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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 128

post #3811 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the core concept of a high sensitivity 2-way with controlled directivity was advanced and refined by many companies over the years, but as waf set in during the early '90s, big hair was out and so were big speakers.

then we went through the dark ages of modern audio--bose cubes, tiny towers, and the rest of it.

recently, we have had a renaissance in audio where big, high efficiency speakers are making a comeback...

because these systems tend to rely on expensive components, many people get priced out of the market as a result of multiple retail markups. then enter a few diy companies with good offerings and z with his econowave project.

many thought that was a good as it could get $ for $ and if you were one of them, you'd be wrong. enter the SEOStm project. somehow across the past 126 pages of the thread were people coming in from all directions to create something new, something that the diy community had never seen before--a ground up development of a waveguide that minimizes compromises in a two-way design. folks have stepped in with money and time, crossover designs, engineered new compression drivers, and flatpack enclosures are the next step. it is getting really close. just a little more time and the final product is going to be really difficult to beat bang-for-the-buck. high sensitivity/large dynamics, low distortion, NO HORN HONK, controlled/matched directivity, speakers, in low cost flat pack "kits" for 75% less than the cost of comparable retail.

You're totally in sync with me here, LTD! I've paid particular attention to home audio speakers for a looong time and from what I've seen and heard over the past 15-20 years, the sound is NOT the part that has been getting "better" for average Joe Consumer. Marketing? Check. Appearance/WAF? Check, at least in many cases. Quality of drivers, crossovers, cabinets, build quality and sound? Ummm, nope, 'fraid not.

The inexpensive towers I recently bought, while decent, simply cannot muster the full-bodied sound of many of yesteryear's speakers. Sure they might image better at lower volumes and maybe even spec out better thanks to CAD and technological improvements. But there's something about these multiple-mid/bass-drivers-in-slender-HT-friendly-high-WAF towers (which everyone seems to be turning out these days) that always leaves them sounding a bit lean or sterile to me. The music does not move my soul. Sure, they're great for HT where the slightly lean sound crisps up the dialogue and there will be plenty of low bass rumble from the ubiquitous HT sub.

But I'm looking for speed, quickness, delicacy AND the roundness of a French horn, the warmth of a cello, the body of a clarinet, the soul of the human voice. I've heard transparent AND full, delicate AND powerful in a number of admittedly very pricey speakers. It's definitely possible. Like you, I believe the type of speakers that are being built here are going to get people like myself at least 98% of the way there for about, well, what you said one-quarter or less of the cost of purchasing retail or Internet direct. For most of us, we (and our pocketbooks) can do without that last two percent.
post #3812 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pianoman88 View Post

Like you, I believe the type of speakers that are being built here are going to get people like myself at least 98% of the way there for about, well, what you said one-quarter or less of the cost of purchasing retail or Internet direct. For most of us, we (and our pocketbooks) can do without that last two percent.

The lower budget builds will get you 98% of the way there. IMO, the slightly higher budget builds (basically just a more expensive woofer) will get you beyond 100% assuming 100% represents the similar present commercial offerings. Of course, I'm only talking about performance. It is tough to match the finish of $3-4k speakers although there are some around here that can do that. I'm not one of them. My woodworking looks like a 6 year old's art project.
post #3813 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The lower budget builds will get you 98% of the way there. IMO, the slightly higher budget builds (basically just a more expensive woofer) will get you beyond 100% assuming 100% represents the similar present commercial offerings. Of course, I'm only talking about performance. It is tough to match the finish of $3-4k speakers although there are some around here that can do that. I'm not one of them. My woodworking looks like a 6 year old's art project.

I'm in the same stage as Piano Man. I'm looking to update my aging 5.1 system and have been looking toward horn loaded speakers (Klipch, Bic, etc.). I've also been itching to try my hand at a speaker/sub build, but stink at wood working. I've got friends who can help with the wood, but would prefer to buy flat packs.

So, my question is will there be a LCR configuration for flat packs? I noticed you have MTM flat packs for the Overnight Sensation. And I'm assuming there will also be smaller flat packs that can be used for sides.

Sorry for the newbie questions. I started walking through all the threads here, HT Shack, PE, etc. and my eyes are crossing on depth of info. Need to step back and see if this will work for a 5.1 -> 7.1 set up.

Thanks all for the help and kudos on a fabulous project.
post #3814 of 9844
What are the issues with running a larger woofer than waveguide? Let's say an 15 or 18 on a SEOS 12.

Dispersion? Crossover points?

Thanks,
Steve
post #3815 of 9844
Can anyone give me and idea at how these might compare to the Klipsch RB-75's, RC-7 and RS-7's? It's what I currently own.
post #3816 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The lower budget builds will get you 98% of the way there. IMO, the slightly higher budget builds (basically just a more expensive woofer) will get you beyond 100% assuming 100% represents the similar present commercial offerings. Of course, I'm only talking about performance. It is tough to match the finish of $3-4k speakers although there are some around here that can do that. I'm not one of them. My woodworking looks like a 6 year old's art project.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing about performance. Beyond 100% may be what I'm looking for. I just hope that a few proven designs offering different cost/quality levels of drivers will spring forth, particularly in the 12" woof/12" SEOS configuration. Seems like this would hit the sweet spot for many of us.
post #3817 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoFinWiley View Post

What are the issues with running a larger woofer than waveguide? Let's say an 15 or 18 on a SEOS 12.

Dispersion? Crossover points?

Thanks,
Steve

+1.
Like the JBL 2226H with the SEOS 12.
post #3818 of 9844
post #3819 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by louisdamani View Post

+1.
Like the JBL 2226H with the SEOS 12.

+2

I have a pair of 2226H's waiting for a build with the SEOS 12.
post #3820 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

Can anyone give me and idea at how these might compare to the Klipsch RB-75's, RC-7 and RS-7's? It's what I currently own.

They seem a lot like a two-way Heresy.
post #3821 of 9844
For what it's worth, I've got about 10 of the JBL 2226 models, but they're 16 Ohm. I took a photo of them yesterday and will be posting them shortly. I think they were $125 each from the big JBL group buy thread. But I need to buy shipping boxes which will only add a couple dollars.

I also gathered up all the SEOS models I've had sitting around. There are some SEOS-18's, 15's, 10's, 8's and 6's if anyone wants to try them. I need to move some of this stuff out before the "Big Delivery of 2012".
post #3822 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post


I also gathered up all the SEOS models I've had sitting around. There are some SEOS- 8's and 6's if anyone wants to try them.

Are these the fibreglass or cheap plastic? I'd like to get designing some small speakers using these. But the fibreglass are over my budget. Not sure what woofer I'd put with them either. I have the silver flutes 6 and 8" 8 ohm versions. I gotta grab more woofers. My selections has gotten boring.
post #3823 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Are these the fibreglass or cheap plastic? I'd like to get designing some small speakers using these. But the fibreglass are over my budget. Not sure what woofer I'd put with them either. I have the silver flutes 6 and 8" 8 ohm versions. I gotta grab more woofers. My selections has gotten boring.



They're the fiberglass models. Plastic is only for the 12".

I've got the pricing for all the poured resin models but I want to double check and make sure that the selling price is actually enough to cover shipping a pallet to the US. I'm not sure it is right now. A pallet from Poland along with customs fees, taxes, and all shipping charges has been between $1850 - $1960 for the past 3 pallets. With a pallet of cheaper items I just want to make sure I break even. The first time, I'm not sure I did, but that's the price to pay for the project.

The 2nd pallet was a loss because someone ordered over $2k worth of stuff that's still sitting from last year. And the 3rd pallet has extra things that people ordered and decided not to pay for as well. (at least haven't paid yet) That *really*......really stinks. Not sure I can do this in the future without taking some type of deposit on the more expensive items.


Regardless, I will get pricing for the poured models figured out shortly. BWaslo looked them over and gave the thumbs up, but I want to double check driver mounting to make sure everything is okay.
post #3824 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

With a pallet of cheaper items I just want to make sure I break even. The first time, I'm not sure I did, but that's the price to pay for the project.

That's not the price to pay. If you have something against making a profit, I suggest this. Make a 10% profit (that's quite small) on everything you're selling. Take that 10% and keep it for yourself. But if you really have something against making a profit, stick that 10% back into the system to bring even more DIY supplies/drivers/flat packs to the community. This ensures you don't lose money, and there's no profit gouging. Nobody would complain about a little cream off the top to make sure you don't lose money.

I know this has been batted around. Just would suck to see you crash and burn. What's good for the goose is good for the gander ya know.

Wish I had lots of money to buy some of the extras from you. I really don't though Good luck.
post #3825 of 9844
Erich, do you have a place where we can all look and see what you are sitting on parts and drivers wise. Maybe an additional tab on your site? I know I am in no position currently to buy what I want from you, but it may be an avenue to move that investment to others in the community.

I have been reading this thread since its inception. This is an epic task you have taken on. It will go down as such. If there is one thing I know from reading here over the years, we all stick together and help each other out. From countless PM's I have exchanged with you and so many others to the wealth of information and open exchange, although sometimes heated, of ideas and ideas. We all come here seeking the same thing, enjoying the craft.

I am positive I don't speak strictly for myself when I say, let us know what we can do to help this epic project move in the right direction.

Chris
post #3826 of 9844
Let's say someone wanted to do a MTM or MMT with the 16ohm 2226's. Would anyone with crossover experience be willing to help with something like that? Assuming he has 6 left
post #3827 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

That's not the price to pay. If you have something against making a profit, I suggest this. Make a 10% profit (that's quite small) on everything you're selling. Take that 10% and keep it for yourself. But if you really have something against making a profit, stick that 10% back into the system to bring even more DIY supplies/drivers/flat packs to the community. This ensures you don't lose money, and there's no profit gouging. Nobody would complain about a little cream off the top to make sure you don't lose money.

I know this has been batted around. Just would suck to see you crash and burn. What's good for the goose is good for the gander ya know.

Wish I had lots of money to buy some of the extras from you. I really don't though Good luck.

Profit has not been the drive for this stuff. I just want to make sure break even on the items from Poland. Well any items for that matter.

In the future if it gets really hectic, and I actually need to hire help, then things could change. But I wouldn't raise prices for anything up to that point, at least nothing crazy. If that happened, things could get very interesting because I could put even more time and effort towards all of this.

I've talked it over with a few forum members but I honestly haven't made any concrete decisions about it because I do have a small landscaping business already. And my knowledge is very limited for crossover work. So that means most of what gets done is directly tied to the knowledge of the DIY crowd. Take that away and there's not much left besides some compression drivers, maybe some woofers, and subwoofers. I did have to set up another business name to get some of these things done because the landscaping name wasn't cutting it. That took all of 30 minutes to do though.

Basically if I knew the DIY community wouldn't mind and/or they could somehow also make money for their crossover designs, I'd probably do it. I set the donation buttons up on my site to check to see if people would donate to the designers. But that hasn't panned out like I hoped. Lilmike did get a decent number for his Anarchy TH, but not much money.


Chances are I'll make a decision in the next month or so.
post #3828 of 9844
As discussed earlier in this thread, a 15" woofer is a very good match for the SEOS-12, probably even better than a 12" woofer, allowing more advantage to be taken of the WG's ability to hold pattern control down to the lower XO freq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoFinWiley View Post

What are the issues with running a larger woofer than waveguide? Let's say an 15 or 18 on a SEOS 12.
post #3829 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosifee View Post

They seem a lot like a two-way Heresy.

I don't know much about the Heresy. Was mostly curious if the SEOS would be an improvement or not. The RB 75's are good with movies and rock music, but not so much with classical and dance music.
post #3830 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As discussed earlier in this thread, a 15" woofer is a very good match for the SEOS-12, probably even better than a 12" woofer, allowing more advantage to be taken of the WG's ability to hold pattern control down to the lower XO freq.

just be aware the 16 ohm version of the 2226 has twice the Le of the 8 ohm version and therefore an earlier high end roll off - so you'll lose some SPL flattening the response
post #3831 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Let's say someone wanted to do a MTM or MMT with the 16ohm 2226's. Would anyone with crossover experience be willing to help with something like that? Assuming he has 6 left

The tough thing about MMT with dual 15" woofers is the Center-center distance. It would require a lower crossover (~700-800hz) than you can achieve with the 1" exit compression drivers (although Erich might have one he is cooking up...it would still need the SEOS-18 to get a directivity match.

I would suggest mating a SEOS-12 or 15 to a single 16ohm 2226J. You can either run active DSP and ohm mismatches are inconsequential, or you could use a 16ohm compression driver. You could use an 8 ohm compression driver but IMO that is less than ideal because the lower impedance CD would require lots of padding.

If you can take measurements, I'd be willing to sim crossovers. I'm sure others would help too.
post #3832 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The tough thing about MMT with dual 15" woofers is the Center-center distance. It would require a lower crossover (~700-800hz) than you can achieve with the 1" exit compression drivers (although Erich might have one he is cooking up...it would still need the SEOS-18 to get a directivity match.

I would suggest mating a SEOS-12 or 15 to a single 16ohm 2226J. You can either run active DSP and ohm mismatches are inconsequential, or you could use a 16ohm compression driver. You could use an 8 ohm compression driver but IMO that is less than ideal because the lower impedance CD would require lots of padding.

If you can take measurements, I'd be willing to sim crossovers. I'm sure others would help too.


I don't have any measuring equipment. I very much appreciate your willingness to help. Those days are in the future for me. Was just trying to think of a project for someone to unload those drivers. At the moment the 4pi's are still the direction I want to go until we get some SEOS + 2226H w/ passives out. I have the time to wait and see where all this goes and am highly anticipating what the experts here come up with.

Chris
post #3833 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post

just be aware the 16 ohm version of the 2226 has twice the Le of the 8 ohm version and therefore an earlier high end roll off - so you'll lose some SPL flattening the response

I don't understand? Usually you end up attenuating the high end anyways. IME, the limiting factor for SPL is always the 100 to 200hz sensitivity (assuming crossing to subs below 100hz).
post #3834 of 9844
If by contrast I simulate a TD12M, which has very low Le, vented with an unaggressive Fbox then I get a response that is just about flat from the high Xover point down to Fbox. To get the same with the 2226, I've got to do ~8 db of equ. That is all I was saying.

I suppose that ultimately you get 6 of those 8 db back from baffle step. Technically I was correct - you lose 2 db. But its not as big a hit as I was thinking. Thanks for pointing that out.
post #3835 of 9844
Quote:
I've paid particular attention to home audio speakers for a looong time and from what I've seen and heard over the past 15-20 years, the sound is NOT the part that has been getting "better" for average Joe Consumer. Marketing? Check. Appearance/WAF? Check, at least in many cases. Quality of drivers, crossovers, cabinets, build quality and sound? Ummm, nope, 'fraid not.

EH, that's a broad generalization that I'd have to disagree with. While the low end will never appeal to the audiophile, the upper mid to high end certainly has been improving. A few world class commercial speakers that are available now that were not around in the 1990s, include Audiokinesis, Gedlee, Salk, Seaton, Audio Artistry.

I don't know how you can say there's been no progress given the above list alone.

Quote:
The inexpensive towers I recently bought, while decent, simply cannot muster the full-bodied sound of many of yesteryear's speakers.

But you're comparing one pair of inexpensive speakers, to "many" of yesteryear's speakers. Am I the only one who sees the issue?

Quote:
Sure they might image better at lower volumes and maybe even spec out better thanks to CAD and technological improvements. But there's something about these multiple-mid/bass-drivers-in-slender-HT-friendly-high-WAF towers (which everyone seems to be turning out these days) that always leaves them sounding a bit lean or sterile to me.

There has been a shift towards a more forward sound lately, but is that because it's "lean and sterile" or because yesterdyear's sound was "tubby and bloated"? I have to wonder. Beyond that, there's a lot of "You hear what you see" involved. Why would a speaker with three 8" woofers for example, by any less capable than a speaker with a single 12? I know I've got some 15 inch woofers on order - but I'm doing it for the directivity advantages only. I'm sure I could get the same output from multiple small drivers on a thing tower - just not the directivity match to a SEOS-15.

Quote:
But I'm looking for speed, quickness, delicacy AND the roundness of a French horn, the warmth of a cello, the body of a clarinet, the soul of the human voice.

Well the latter criteria are very much a consequence of the crossover/voicing/measured behavior. The former three all seem to be synonyms for the same thing.

Quote:
Like you, I believe the type of speakers that are being built here are going to get people like myself at least 98% of the way there for about, well, what you said one-quarter or less of the cost of purchasing retail or Internet direct. For most of us, we (and our pocketbooks) can do without that last two percent.

I'm hoping that the SEOS-15 + Compression driver lives up to my expectations. But honestly I do suspect I'll lose the resolution that i'd get from, say, the Philharmonic 2 speakers I've got on order. That's why I'm ordering both - I can do a direct comparision.

Quote:
I just hope that a few proven designs offering different cost/quality levels of drivers will spring forth, particularly in the 12" woof/12" SEOS configuration. Seems like this would hit the sweet spot for many of us.

That's why 12" was chosen for the plastic SEOS - BTW Bill Waslo has put out a crossover design for the SEOS-12 + Eminence Delta 12 already on the DIY Sound Group forums, in case you missed it.

Quote:
What are the issues with running a larger woofer than waveguide? Let's say an 15 or 18 on a SEOS 12.

The 18 is probably stretching it, but I'm sure the 15 should have decent horizontal response. You do lose some CTC spacing and polar perfection though, I'd bet.

Quote:
Let's say someone wanted to do a MTM or MMT with the 16ohm 2226's. Would anyone with crossover experience be willing to help with something like that? Assuming he has 6 left

While a TMM or MTM would make sense for PA with a 2 inch compression driver, for a home application it just seems like the pros (more output/sensitivity) imo are gonna be outweighed by the cons ( vertical polar response, price, size, probably even coherency)
post #3836 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

I don't know much about the Heresy. Was mostly curious if the SEOS would be an improvement or not. The RB 75's are good with movies and rock music, but not so much with classical and dance music.



I replaced my RF system with the Heresy clones and never looked back.

post #3837 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I replaced my RF system with the Heresy clones and never looked back.


Wow...So you like them.

I'm in the process of building some Statements for a friend in Mountain View, CA, but have 3 of the SEOS on order with Eric. Thinking of buying a couple more. I think I'll be putting the Klipsch in my fiancee's studio. I plan on using them as our PA system for our wedding reception, which will be on our deck. Been a very educational thread.
post #3838 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

I don't know much about the Heresy. Was mostly curious if the SEOS would be an improvement or not. The RB 75's are good with movies and rock music, but not so much with classical and dance music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I replaced my RF system with the Heresy clones and never looked back.


In a past life, my ex and I had Heresys flanking the television. We were shopping for something else one day and decided to duck into an audio store and hear the RFs just to satisfy our curiosity, and as luck would have it there were a few songs on their demo CD that were also in our music collection, so we were pretty familiar with them.

I'll skip to the meaty bits. The RF7s were nice -- really nice -- and they were different from the Heresys. We both liked them, but we both agreed the Heresys weren't going anywhere.

Those same Heresys now serve surround duty for a set of La Scalas across the front, and if I didn't have the La Scalas now, I'd be giving serious thought to a 5.1 of these. As it is I think a pair might find its way to my bedroom if I can sell off my Chorus/Quartet/Academy set.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.
post #3839 of 9844
Just a quick update.

I filled out all the broker forms on Monday for the shipping company. But then they said that broker could not sign off because I don't have an "annual bond".

So the shipping company put me in contact with a different broker. I just got back from getting all papers notarized and will be sending the paperwork.

I don't know if this will slow things down by a day or two, or not at all. As of now, they said things would arrive around May 31.

They haven't told me what customs fees and taxes are yet because I think the broker has to sign off on the stuff first.
post #3840 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Just a quick update.

I filled out all the broker forms on Monday for the shipping company. But then they said that broker could not sign off because I don't have an "annual bond".

So the shipping company put me in contact with a different broker. I just got back from getting all papers notarized and will be sending the paperwork.

I don't know if this will slow things down by a day or two, or not at all. As of now, they said things would arrive around May 31.

They haven't told me what customs fees and taxes are yet because I think the broker has to sign off on the stuff first.

Its amazing the complexity of such things and how the cost inches up after every step tacks on their associated costs......
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