Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 104

Absolutely. First a 'blank' will have to be made, and finished to the desired lustre. Then the 'blank' will be placed in a boxed frame, and silicone will be poured over it. If poured correctly, the silicone can give out a highly polished surface.

The resin could easily be polyester, but without the fiberglass layered in. Or it could be added, it doesn't really matter. Only trouble is that polyester is highly toxic and must be worked in an environment where the fumes are sucked out quickly.

Polyurethane is just a tad more expensive, is easily poured, and forms a hard bond when it cures. Once the resin is set the silicone mold can be peeled back and the casting removed.

Here is the process using a metallic finish that is rubbed out when the molding is complete. You can do some wonderful things with urethane molds, and make them practically any colour or metallic finish.

Cold Casting Real Bronze Powder & Resin Video

It will be interesting to see if you do try it higher. I found that 17-1800Hz worked well (listening with sweeps, noise and some rough measurement) with the JBL2123 and AETD10M.

I didn't really expect jzagaja to post the photo so soon. Other than the poured cement/resin models in the standard sizes, this is pretty much all that's coming for quite some time. This 10" one piece baffle was discussed many months ago, but briefly.

So don't worry, no revisions here, it's the same one you can get by itself in fiberglass or poured resin.

And they'll work with most crossover designs coming for the SEOS-10. Look at it as just another option for how you want the speaker to look.......and what your budget is. I've got estimates, and it won't be for everyone.

And since we're waiting on the plastic version and the other poured versions....why sit around twiddling thumbs when there's more to design!

Those integrated baffles look excellent, and I'm sure will end up being in some fine looking speakers. They'll definitely make it easier for some people to make a really pro looking finished speaker.

I did another SEOS12/Designer10 crossover design with the corner frequency moved a little higher, to see if I could improve the off-axis pattern. Not that it was bad (still better than 99% of speakers!), but there was some unexpected broadening around 1500Hz.

I tried moving the crossover from about 1100Hz to 1500Hz, This (letting the narrowing pattern of the woofer at HF work up there rather than the waveguide) did help the pattern some, but unfortunately the woofer's response flatness isn't so good above 1000Hz causing worse response ripple. I think I like the 1100Hz crossover better, anyone else have an opinion?
1500Hz:

1100Hz:


What I think is happening is this: this speaker cabinet has a "lip" about 5 inches above the waveguide, sticking out about an inch from the baffle. Down around 1500Hz, the waveguide doesn't have much vertical directivity, so the wave reflects off that lip, affecting the pattern. I don't think it is a deal breaker, so I'm not going to sacrifice the cabinet's cosmetics by sawing the lip off.

Anyway, what do you think? I'll draw up the schematic for the most favored version. Then, on to a version using the Advent's usual woofer (which is said to be interchangeable with the 10" woofers on any of the larger Advents).

So it looks like Erich updated sometime today to indicate another AVS'er ordered 7 more waveguides. That brings us to 123 in the first week of the pre-order being live on his site. Not too shabby for one week and only posting about it a few days ago on other sites besides AVS...

Has the first week pre-orders caused any change in your plans, Erich? Are you firm on 150? or 200? or waiting it out longer? Or just want folks to calm down for a few days, wait more than a week to see how things go, and then decide? I'll order a few more to put us over the top if we get to a hard target for you. Again, don't need them, but will help us along if I can...


Edited to remove questions for Bill... it seems he was posting while I was typing

bwaslo, what is the sensitivity going to be like for the SEOS12/Designer10?

I think the woofer is rated at 91 dbspl

Doesnt AE have TD10/12s in stock? Why arent they a preferred option?

I've got nothing against AE drivers. But I'm working with drivers I have or that Parts Express carries (they are being kind enough to lend woofers to work with).

Bill,

these designs you're working on, can we drop in the AE drivers without needing to change crossovers?

I doubt it. Driver depth and response will be different.

When TD15M are close to shipping, I can put together a crossover for it matched to a SEOS15 (fiberglas). I'm using that currently, but with MiniDSP active crossover.

thanks. i got 2 TD12M from the group by, hoping it would be a drop in.

If you wanted to ship one to me, I can do up an xover for it (after Erich gets off his butt and makes me a box for 12" woofers, that is!)

no problem. when i get them from John, i will ship it to you, that is if you haven't already got one in your hands by then.

I was under the impression that he was still WAY behind. You question makes it seem that this is not the case. Does he have 12's available?

I would prefer AE. Great SQ, of course, but I really like the look as well.

Is there another high quality 12" driver with a phase plug?


Steve

Have John ever had any drivers in stock? I think not...

Bill/bwaslo, if it would be helpful for the community at large and, more importantly, you really want to do it, I could have a few different drivers sent to you to work on crossovers? I'm in no way wanting to pressure or volunteer you for anything so no worries either way...

I just bought 3 AE TD12X new drivers that are boxed and ready to ship from John. I could route one of them to you.

I'm happy to help supply others like a JBL 2206H or something if you wish? Designs with these drivers, while pricier than the more budget choices, might interest others looking for higher end options? I can get them for a reasonable price new and would be willing to assist others if they want a pair or coordinate a group buy or something... Parts Express also sells the JBLs direct to consumers... folks can also find used JBLs in pro boxes as well depending on where you live and if you scour Craigslist. There's a bunch of 2226H woofers out there right now in my local area for decent prices, for example... not $20 or anything awesome like that, but quite a bit below new retail... I'm tempted to grab a few of those 2226s that are priced well......

My problem is that although I can do crossover work, it's finding the time and getting ramped up back into it after all these years... so I applaud the others that can turn stuff out quicker than me and I'm willing to help if I can....

It'll take me a few months to do each design I want to try once I get rolling again on it....... and with baby arriving very soon, I just know I'm going to be MIA for a few months getting settled into first time parenthood.... I'm planning for the worst case scenario and hoping to be pleasantly surprised with time to still do renew the DIY hobby it's unlikely to happen... but I can dream about that I suppose

any idea when they plan to put the new Dayton drivers up on the PE website so we can have a look? Are these pro style woofers?

Ok, here is the final on the SEOS12/Designer10 crossover design. This worked out pretty sweet. I ended up dropping the crossover point down to about 1kHz, using roughly 6th order acoustic on the tweeter and 3rd order on the woofer. This smoothed out the response in general and still gave excellent polars.

First, here are some curves. Horizontal:

Horizontal "map" format:


Vertical (I only did +/-15 and +/-10 degrees for this, which shows it is doing as intended):


The woofer and tweeter responses separate and combined:


This is the measured impedance of the system:

It gets a little low around 1800Hz, but shouldn't make any amp that could handle 4 ohm speakers uncomfortable.

And here is the crossover schematic. This is a pretty sophisticated crossover, with some tricks I'll explain in a minute.

First thing you'll probably notice is that there are a lot more parts across the tweeter. I got spoiled using the PEQs that Mini-DSP provides for smoothing response peak bumps, so I used the 'shallow notch' sections shown (circled in green below). A design could be done without these, but it wouldn't be as smooth.
The part outlined in red is essentially the Parham/Zilch configuration.


Circled in blue (around L2) is a trick that does a couple of good things. The capacitor C4 resonates with L2, putting a notch where the woofer's breakup resonance might otherwise interfere. It also makes L2 act like a larger inductor near the crossover frequency, which lets us use a smaller valued part (less expensive, lower series resistance). The downside is that at still higher frequencies signal can sneak around L2, limiting the ultimate rolloff to the woofer. Resistor R5 keeps the tradeoff reasonable (and the woofer's greatly reduced response so high in frequency also helps). Unfortunately, PCD is unable to exactly model this arrangement, so I modelled it as a parallel RLC network instead and checked it out with real hardware.

The schematic, by the way, was drawn using the tool at the free website www.circuitlab.com. You can go look at my schematic there by using this link - https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/q...igner10-xover/. CircuitLab is a pretty nice circuit modeler (not just a schematic drawing tool), but it can't be used to simulate the crossover since it doesn't allow for driver FRD or ZMA type files in the simulation....too bad.

Here is a Parts List and some notes on the design:
__________________________________
SEOS12/Designer10 Notes and Parts List

Woofer = Dayton DS270-8 (cabinet alignment will not affect crossover)
Tweeter = any of: B&C DE250; Denovo (Erich's) "better" driver or his"lower cost" driver
Waveguide = SEOS12 (plastic, fiberglas, or 'solid surface')

For tests, woofer was centered 9.75" below waveguide center, woofer and waveguide both front-mounted on same baffle plane. Baffle is 16" wide. Measurements made at distance of 30inches, 9 degrees above tweeter's baffle position.

Crossover Parts: using reference designations from the circuitlab schematic at
https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/q...igner10-xover/

C1: 20uF Film capacitor (Parts Express# 027-436)
C2: 1.5uF Film capacitor (PE# 027-412)
C3: 40uF capacitor (PE# 027-442....or: 027-350 in parallel with a 027-336 will also work here)
C4: 2.2uF Film capacitor (PE# 027-415)
C5: 10uF Film capacitor (PE# 027-428)
C6: 3uF Film capacitor (PE# 027-418)
L1, L3, L4: 0.56mH inductor, series resistance = 0.5 ohm (PE# 255-232)
L2: 1.5mH inductor, series resistance <0.35 ohms (PE# 266-552)
R1,R6: 2ohm 5W resistor (PE# 015-2)
R3: 8 ohm L-Pad (PE# 260-248 or 260-250)
R2: 15 ohm 5W resistor (PE# 015-15)
R5: 5 ohms 5W resistor (PE# 015-5)
R7: 3.3 ohms 5W resistor (PE# 015-3.3)

Nominal setting for the L-Pad: set for 4.7 ohms between the tweeter [+] lead and the top of the L-Pad (where it connects to C2), tweeter connected in the circuit.
___________________________________________

A zip with of all the design files is at
http://libinst.com/SEOS/SEOS12+Designer10/Xover%208.zip

I don't know when the Designer's Series (DS) drivers will appear on the web site. I'm guessing tomorrow or Tuesday, but don't know for sure.

Bon Appetit!

And this is how 1st/3rd order topology crossed at 1kHz works with Flatpack SEOS 10".

Response and design looks great, bwaslo! I couldn't find the Dayton DS270-8 on the parts express website. Do you have a part number and price on it?

Cheers!
Joel

Bwaslo, Is there going to be a 12" version of the new driver?

I think he meant the RS270-8.

They look cool, but I don't see any functional advantage when crossed as low as they are to a WG.

I could acutally be DS beuase this is an all new "Designer Series" woofer

This. And they aren't on the web site yet, hopefully early next week.

True, but the paper cone/dustcap thing, while being the best for SQ, just looks very plain to me.

I realize that I will just have to let the speaker speak for itself, so to speak LOL

They are "DS" and there is a 12" version and also some smaller ones. I have one of the 12's here but don't have a box to use it in (hint, hint. Erich).

HometheaterDoc, sure, I'd work with a SEOS12 and a TD12 if I had one (and a box, see hint above).

Sorry, I asked about the price on the DS drivers months ago but don't remember what the answer was. I think they weren't too expensive. Also don't have the model numbers other than "DS...". We should know next week sometime. If not, I'll bug Brian about it.

I'm very excited for these DS drivers. They sound like a cross between hifi and pro. Am I right?