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"Shh, No Talking" Home Theater... - Page 6

post #151 of 296
9/29/11 at 6:53am
I would use expanding foam in between the studs and wall, then 1-1/2" to 2" of pink insulation inbetween the studs sealing the gaps with expanding foam again.
The pink foam at that thickness gives you the required vapour barrier anything thinner will not work as a vapour barrier.
Do not use fiberglass with the paper backing that will create a double vapour barrier, which you do not want.

Other methods would be to spray foam everything, costly but eliminates your problems of gaps behind the studs, vapour barrier needs, etc.
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post #152 of 296
9/29/11 at 6:56am
Hey Chris- I have to agree with Andreas here on both accounts.

First, you probably want to use Great Stuff expanding foam or equivalent between the rigid insulation and your studs. I think SilenSeal is more suited to drywall gaps, outlets etc. Also, using SilenSeal for all of those gaps would get expensive quick!

Also, the articles Andreas posted above are great for learning about basement water and mold prevention. I think the Building Science link is an updated version of the document I relied on: http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings...s/db/35017.pdf.

You don't want the plastic on top of the rigid insulation - rigid foam is in itself an adequate moisture barrier (at least in a climate like CT or NY). The plastic will act as a second barrier and has the potential to cause mold issues. Same goes for the paper-backed fiberglass. The paper acts as a vapor barrier, so either slice through the paper in lots of places with a utility knife, or (preferably) get the unfaced stuff. I'm not an expert, but here's what I would do:
- Be sure to address any cracks or other issues before you start. Maybe put up some Drylok if you're paranoid like me.
- Glue the rigid foam to the cement - make sure to use the foam glue - other adhesives will eat through the insulation over time.
- Tape the seams with housewrap tape and fill any gaps with Great Stuff.
- Drink a beer or five and admire your work.

Hope this helps. There is excruciating detail in my thread on this if you're interested.
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post #153 of 296
9/29/11 at 11:39pm
Thread Starter 
So you guys recommend rigid foam in between studs and fill gaps with "Great Stuff". Am I going to or should I spray the foam between the studs and concrete (ones that aren't too tight anyway)?

Then just install unfaced R13, then drywall?

Sounds good, but you can tell me straight up, am I screwed regardless because most of the framing is so close to the concrete, some of it probably touching?
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post #154 of 296
9/30/11 at 5:25am
If your studs are touching concrete they are supposed to be pressure treated to be to code. If they are truly touching I would at least slide some of that 6mil plastic sheet between the wall and the studs (not the whole wall).
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post #155 of 296
9/30/11 at 11:36am
Thread Starter 
Ok, I just did the light test. I shined my flashlight at the gaps to see if any light would come through and luckily most of the studs aren't quite touching the wall, a few are super close though. Should I put plastic between all of them just to be safe?

Also, the room unfortunately wasn't in the books so it never got inspected, therefor, the builders didn't care if it was to code I guess
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post #156 of 296
9/30/11 at 2:44pm
I prefer the expanding foam over the plastic sheet. Also, I would highly recommend the window type. The regular type will likely bow your studs out as it expands. You can use the regular type to seal the EPS foam to the studs.
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post #157 of 296
10/1/11 at 11:40pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Andreas, I'll see what I can find at HD tomorrow, I'll report my findings
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post #158 of 296
10/8/11 at 12:45am
Thread Starter 
For the ones that are touching or are super close, should I sawzall a little off to create a gap for the spray foam? I did find the window stuff, should work well

As for an update, not much, but here are a few pictures of my can boxes...



I used only 2 IB3 clips for my boxes, they twist side to side but are held up there good, Once the drywall is up, they won't twist, obviously :P



The 3 up by the front wall were tight, but there's a gap all around, which is what counts



I was also originally going to do the raised Whisper Clip install but decided against it. The amount of time I thought it would take to get them all at the right height seemed very very time consuming but after making a jig to hang the backer boxes, I see how much easier doing the recessed whisper clips would have been, oh well



And just a shot of my projector mount. Should I be worried about bass waves traveling through the ceiling joists and then down my PJ mount to the PJ causing is to vibrate the picture on screen? Or if anything, should I be more worried about the bass vibrating the screen itself? The screen is to the right of the mount in the picture, just noting that so you know which way the joists run in the room. My buddy said not to worry because the joists run side to side and the bass won't travel "down" the joists to the mount. Agreed?

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post #159 of 296
10/11/11 at 1:10am
Thread Starter 
If anyone is out there, please show me some love... I've been down on motivation lately... it sucks when things take so long because you fear you will do it wrong
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post #160 of 296
10/11/11 at 2:21am
Chris,

I know exactly how you feel. I often worry that I am not doing things correctly, so they take much longer because I need some reassurance. The best thing you can do is exactly what you are doing - build it and post it and people will comment. You can post your questions here in your thread, or even ask a specific question in a new thread if it is a big decision.

I apologize because I didn't go back through the entire thread again, so this may have been discussed before and I forgot, but I thought I would ask just in case. This may just be the angle of the picture, but the bottoms of the backer boxes appear to be flush with the bottom of the joist. Because you are using whisper clips and hat channel, there will be a gap between the bottom of the joist and where the drywall mounts to the hat channel. I think your boxes need to be lower so that they will touch the back of the drywall. Otherwise there will be a gap that sound will escape through.

Also, for the projector mount, if you are using clips and channel on the ceiling, you can use a sheet of plywood as the first layer above the projector so that you have a solid mounting surface and then use GG and drywall under that so that it looks the same as the rest of the ceiling. That way, the projector is not mounted directly to the joists. Others may chime in on this with other ideas.

Keep up the good work. As I mentioned, it can be hard to stay motivated at times. My project stalled for several months over the summer and I had a hard time getting back in the groove as I tried to make decisions, but sometimes you just have to read through the other threads and make a decision. Also, I found that many people are following the threads, but may not comment as much until it gets into the more exciting stuff that they can visualize like screen walls and risers.

Nick
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post #161 of 296
10/11/11 at 2:38am
If you can get a sawsall to trim a very small amount from the studs and it doesn't take too long, I say go for it.

I also did the same as you for the clips in the ceiling. You don't really lose much height at all (~1") and the install is much easier. I think I had some stuff in the joist area that would have prevented the recessed type of install anyway.

I also would consider putting some ply in for the first layer on the ceiling for PJ mounting....although I didn't. I am using a shelf that is attached to the ceiling and wall that is attached with drywall anchors. I use these: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053 I think they hold 40 lbs each! I've been using them for years on all kinds of stuff including large shelving units attached to just drywall. You have 1.25" thickness of drywall so you have a lot to bite into.

As far as stuff vibrating...my THT vibrates the PJ itself with HIGH levels of bass, but that is because the PJ is not bolted down. I don't ever run a movie that hot as it is just too damn loud. If you did some vibration in the pic it kind of adds to the bass effect, no?
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post #162 of 296
10/11/11 at 2:23pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks a lot Nick and Andreas for taking the time to write

Nick, it is a bad angle for the pictures, the boxes do sit lower than the joist to accommodate for the gap, thanks for asking though

As for the plywood, technically, the pj mount is attached to plywood which is screwed to the 2x4's against the joists, but, I do have a few things I might try to isolate it a bit.

I will do the cutting Andreas, it's only half a dozen or so, it might not be too bad

Stay tuned!!
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post #163 of 296
10/11/11 at 2:43pm
Keep on truckin friend, it's coming together nicely, I just read the whole thread.

Gotta take a break here there to avoid burnout but man, after the first fireup of the projector you will move at breakneck speed!! (or stop all together lol)

Good luck, keep it going, I have no good advice for where you are currently other than if you're worried about the projector having vibration issues, there are solutions for that, place a 1/2 inch thick piece of neoprene between the bottom of the box and a board that the projector sits on.
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post #164 of 296
10/11/11 at 7:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iced98lx View Post

Keep on truckin friend, it's coming together nicely, I just read the whole thread.

Gotta take a break here there to avoid burnout but man, after the first fireup of the projector you will move at breakneck speed!! (or stop all together lol)

Good luck, keep it going, I have no good advice for where you are currently other than if you're worried about the projector having vibration issues, there are solutions for that, place a 1/2 inch thick piece of neoprene between the bottom of the box and a board that the projector sits on.

Thanks for ch3cking it out ice! I know, breaks are a good thing, it's just that I've had roughly 3 deadlines so far, haha, oh well. Only the last one really counted, the first two were set before I changed the room size and so on

Yeah, I think I will try some isolation just to be sure. I do have two IB3 clips left over, maybe I can order 2 more and completely isolate it but then I worry about the actual bass waves flying through the air shaking the PJ? Possibility or not even?
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post #165 of 296
10/11/11 at 8:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Yeah, I think I will try some isolation just to be sure. I do have two IB3 clips left over, maybe I can order 2 more and completely isolate it but then I worry about the actual bass waves flying through the air shaking the PJ? Possibility or not even?

I wouldn't fret and even if it did happen, eventually, I would look at that when it comes.
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post #166 of 296
10/12/11 at 3:53am
Chris, why wouldn't you just put some ply in the first layer of your drywall and mount the PJ to that? The whole ceiling is isolated!
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post #167 of 296
10/12/11 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
I'm still a confused about the ply idea, can you explain? If I attach ply to the ceiling joists and then my pj mount to the ply, it's the same as I have now, pretty much, right?
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post #168 of 296
10/12/11 at 3:43pm
Instead of attaching a layer of drywall to your channels, attach a piece of 5/8" ply. The second layer will still be drywall with the GG between the ply and the drywall. You only need to put ply where you are going to mount your PJ of course.
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post #169 of 296
10/12/11 at 11:13pm
Thread Starter 
Oh I see, I actually thought that's what you might have meant but didn't think so at the same time because I didn't think it would be a good idea to put all the weight (PJ and mount, plus dw and ply)) on a couple of channels and clips
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post #170 of 296
10/13/11 at 6:00am
Been reading this thread for a while but this is my first post.

Ply is lighter than Sheetrock I think. So you shouldn't have a problem.

Keep up the great work. I've learned allot from this thread
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post #171 of 296
10/14/11 at 10:44pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks ADAIR.

To Andreas, the window foam sealer, it says water resistant so I'm guessing that the foam won't soak up water like a sponge, correct? My buddy came over and he mentioned that he did a job once where he found someone who used some type of spray foam behind his wall and it ended up soaking water up like crazy and kept molding the drywall in front

EDIT: I've been doing research on this stuff (GReat Stuff) for the past half hour and no one seems to like if for use near water, maybe it wasn't the best choice? Yet another thing I'm going to worry myself sick about...
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post #172 of 296
10/15/11 at 1:19pm
Check this thread out for mounting the PJ.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1360906
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post #173 of 296
10/15/11 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Thanks ADAIR.

To Andreas, the window foam sealer, it says water resistant so I'm guessing that the foam won't soak up water like a sponge, correct? My buddy came over and he mentioned that he did a job once where he found someone who used some type of spray foam behind his wall and it ended up soaking water up like crazy and kept molding the drywall in front

EDIT: I've been doing research on this stuff (GReat Stuff) for the past half hour and no one seems to like if for use near water, maybe it wasn't the best choice? Yet another thing I'm going to worry myself sick about...

Damn, I didn't think it would do that. It forms a skin on the outside that seals up pretty well. Inside is full of holes and is a bit spongy though. I'm sorry if I lead you astray. I have one more FREE (and possibly stupid and wrong) suggestion. You can retroactively put in some 6 mil plastic by using your sawsall against the wall. It should give you just enough room for the plastic to slide through.....even though I said you should skip the 6 mil plastic in the first place. You would then prevent wicking from the concrete to the foam and insulate the cold concrete from the air between the wood and the concrete which would lead to condensation. The only reason I suggest this is so you don't worry yourself sick and lose sleep over what I suggested you do. FEEL FREE TO IGNORE MY ADVICE! (Please don't hate me!)
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post #174 of 296
10/15/11 at 5:01pm
Pond foam will not absorb water.



Be aware of what foam board you are using.. There are many different types.

For instance, pink Foamular 150 board has a vapor permeance of 1.1, which is more than plywood.

That may be what you want, depending on how you plan on handling moisture.

Tim
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post #175 of 296
10/16/11 at 11:46pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys... The other day I went downstairs and scraped away the whole can of foam I sprayed behind 4-5 joists so I can put plastic there instead (what a BIATCH!!), no worries Andreas, I forgive you :P

Next step is to put 3/4 pink rigid foam inbetween all joists, then R13 fiberglass, then drywall. If all goes well, every one of those could be done by mid next week. Thanks for the info Tim

WISH ME LUCK!!

In the mean time, any thoughts you guys have are more than welcome, I would be soooo pissed off if I did some of this wrong
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post #176 of 296
10/19/11 at 10:38pm
Thread Starter 
Just a quick update for my fellow followers...

No pictures for this but some words will do. I got all of my hat channel up and my electrician came today to wire in all the can lights for me. Tomorrow morning I will have the inspector here to do his part, after that, hopefully I'll have the insulation in friday and possibly some drywall over the weekend/into next week!

It will start to look like a room very soon... yippeee!
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post #177 of 296
10/27/11 at 1:32am
Thread Starter 
Well, nothing exciting yet. I just started cutting all of my pieces of pink foam to go in between the joists and as usual, making myself sick by worrying about doing it wrong. If I could only go back and remove all old joists and put up new ones, even half inch from the concrete would make me happy... Oh well, let's pray for the best.

Tomorrow, I will finish the rigid foam, but before I glue them to the wall (wish I didn't have to) I will try to squeeze some plastic between the joists and concrete, I REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO THIS!!! but it looks like it's my only choice...

(sigh) Stay tuned...
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post #178 of 296
11/11/11 at 6:18am
So how's your project going? I hope you haven't become too discouraged
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post #179 of 296
11/24/11 at 11:13pm
Thread Starter 
Ok guys, here is my update along with a few worries (what's new? (rolls eyes) )..

Since my last update, I installed 2 layers of DW on the ceiling followed by a layer on the walls. Of course, now I know 2 things I should have done differently... One, install one layer on ALL surfaces followed by the 2nd. I was too busy trying to get the hard part done (the ceiling) first that I forgot about doing it the proper way.

2nd, after the ceiling was up I realized that my hat channels squeaked in the end clips, front and back of the room, when I pushed on the ceiling. Of course this got me worried that they will squeak and rattle with bass. I also went around and did a light pound test near the nights, the lights in the front seemed to rattle a bit, worried about bass again...

Now, before I go and do a 2nd layer on the wall, I decided to temporarily install all speakers including subs to, for one, make sure they all work and 2nd, to listen for unwanted noises. What I found isn't pleasant...

On the good side, all speakers work! :P

On the flip side, my hat channels vibrate at certain freq (found out while playing test tones) as well as my lights and projector...

Now I know that this isn't very conclusive because I'm using 30+ second test tones which will not be in the movies so I will not hear the rattles like I am now but of course I'm still worried.

Onto the subwoofers. I am impressed so far because with very little cone movement, I get some good spl (90-100db) in certain areas of the room with 25-80hz test tones. 3 or 4 of those tones (played in 5hz increments) rattled the lights and hat channels. Will this be a problem during movies? I have no idea.

Also, the wall I built for the line array (you will see in the photos below) is pretty darn solid, but, I still get some good wall vibration/movement from the woofers. Is this because of the spl or the woofer actaully counter moving the studs? Idk. Again, very inconclusive testing but I decided it was an "ok" basepoint to see where I stood. Maybe I'm wrong

Last thing, vibration at the projector. As is, I cut a massive hole in the ceiling for the projector, I will be installing a "removable" panel for the PJ area, not the ideal way I'm sure but it's what we thought of. Anyway, the PJ vibrates at a few test tones, visible vibration and I can feel it in the pole and joists above. Again, I don't know if this is from the SPL produced by the subs going up into the joists from the massive hole or the counter movement from the speaker cones moving the wall.

Sorry for the lont post, but I tend to go on and on with my questions and theory's, hope you're not overwhelmed. Below are shots of everything so far. Let me know what you think











Here is a shot of my "monkeyman" style PJ mount, not done to a T compared to his design but works well, although I'm kind of leaning toward a commercial mount for ease of install and use :/















Here are a few shots of my now insulated Econwaves...





In the end, I don't know if any of my testing is worth making any decisions on or worth making myself sick over thinking my build is going to suck... Because right now I almost wish I never went with clips and channels or even DD/GG because of the time it has taken along with the possible headaches that might come from it..

Your thoughts and encouragement are very much needed.
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post #180 of 296
11/25/11 at 7:12am
WOW Digital_Chris, those econowaves and IB's are beautiful!!

As for the squeaking hat channel, is it that noticeable during a loud scene in a movie?

I'm not sure if I understand what is rattling in your lights. Could you post a close picture?

I was thinking that you can mount the projector to the floor joists for the room above and then looked back through the thread and remembered that you didn't put up separate joists for the ceiling for isolation. I don't know of any other ways to do it, but I'm sure you can find something on these forums.

Keep up the good work and happy late thanksgiving
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