Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 127

I'm working on mine for a while now but spring has sprung and the motorcycling world keeps me working long hours so progress has been slow. I'm building mine with a modular approach in the vein of Wilson Audio with a separate bass module, mid enclosure and enclosure for the horn......a mini PA stack if you will. I'll not be asking the 12" mid (Deltalight) to play much below 80 hz as I want to keep the mids as clean as possible. The mid enclosure I'll be using will be 2cuft sealed. And will sit on top,of the bass bins. I built a test box and tried sealed and ported and found I preferred the sealed. The waveguide will have its own enclosure and will also contain the passive network. The way I've worked it out it will allow for easier alignment of the drivers acoustic centers without the need for rear mounting the mid. It's also going to be quite tall overall at 5 ft so i've planned for a tiltable horn enclosure. It's going to be interesting to measure the resonate of the mid and horn intersecting and what that does to the forward lobe and null(s). Revamped bass bins are in process from the originals which have been reduced to 4.3cuft net and the tune raised to 20hz. Front slot port is being replace with a downfiring port using Polk's power port spreadsheets. This part of the system is all active with a 25hz high pass and 140hz cutoff up top. I've found running the sealed mids full range and overlapping the bass ins integrates extremely well with each other. I won't have any pics to show until after the july4th holidays as that's when I can go back to a 50hr work week as the cycling season begins to slow.

While I know there's a lot of push towards sealed (and no doubt I've been a part of it) I'm thinking an ML-TL that follows the basic concept of the Audio Kinesis Rythim Prism:



My reasoning for an ML-TL is simple:

It's easy for anyone to design a good sealed box.

But when it comes to vented boxes, most people flat out get it wrong. Poor vent placement, undersized vents, poor driver placement, poor tuning, and incorrect box volume are actually big culprits. The biggest mistake made is the assumption that winISD for example can give you a great vented box for a main speaker. Further, some people flat out want tower speakers, and it's slim pickings out there.

I know I'd be able to sell my cousin, for example, on a SEOS-12 tower, no subs, but not a stand-mount SEOS-12 + 3 subs. Of course, selling those 3 subs after,

The drawback of the ML-TL of course is that you have to pick a driver and go with it. Sealed is more open to different drivers.

I like those mains better than a short bookshelf one(and would buy some). Is the Deltalite II 2512 a good choice? If not ML-TL at least a proted box in that style for the 2512.

Any decently tall (non cubic) ported box will already be an ML-TL. If you don't model it as an ML-TL, you will not get good results, and end up with the classic "ported loudspeaker" midrange/midbass sound because of response ripple.

Okay, thanks for the info

The Deltalight 12 is a great option for Fullranger as it digs deeper than most pro 12's and it's efficient to boot.

But don't expect thunderous bass output.....they won't take the place of subwoofers. That corner loaded design is pretty well thought out but might not meet the needs of every setup as the preset toe in is going to dictate the listening distance. It could be adjusted to suit during the build.

I'm seeing flawed reasoning, strawmen and rationalisations.
The AKRP is quite a good design for what Duke intended it for.


Generally. And much less easy to do an MLTL.


Rubbish. Evidence please.
I've never seen someone post a detailed design here where these are not relatively quickly seen, discussed and alternatives provided. If someone then chooses to build a poor design in the light of such advice, then that is their choice.
What? WinISD is basically useful for working out tuning, nothing else. It shows two standard models as options (QB3 and SBB4 IIRC) but you can still choose everything else yourself and make non standard alignments such as LLT easily.
The slim picking are ONLY if you choose to use someone else's existing design exactly. there is nothing stopping you taking say a Zilch ported Ewave and resigning the enclosure to a slim tower, whether shaped like the AKRP or rectangular X section. It's just some simple geometry.


Why not a stand mount SEOS12 for not and subs which are stand replacements later. We should all know the response issues with those placement choices, but in that regard you can only work with what your cousin can do in his room. This suggestion will have no more/less response issues than an MLTL in the same position.


Only if you use a pre selected box. Starting from scratch should not be an issue for either, if your design is good.


Bollocks. You'll need to prove this.

No, that's just poor design.

MLTL are much more difficult to design and get right than ported or sealed. To make an MLTL you need Martin's software too, though I believe Hornresp can come pretty close. As the Deltalite 12 was mentioned, you are going to have difficulty getting an MLTL for that (or similar 12") into a box of similar size/shape the the AKRP, especially if you want a tuning that could reasonably replace a system that had some sub capability, not just F3 at 40Hz. On this last point, an MLTL is not a magic alignment: you will still have the volume displacement limitation of most HE 12" - the DL12 has an Xmax of <3mm.

Go ahead and build whatever you want, but an MLTL is really only best for those who can generally have a much larger enclosure than for a sealed or 4th/6th order ported and are scared of EQ and/or subs.

Sorry for the late reply. Absolutely, "regularities" would be a much more accurate description. Didn't mean to imply that your reference to the impedance measurement was abnormal, it was just my wording (and lack of general understanding of those sweeps - I'm learning though). Those measured rises in impedance across the stretch of frequencies you pointed out are indeed quite normal, but ultimately it was the comparison of data (impedance/phase, Fs, Qts, sensitivity, off-axis response, copper Faraday, etc.) that compelled me to side with AE's design. I agree that in comparison to the AE, the afore mentioned measurements certainly appear "irregular" to those drivers that share similar parameters. There appears to be a more gradual rise in impedance at certain frequencies between the 12" AE and Faital, yes? All-in-all, I've really tried to understand and adhere to the adage that inspires one to explore audio in a more applied way, "More Data, Less Wank." Words to live by and learn from.

Speaking of "wank"... have you seen the Faital Pro pr vid on YouTube?
Pretty cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2etqOVpLtT8


Thanks for the Graveson info btw. Checked out some of the Excel drivers, noticed most of them were in the 80-90-ish sensitivity range and I didn't see any impedance/phase measurements in the data sheets to compare. Were the sweeps of the driver he was working on ever published?


So yeah, you've caused no apprehension at all. Instead, I feel much more informed as it allowed a bit more research...which to me is half the fun!

-Nate

Why are you arguing with me then for suggesting it?


And it won't be an accurate sim for anything but a subwoofer.


Erich is asking for advice on what to do as far as FLAT PACK kits are concerned. That sort of, kind of IMPLIES "choosing to use someone else's existing design exactly"


..what? What part of "He doesn't want a stand mount" did you miss? Are you just trying to argue with my every statement to boost your ego or something? Not everyone WANTS a stand mount. Get over your high horse with being offended by my suggestion of a tower.


We`re... TALKING about "pre selected boxes". You know... FLAT PACKs.


No, you'll need to prove it's "Bullocks". Martin King himself has said that the differences between vented and ML-TL become extremely blurry, and that once a vented box has one dimension which is around 3 times the other two dimensions, it edges more towards quarter wave behavior, unless you absorb all the internal standing waves.


No, it's poor implentation of typical ported loudspeaker design, which suffers from lots of response ripple leaking through the vent without lots of internal absorption. Again, this is a ****ing flat pack. Why wouldn`t people set themselves up for success from the initial design stage, rather than compensate for half-assed designingÉ


They're no less difficult to designthan ported, and once designed, are a lot easier to get right. Especially for a noob building a flat pack - since they're not sensitive to inches upon inches of insulation lining to reduce standing waves.



...which is why I was offering to design an ML-TL using Martin's software if everyone else was interested.


There are other drivers which require smaller boxes than the Deltalite.

F3 at 40hz is a lot deeper than F3 at 90hz. And many people do want towers, not giant stand mounts.


NO one said ML-TL is any magic alignment. Again, what's with the attitude?


And you think you're "educating" me with this?

Get over yourself. Some people want ****ing towers. If you don't, no one's stopping YOU from building whatever you want. I was making a suggestion for a flat pack, and people always want tower flat packs. Many are turned off from the econowave format simply because of the stand mount "look".

Any proportionally tall ported loudspeaker will start to behave as a mass loaded transmission line. that's what an ML-TL IS. The only way to rectify that is with extremely aggressive absorption... which is just unecessary... if you can get the same results by modifying a few inches and vent placement.

Why are you even subscribed to this thread? All you do is attack other posters at opportunities where you can prop yourself up. Lose the aggression, it's NOT asked for. Post something productive for once. The rest of us are here because we enjoy this hobby, not to act like know-it-alls. Because you don`t know it all, nor does anyone else in this thread. No one benefits from you flaunting yourself as an expert yet contributing zilch. Er, contributing nada.

Not to get involved in any king of dispute, A9X-308, but you do seem to be groundlessly attacking a good idea... MLTL's are not that difficult to design if you have Marin King's software (and MathCad). Tall ported boxes will not model correctly in WinISD. It seems like a nice idea for a flat pack. I've got a Eminence Delta 12lf in a MLTL and am quite pleased with it.....

Found on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoWSvjDg-U0

I really like the slot port design. My goals would be the smallest form factor that would get to 60Hz. The slot port looks good and keeps the cabinet dimensions to a minimum while keeping it front firing which makes placement easier. I can't wait for designs to start coming in on these!

Greets!

Yes, prosound drivers in general have good specs for such alignments.

Just running the numbers' using published specs for smaller cabs for mounting a horn on top yields a ~5.19 ft^3 net/32 Hz Fb alignment using a 40 path-length with the driver at the top and a 6 dia. x 6 long vent near/at the bottom [1st sim]. A basic reflex alignment stretched in length just enough to be defined as a MLTL, damping the vent enough to lob off ~3 of its length WRT a simple ducted port reflex's ~9 long one.

An even better damped alignment with the same net Vb, Fb, height, driver offset and vent area is a one fold ~80 path-length, zero throat area ML-Voigt pipe with a 2.5 long vent near/at the bottom, lobbing off ~6.5 [2nd sim].

All dims are inside [i.d.] and sims have a minimal 0.25 lbs/ft^3 stuffing density of polyfil.

Anyway, just a couple of examples to prove its viability.

GM

Good news guys. Looks like everything should be arriving in about 2 weeks or so.

Not sure how long customs will look over the compression drivers and parts but I got a call today and was told the shipment should be arriving in Seattle on the 18th and they should be delivered to my place by May 31. I don't know if she was calculating the average time customs will look over everything or not.

What kind of stinks about this is that I have no idea how much customs fees will be or all the taxes they'll be adding in. And brokerage fees too. But it should be a good learning experience. I can't lie, it's all kind of scary and there will be a big relief once it's all here. Fingers crossed that everything goes smoothly.


The raffle drawing for the pre-orders will be towards the end of the month. I'm also going to print something up listing all the people that helped get this done.

Oh boy!

[quote=Eternal Velocity;22012625]Why are you arguing with me then for suggesting it?
And it won't be an accurate sim for anything but a subwoofer.
Comment : Precisely because of this kind of hickhack I have stopped to read this thread. Depressing to watch this kind of agressive and inappropriate exchanges. imo : Eternal Velocity has voiced his personal opinion, no reason to get poisonous against him, even if he were wrong on certain points. Friendly advice : Try to correct the errors of your friends, make better proposals, don't attack people personally. That is good style and constructive attitude.

[quote=Toscano;22034334]
Just be glad there's aren't many women on these threads, just think what they'd turn into.

Any news on the flat packs?

I have confirmation that the items have made land fall in Seattle and everything should be delivered in about 10-11 days or so.

I won't know customs fees, brokerage fees, and duty fees until Tuesday. That worries me a little bit, but it is what it is. There's no turning back now.

I bet you're excited.

In my opinion there shouldn't be duty fees, just a nominal inspection fees. Hopefully it's very little.

Newbie here. Being a musician and having owned various sets of horn speakers over the years, I've always liked the ease with which they handle enormous dynamic range.

Currently I'm in the process of assembling a system that can handle both two-channel (or more) music and 5.1 or 7.1 audio for home theater. I've scoured various AV and audio forums looking for decent sound on the cheap. I must admit that my standards are pretty high, given that I've listened to and played live music for decades (don't ask how many). I've also heard too many high end systems over the years and know what is possible (upgrader's curse?).

Anyway, I fortunately (or is it unfortunately?!) live near a Fry's Electronics (yes, they get too much of my money) and recently was able to purchase some floor-standing, conventional (non-horn) tower speakers recommended by quite a few folks on the Internet that have searched far and wide for "decent-sound-on-a-nickel". I got a ridiculously low price and the sound is quite good, especially given the very small investment.

BUT... (yes, always the but...) I miss the ease with which my old Klipsches present the music. There is a bit too much congestion on these new speakers when large ensembles are performing loud, complex music. I'm also not getting the fullness of sound I'd like. Part of it is that I've not yet purchased a sub, so I'm missing the lowest octave-plus. Part of it is some mid-range congestion, which would likely be helped some by the addition of the sub. Still, I don't believe that crossing over to a sub, say at 80Hz, would completely solve the problems, for reasons I won't get into here.

Anyway, that's all just background leading up to my stumbling upon this thread. I'm very interested in this project of a DIY two-way horn speaker, simply because I believe that it would be nearly ideal for a person with my preferences, which are:

• low distortion

• wide, effortless dynamic range

• dynamic headroom

• flat frequency response

• "full" sound (lower midrange not too thin or "small" sounding)

• and last (but certainly not least), finding that $2-5K/pair sound for dimes on the dollar

• (well... plus I think I'd take pride in putting my BST into this project AND just might really, really LOVE answering questions like "How much did those speakers cost?" and "Where'd you get those?" ...double )

Is it still possible to take part in however this all works? I obviously have not pre-ordered anything. Also, I have never built a speaker before, so would something like a flat-pack be a good start for me? I'm pretty handy and follow instructions well. I also have a friend who has built a number of speakers including some of his own design that could help with probably anything and everything right down to finishing the cabinetry.

So again, is this something I can still get in on? And, do you all think that a newbie can successfully do this build (with possibly some help from an experienced friend)?

Sure, jump right in. Actually very few of the SEOS horns have been delivered so you are getting in early, not late. Regarding build complexity, this is more or less "open source" so some builds will be simple and some will be a complex as you want to make it.

Welcome aboard!

A little history:
Where it all began by Zilch (now passed away), threads are still active, and many designs are ready and available:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...95#post1617195
and
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

Erich, bwaslo, and others picked up the ball and are running with DIYsoundgroup.com, where all types of DIY parts, kits, and designs are or will be available. Typically the waveguide cabinets are nothing special, but the drivers are specially selected and equipped with fine tuned crossovers for premium performance, and are designed around parts readily available. Check out the forum for latest SEOS designs.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/

Most of these cabinet builds should be easy for anyone with prior experience, it really doesn't get any simpler to get phenomenal performance.

Thanks for the welcome, Don and Z. Going to check out those links right away!

BTW, I'm thinking a 2-way, 12-inch SEAS speaker. At this point am I correct in assuming that I would need to build my own cabinets (as opposed to buying a "flat-pack")? If so, I'm guessing I should probably start my foray into DIY with a simpler, much cheaper speaker build that includes cabinets before messing around with something like this that uses higher quality (i.e., higher cost) parts.

This could be fun!

Sorry for all the posts but had to get to three before I can post links. Here's a helpful page I ran across with lots of links to various DIY speaker kits (not SEAS) and resources:
Speaker DIY/Kit Suggestions

I'll have to read more in forums about DIY Speakers, particularly something like this Speaker Building Tutorial. With your help, eventually I'll get this all figured out.

Eh cabinet building is the fun part!!! I have some old advent loudspeaker cabinets a friend GAVE me on hold for an SEOS project. I hope to refinish the wood on the outside in the near future so by the time everything is available Ill just have to just drop the horns and new drivers in! ED could also build you some cabs pretty easily, but I do tend to enjoy building the cabs regardless

Erich did say that some flat packs would more than likely be available with some of the most popular builds IIRC

If you aren't in a hurry and you don't want to cut wood, just wait for Erich H and see what he comes up with for flat packs. Basically you would just need to screw and glue them together then mount the drivers. You would probably need to either paint or veneer them if you want them to look nice.

For more money, you could commission a local kitchen cabinet builder. It is really not very difficult. If you decide to do this, come back to the forum and collectively we could help you spec it out.

As far as budget goes, there will be a wide range of price points hit because of all the hard work Erich has put in. His house-brand compression drivers mated to some plastic SEOS-12's and a Dayton 12" woofer shouldn't break the bank. I'm confident it is well-suited to each of your bullet points. IMO, you would have to search long and hard to find something more well-suited AND reasonably priced (certainly far outmatching any mid-level Klipsch stuff).

Definitely stick and around. You will begin to learn afew things and all of this will start to really makes sense. Just don't be afraid to ask honest questions and accept honest advice.

Thanks. Your reply itself is very helpful. Now the hard part will be waiting for the flat packs. Of course in the meantime I might start with a cheap, simple build and start acquiring tools, parts, knowledge and experience...all the while "de-acquiring" $$$! Ummm...prob'ly not. (C'mon, proven designs and flat packs!)