Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 10

not a dumb idea at all but it requires more XOs which is just more measurement/simulation hassles. On the active side more amps, more XO channels.

There is something too keeping the 400Hz to 2KHz (or 3KHz) on one driver. Many designers talk about XOs within that region causing SQ issues.

Just another one of those compromising choices in audio.

The potential problem with a three way is the C2C spacing (lobbing issues), between the mid and HF waveguides/horns.

The speakers I'm building now have the XD120 waveguide crossed to a 10" Eminence, and that's sitting on a 15" sub driver that only gets the LFE up to about 120hz. I'll be starting a build thread shrortly.

If most people will be running some type of subwoofer with these (I'm sure they will), then I'm fine using 10", or 12" drivers for the woofers instead of going up to a 15".

My guess is that there are plenty setups using 10's or 12's that can easily do reference levels and handle the higher crossovers, but no 15's are going to dig deep enough to satisfy the bass hungry folks here.

So why use 15's at all if they can't be crossed up high enough and still have a need for a subwoofer? Just curious.

That's what I'm doing. Never been a 2 way fan in general. Active via DCX is more than most want to spend though or it's too hard for most to do passive.

If used with a subwoofer then there isnt a lot of reasons to go with a 15" woofer unless its a superior choice over the 12" or 10" for the same frequency range. Example, the TD15M is a better driver then the TD12M played from 80Hz to 1KHz based on the specs and measurements.

Really there isnt a blanket statement for using one size over another. It depends on the drivers you have available in a certain budget range.

Knowing specs and measurements about a lot of drivers helps with these decisions. Zilch, Brandon and a few others have done amazing work in measuring many choices.

Is this a new project or you did it already?

I built a slap together proto with the 2225, 2123 and Ewave/DE250 ages ago and am slowly assembling 4 units of the same now with the TD10M in the middle instead.

Thanks, Im adding AV15X bass bins to my mains, using the TD12M as a mid range driver (300Hz to 1200Hz).

Mine are for my surrounds, with 300hz and 1k7 xovers, that's what they were in the protos so the small Ewave lines up well.

Another option

http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...HR90%20EDS.pdf

btw, I got this from this current thread on DIYaudio.com
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post2384732

Great thread for showing waveguide options.

Building a full-spectrum 2-way is tough duty, especially if one expects reference-level SPL, though it can be done with modern technology for the price of leading-edge components. The better answer is to assume subs(s) and design killer mid/high boxes to mate with them, as Erich H suggests, above.

There's nothing available "Big Box" that can approach this level of performance, as Geddes et al. have demonstrated....

Look at the prices, though. I suspect they're using a really cheap element inside the WG. Maybe even a piezo. Not exactly the B&C/BMS/Beyma compression drivers that most of us want to use.


Complexity for one thing. Getting one driver handoff seamless is hard enough! Also, with modern stuff there's just no need. Plenty of 10-15" woofers that can go up to 1kHz or a bit higher cleanly, and plenty of compression drivers that, properly loaded, can take over from there and go high enough for human ears.


I think that's a better answer regardless of component cost, though. Unless the room is auditorium-sized, smooth upper bass just ain't gonna happen from three speakers placed appropriately for LCR use.

I'm surprised that the prefab speaker industry hasn't begun to catch up yet. Even assuming that nasty compromise that is the 7" 2-way remains the de facto standard for prefab speakers, I don't get why they're not shooting for medium efficiency and 80-100Hz lower cutoffs, rather than abysmal efficiency and high-distortion ~40Hz low end.

Because they are somehow still stuck with the old mindset that they need to build speakers that can run on their own without subs.

Of course a main speaker still needs an F3 below 60Hz to get a smooth transition with a sub @ 80Hz.

Penn,

Still thinking of buying those local Wharfedales to test??.

How bout these EV HP9040's, do these old designs with long narrow throats "honk" like crazy?

lol, too funny, have you been reading DIYaudio.com today?

Im not considering that one but Im considering some other EV horns on ebay.

As for the Wharfedales, Im going to that pawn shop to look at them tomorrow. from the pics, I believe the waveguide is only about 12" wide, its definitely smaller then the 15" woofer. Im not interested in smaller waveguides any more. 14" is the min I want these days.

Sure have.

Another guy has a pair of the smaller EV HP940 horns w/ the DH1A 2" CD's on eBay, he just sold 2 pairs of the horns alone and one set went for only $20, a week too late.

So you've decided to set a minimum size, uh oh. What pattern control frequency are you shooting for? Are we gonna see an updated avatar in a few months with some huge white acrylic tractrix horns dominating the room.

They're in business to make money, and that's the dominant paradigm.

Wherever I go with DIY EconoWave, it's generally unfamiliar territory, a challenge to conventional wisdom, change perceived as a loss, and unless/until there are adopters among core membership willing to take the risk of building them, I am viewed as an interloping heretic and even pariah; there's plenty of haters out there.

HT was quick to accept E-Wave, though, largely because it meets spec like few alternative design approaches ever could, with minimal investment....

Definitely some interesting choices on Ebay for older horns, I should start searching daily.


I would love to get down to 600-700Hz but that has its own compromises so many pushing down to 900Hz would be okay. The 15" EOS I posted early might do 900Hz with the DE250. Geddes XOs around there with his Summas and Abbeys so there is potential.

Zilch, I have always thought of you as a pioneer in the DIY horn world. Your ability to focus on core design without all the subjectivity of other factors is amazing.

That is how you know you are doing something right. That is how my wife introduces me.

Well, if we are going to keep this discussion going further I think there are a few things that need to be defined in the idea of this design research.

Most of us have settled on a 2 Way design WG/CD up top and a 15 (Or 12) on the bottom.

The next step is to agree what we want down low, lock that in place so we can start to get to work on this WG design.

Yes Penn wants a larger WG than some of the others out there, I say why not. That though, is because I have the space and now WAF to worry about.

So, Let's discuss what we want the LF driver to be. Most of us who are reading this have built some sort of sub (pure assumption) and are pretty much happy with it. So let's assume for a minute that we don't need to get super low with these things, (I know, you can burn me at the stake later). Can we still get a 15 to play nice like a 12 would? As was pointed out, it really depends on the driver and the specs as well as a whole manner of other things that we can deal with in the future like exact enclosure size sealed/ported etc.

It also seems that we should pick and stick to a CD (though the 250 seems popular) I cannot help at all on this matter as I have not heard any of them yet.

I should also add that what truly got me interested in the entire WG EWave build idea was this simple statement:

augerpro / Branon
In his thread about his Wave variant.

Obviously We are not trying to mimic this design, I just wanted to point out the reason I am so interested in it is 2ch Audio. If I am going to spend the time and effort on designing/building something, I want it to be as awesome as I can possibly build.

So, lets start to iron out what we want out of this design. If that means we have to compromise something, then lets discuss it and see if we are ok with making that compromise, and then settle on a design.

/rantoff

Max

Why even try?

If XO'd to a sub at 80 Hz, a 12" (or a 10" for that matter) has ample output, behaves better at the upper end, allows a smaller box, and is cheaper.

LTD02, Im all for a 15" woofer if we can get a waveguide that has controlled directivity under 1KHz since I will never run a 15" driver above 1KHz.

12" just works easier with XOs, IMO.

3AMRecords, I have always consider all WG design big or small to be kind of anti-WAF but I just know the problems that exist with small waveguides. Look at Zilch's measurements of a similar waveguide to the one used in the Pro-10s being rant and raved about on the speaker forum. You should not use a larger driver with them if you care about measurements/accuracy and directivity and if you want sensitivity then you have a smaller driver that does not go to low and it becomes a 3-way.

Remember high sensitivity drivers have limited Xmax so you need surface area to produce lower frequencies. 6.5" and 8" high sensitivity drivers really do not go low enough to be used as the bass section.

Its just another one of those compromises to a speaker design, a person needs a high level flow chart to figure this stuff out

btw, this discussion reminds me of the initial thread I started about waveguides. One that kicked off what Brandon and I built and brought Zilch to AVS. There are lots of discussion threads on what is an optimal design but there are several camps on the topic.

To me its simple. There are enough builds to emulate from what Paul W. has done to what Augerpro has built, then there are the many, many choices Zilch offers.

No one is going to agree on the exact one build that is the best so we just have to pick the build that suits our needs the best. I only push the 15" EOS because its not offered but talked about so much as a "Man, I wish I had that" type of design. Im really not looking for a majority effort neither because I have posted already that it never happens so essentially I will try really hard to push the 15" EOS myself as much as I can. The files have been created and sent. I will continue to search for resources to get one built. Obviously the more people on board and helping the better chance we have of success but after 10 pages, there is not even a consensus of anyone else wanting the 15" EOS.

So its really the breakdown looks like this

What waveguide do you want?
1. Penngray - 15" EOS
2. unknown
3. unknown
4. unknown
5.
6.
7.

I will agree here, If we can get a 15 to play nice why not?
I know the 3015/HO/LF have been preferred lately.
I have not had a chance to compare this and the aforementioned bms 15s320 though.
So what would we gain/lose by using each?

15" eos

Yes, and he also says the Abbey gives nearly all the performance at way less cost and box size

What waveguide do you want?
1. Penngray - 15" EOS
2. LTD02 - 15" EOS
3. 3AMRecords - 15" EOS
4. Noah - 12" EOS (assuming it holds pattern control down to ~1.2 kHz or less)