonic IS being held to a higher standard for 2 reasons - both related to the now-defunct Pioneer PDP Division:

1. Panasonic bought/traded/whatever the KURO technology almost 2 years ago now, and has been promising black levels that bridge the gap between the 9G Pioneers and the planned 10G Infinite Black panel.

2. Panasonic also was the recipient of some Pioneer engineers who were working on the KURO 10G technologies.

So, they have the technology AND the people to make deeper blacks that don't rise over time. We shouldn't STILL be waiting to see that. But what have they done? Decided that forcing 3D down everyone's throats is the best way to make friends and influence people.

I belong to a number of Forums here in Toronto, and that kind of talk would of gotten you banned for life here in Toronto, pretty silly that the Mod's let it continue..........

Could be that forum is small enough that mods read every post. We mostly rely on members reporting issues. With AVS's volume there's no way we can read every post - even if we got paid.

larry

Agreed. I do know that I have calibrated Pioneers and Samsungs that had much more than 3000 hours of use on them and exhibited no increased in MLL.

I don't think Panasonic is being held to a higher standard. I think they are being scrutinized much more than the competition because their displays are unusual compared to the norm and they promote them in a misleading way.

Infinite Black, 5,000,000:1 contrast ratio, etc., etc is very misleading when your displays change black levels for the worse over their lifespan.

One thing is for sure, nothing is going to change on their end unless people stop buying their product.

Oh please... you insult a senior contributor to the forum and someone who has a lot of experience in this area to wag your own phallus.

Just because you or others can't detect something or don't see the flaws doesn't mean others are the same. Panasonic charges a premium for their plasmas. They do so in part because they have the "best blacks" according to all reviews. To see how much best blacks are worth, look at how much a Pioneer plasma costs today, even used ones carry a huge premium well above the Panasonic VT25's with all the latest gizmos and 3d. Now, consider that those blacks are no longer "best" after a certain amount of hours of viewing. A huge competitive advantage gets removed. Certainly a lot of people don't see it, but they pay for it, because others recommend to them based on this information.

Up to 10% of people are color-blind to a degree, does that mean that I shouldn't care about accurate colors because so many people can't even tell the difference to begin with? Why even review TV's if most people can't tell the difference for the most part? It's a serious question.

I can't imagine buying a Porsche 997 TT with an advertised 473hp only to find out that after several months it actually goes down to 373hp. Most people would probably not notice, since they use about 20-70hp in their daily commutes, but I would notice. If I pay over $130k for that car and it loses 100hp, I don't want some 'wanker' telling me I should still be happy because it still handles better and looks better than a $20k Corolla. I didn't buy a Corolla. If I wanted the performance of a lesser product I'd just buy that product to begin with. I've actually had an experience like this with an aftermarket company who advertised certain power levels and said the results will be even better because their dyno measures low. Well, I bought the product and my "high-measuring" dyno measured even lower than theirs. It didn't turn out well for both of us. I lost over $5k in the whole mess and they lost a lot of sales and credibility as a result.

According to the cnet estimate, 2010 Panasonics will stabilize at 4500 hours tops. Now they could just engineer their sets to maintain a higher, sustainable black level like every other plasma manufacturer out there. Owners of other brands have measured their sets and the MLL doesn't change so really there's not much point in measuring every brand set for 4,500 or even 3,000 hours... at least not enough for reviewers to be spending tons and tons of money sitting there measuring them.

So far the only one that taken that fact for granted has been Panasonic. They assumed that by engineering the black level to rise after the return period was done and after reviewers had already finished testing sets that people wouldn't notice and wouldn't complain.

In the past, companies would send samples to reviewers and would sometimes tweak the products they sent for review and then gimp the ones they sent to stores. Reviewers caught on and generally stopped accepting samples submitted from companies in favor of grabbing retail units. Panasonic decided to get around this by engineering that difference into one and the same unit, figuring that reviewers and buyers would pay the most attention during the early period when blacks were still very black. They've been doing this several years now to justify their high cost over their competitors. It's unfair to their competition and it's additionally unfair to customers.

They really should just have their sets at the real black level from the get-go and let them stand on their own merits. If their sets are no darker than the competition, they should not engineer them to misrepresent that fact and make them appear darker. The other thing they could do would be to actually incorporate the kuro tech into their displays, but as we've seen they don't seem particularly inclined to do that... at least not on black levels where it matters the most.

^^ .. wonder if they're (Panasonic) setting their units on 'cruise control' for longevity reasons; maybe its not truely 100k hours at full strength after all.

At the very least they should affix to their plasmas a warning label which reads, "Caution: Objects Displayed Are Darker Than They Appear"

I must ask you a couple of questions based on the above response. Do you disagree with MR. Norton that the increase from a starting point of 0.008 to the final 0.008-0.010 after 2700 hours would be a non item to the viewer? When you noticed no increase in MLL in the Samsung, what was the starting level?
In a later post you say that "nothing is going to change (with Panasonic) on their end unless people stop buying their product". Is it then your personal position that people should stop buying Panasonic plasma's?

Which it sounds like you want to happen. Unless you log in heavy hours on the tv, I think this issue shouldn't stop someone from buying a Panasonic. It is too bad they aren't able to get to the level of a Pioneer but they do good in their own right. The reviews prove it to be true.

After reading on I realized that many take numbers as law.

Doubling and what not... The human eye is very very limited.

We only see a fraction of the light spectrum.

And can only distinguish 16 bit gray scale.

One must properly burn in their plasma before any calibration of settings.

Two turn off all the crap that automatically adjusts picture quality.

Three turn off sharpness if you can or adjust with a proper alignment grid.

Now what about the 2000 hours... is this through 2 to 4 hour day run times???

Lemme see here... Knowing that black levels will change every so often, does not mean you cannot recalibrate.

I am sorry too many people are so nit picky about numbers when most of the time numbers are only good for graphing. Eye candy for those who want to be on top.

To be honest a 20% out of ISF calibration will be hardly noticable. Not to slam getting an ISF calibration. Just why make such a big thing out of low cost equipment.

Put a low cost Plasma HDTV against any tube tv from 10 years ago... and tell me your going to notice that much to nit pick about.

Dollar for dollar... $450.00 my TC-P42C2 is a better spend than the 12 year ol Sony I got for about the same price.

So you want them to raise their black levels from the start to be fair to the competition? They are being fair by giving you a good deal on black levels from the start and the long period until it rises. Think how much their tv's cost (exception is VT25) compared to LCD and LED's with similar quality.

Listen, you need to go the LCD route man. Put your nose to the screen, and you will always see some level of dithering. If your taking pictures of such, then your an LCD man. Thats how these plasmas smooth and display gradation.

Why not consider a nice LED lit LCD from Samsung, instead of the plasma. The black levels are getting very good on them.

Depends on the person's eyes. Can anyone see a difference between a 58" C8000 and a 58" VT25 (with less than 2000 hours on it)? If the answer is yes, then that same answer will apply to your question.... in a given room light environment.


What do you mean starting level? Samsungs have distinct MLL readings, They don't get higher with age. Same as on the Pioneers. Niether company drives their PDP module cell's like Panasonic.


No. I don't advise/tell anyone how to spend their money. However, in a capitalistic world, the dollar is power. If you want change, dictate and control the revenue.

2500 hours are heavy hours for someone planning on keeping a display for 4-6 years? Are you kidding?



They are good for those who value price over fidelity. As I've said before, your X25 is nothing special. The VT25 is a very nice display, but it is not head and shoulders above the competition.

I am curious about the starting Samsung black level readings. D-Nice says that he has seen them to be comparable to starting Panasonic levels yet CNET and Cleveland Plasma's readings seem to indicate that Panasonic still has the highest starting readings and that even after the rise they are higher than the competition. D-Nice has said that this might be b/c they are measuring them with the Cinema Smooth on but according to CNET the numbers were pretty high even before Cinema Smooth.

I guess I would still think that Panasonic was the best bang for your buck if the black levels were about the same or lower on Panasonics after the rise as they are on other brands.

D-Nice, do you think that Panasonic will still have this problem in 2011?

Yes, because the majority of people don't want a set that only has deep black levels for a few months. If you don't notice rising black levels on your set then you're lucky and it shouldn't affect you anyway. It's unfair to the competition because the competition put out sets with black levels that don't change over the course of their life. Panasonic cheats by misrepresenting the black level to sell at a higher price. This in turn is also unfair to the customer, but most are unknowingly paying for what they think are blacker blacks despite the fact that they could've gotten comparable overall PQ for much cheaper when you figure on the real black level. I'm sorry, but I don't think avs members want "a good deal until it rises". I think they want black levels that remain consistent over the course of the panel's life so they can get a good indication of how it will look several years out.

The notion that black level rental requiring you to buy a new set every couple years just to maintain the PQ you're used to is nonsensical and very irresponsible. There are limited natural resources, both for energy and for manufacturing. If you want to upgrade your set every several years, that's your choice and your money, but for a company to engineer their sets to try and artificially induce that behavior is unacceptable, especially when they have the technical expertise to avoid it. Especially while misrepresenting the black levels to their customers.

You need to understand what black level is and the reason it rises. It rises because the FINAL black level value on the Panasonics are the real value. Normally, a voltage increase is necessary in order to ensure that all pixels are firing properly. The difference is that other manufacturers design their sets so that they maintain a standard image quality over the course of their life. Panasonic decided to play with the voltages at the start of the set's life to artificially make the panels darker during that period. The real difference is that the other manufacturers are choosing to be honest about black levels and, instead of charging you more for temporary black levels, are increasing the voltage in such a way that the black level stays constant.


We'll know the situation with 2011 plasmas when 2011 plasmas come out. People have been speculating since the start of 2009 that 2009, 2010, 2011 etc... panels would finally use kuro tech and fix the nagging problems. That has not been the case. So far 3D seems to be the only major thing they've "improved" in a serious way.

Regarding the measurements, it's been gone over ad nauseum - cnet (and I believe Cleveland Plasma) had Cinema Smooth enabled, which causes the black level to elevate while it's engaged. Disabling that returns it back to normal.

Also, I'm curious if that Norton article stated what light meter was being used to get those measurements on MLL rise.