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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 131

post #3901 of 7638
5/29/12 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Just keep in mind that dual 2226J's won't work well with the SEOS waveguides because it will cause null spacing issues."

there is always the MTM design or a 2.5 design with the bottom woofer rolled off with an inductor as the everest does for folks who feel one 2226 isn't sufficient.

I don't suggest a MTM with woofer spacing that wide. Some people do it but not me.

I don't see much point to a 2.5way unless you want to run sans subwoofer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I'd still end up with a high sensitivity design, since the CD is quite a bit higher sensitivity anyway, correct?"

yes, but a 16ohm driver will be 3db less sensitive than an 8ohm driver given the same voltage. if you have a "100 watt" receiver (28.3 volts into 8ohms), the 2226h will be at about 117db @1m, while the 2226j will be at about 114db @1m. in all other ways, they will be the same (distortion, power compression, etc.).

"What would the likely impedence load be?"
if you stick a resistor in line with the compression driver like bwaslo suggested, both the top and bottom would be 16ohms, so 16ohms (nominal). it is actually an easier load on your amp, but the tradeoff is that last 3db that i just mentioned.

Yep, it effectively halves the power of the amp. It does make for an easier load to drive though.
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post #3902 of 7638
5/29/12 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

or just use 8ohm de250 with a series 8ohm resistor. It needs attenuation anyway, nothing lost.

Right, I don't see why padding is an issue; even at high levels the average power dissipated in the CD and the padding resistor is probably a watt or two.
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post #3903 of 7638
5/29/12 at 12:15pm
I just stumbled upon this after a suggestion from another forum member... will definitely be following the SEOS project....
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post #3904 of 7638
5/29/12 at 1:07pm
Well... I guess it's a go for me on the 2226J's. I listen at very moderate levels so efficiency isn't a critical factor. There are some new very reasonably price DIY digital amps available nowadays if I need some more muscle. I'll use my tube mono blocks for the compression drivers.

It could be 2 or 3 more months before the TD15m's arrive.
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post #3905 of 7638
5/29/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

Well... I guess it's a go for me on the 2226J's. I listen at very moderate levels so efficiency isn't a critical factor. There are some new very reasonably price DIY digital amps available nowadays if I need some more muscle. I'll use my tube mono blocks for the compression drivers.

It could be 2 or 3 more months before the TD15m's arrive.

If you are planning to go active, then it is really no big deal. Driving a 95db+ sensitive 16ohm woofer will be very easy.

I'd suggest using a compression driver with a ohm rating that matches your tube amps the best. What tube amps are you using?

Ideally you will have at least 100w on tap for the woofer but more is always better. If you don't mind fan noise, there are a number of pro amps that would work well. If you don't want fan noise you will be stuck with HiFi amps which ups the price some.
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post #3906 of 7638
5/29/12 at 2:44pm
For what it's worth, one of the forum members bought 6 of the JBL's last year and ended up using just 2. He ran them as singles in bass bins and said they were plenty loud for his needs. And I think he was running them sealed too.

If two of them work for a commercial theater speaker, my guess is that one would be okay in your house.
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post #3907 of 7638
5/29/12 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If two of them work for a commercial theater speaker, my guess is that one would be okay in your house.

True, but to be fair old-school theaters (heck, even newer ones) had bass levels that were "modest" at best (not very low, somewhat loud).
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post #3908 of 7638
5/29/12 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

True, but to be fair old-school theaters (heck, even newer ones) had bass levels that were "modest" at best (not very low, somewhat loud).

These aren't subwoofer drivers. A single 2226J per channel will give most anyone adequate headroom and low distortion down to ~40hz. From at least 80hz down you need to augment with subwoofer(s).

Certainly there are advantages to dual woofers, but the advantages are small in a home setting. It isn't even vital in a small commercial theater setting and JBL sells one pro cinema setup with a single woofer less capable than the 2226. In fact, JBL's current second from top of the line speaker uses just dual 2226s and that would be adequate for rooms >10x the size of a typical HT.
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post #3909 of 7638
5/29/12 at 5:19pm
So, bottom line - to go with SEOS-12 - if you could get a nice deal on the 2226Js (16 Ohm, 97 dB 1W/1m, 600W power handling), and you could also get a nice deal on Eminence Deltalite II 2512s (8 Ohm, 99.9 dB 1W/1m, 250W power handling)- which would you choose? If the power handling is to be believed, its a tradeoff of 6 dB in sensitivity?

I'd prefer to continue to power them off my 100 wpc AVR, as I am doing today with my CHT speakers - but I rarely go above -10 dB from reference - and I sit 12' from the speakers.
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post #3910 of 7638
5/29/12 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

So, bottom line - to go with SEOS-12 - if you could get a nice deal on the 2226Js (16 Ohm, 97 dB 1W/1m, 600W power handling), and you could also get a nice deal on Eminence Deltalite II 2512s (8 Ohm, 99.9 dB 1W/1m, 250W power handling)- which would you choose? If the power handling is to be believed, its a tradeoff of 6 dB in sensitivity?

I'd prefer to continue to power them off my 100 wpc AVR, as I am doing today with my CHT speakers - but I rarely go above -10 dB from reference - and I sit 12' from the speakers.

I would definitely go with the 2226J. First, the DeltaLite 2512 isn't actually 100db sensitive. It is effectively about 95-97db. Second, the 2226 is a superior driver in every other way.

Both will work well, but the 2226 is simply a much better woofer.
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post #3911 of 7638
5/29/12 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

So, bottom line - to go with SEOS-12 - if you could get a nice deal on the 2226Js (16 Ohm, 97 dB 1W/1m, 600W power handling), and you could also get a nice deal on Eminence Deltalite II 2512s (8 Ohm, 99.9 dB 1W/1m, 250W power handling)- which would you choose? If the power handling is to be believed, its a tradeoff of 6 dB in sensitivity?

I'd prefer to continue to power them off my 100 wpc AVR, as I am doing today with my CHT speakers - but I rarely go above -10 dB from reference - and I sit 12' from the speakers.

IMO the real questions on these are spl capability with avail power and crossover.

The power handling of a 16ohm driver is moot unless you bridging something like a Large pro amp on it b/c it takes a MONSTER amp to push 600W into 16ohms......

Youll be lucky to see 40W out an AVR rated at 100wpch(8ohms) into 16ohms and thats a generous evaluation based on how AVR manufacturers rate them.

Calculate how much spl youll see with your power and see fir yourself. Basically the Eminence is 4x as loud on the same amp, considering the impedance load and efficiency...... How much spl do you want/need?

That leaves the crossover, and if bwaslo(or someone else) aint gonna do a good passive crossover for it, it dont matter what woofer you put in there its gonna stink.......
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post #3912 of 7638
5/29/12 at 7:38pm
Or, as cocostan said, go active. Get yourself something to measure response with (I might put in a plug here for OmniMic, but you could also use REW if you have a decent mic and soundcard and some learning time). Then setting up a MiniDSP crossover is almost trivial to do, pick the crossover points, tweak some parameteric EQ values to make them behave, adjust delay to make the crossover points sum instead of notch, and add some EQ if you want to balance things. No need then to wait for anyone to design a crossover.
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post #3913 of 7638
5/29/12 at 10:05pm
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Or, as cocostan said, go active.

I'm trying to keep the budget fairly, well, budget - seems like going active will bust that pretty quick - MiniDSP not a big deal, but would also require going from AVR powered to six additional channels of amplification, unless I'm missing something. And running additional speaker wire to the LCR locations.

(I do have REW and hardware, so that's not an issue)
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post #3914 of 7638
5/30/12 at 12:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

If you are planning to go active, then it is really no big deal. Driving a 95db+ sensitive 16ohm woofer will be very easy.

I'd suggest using a compression driver with a ohm rating that matches your tube amps the best. What tube amps are you using?

Ideally you will have at least 100w on tap for the woofer but more is always better. If you don't mind fan noise, there are a number of pro amps that would work well. If you don't want fan noise you will be stuck with HiFi amps which ups the price some.

I'm using Heathkit W5m monoblocks ( 25w/channel) that have been updated and modded and an AVA T7 pre. The Heathkits have 4, 8 and 16 ohm taps. I'm using the 16 ohm tap with my current speakers (96db). There seems to be all the power I need. I also have 2 of the group buy Anarchy tapped horn subs and another 12" sub that's out of commission at this time. I may be converting it to a sealed Rhymik sub sometime in the future.
I also have a couple of Trends 10.1 digital amps (15w/channel) available. In addition I'm considering one of these if I feel the need for more power which I probably will.http://classdaudio.com/class-d-audio-amplifiers-1.html Here's a long AC thread dealing with these amps.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0

I plan on going active. 90% music 10% movies. Eventually I'll get an AVR and set up some sort of HT although it would be nice if my main speaker + subs would be so holograhic that I wouldn't feel the need for more channels. I'm not into head banging volume.
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post #3915 of 7638
5/30/12 at 1:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

I'm using Heathkit W5m monoblocks ( 25w/channel) that have been updated and modded and an AVA T7 pre. The Heathkits have 4, 8 and 16 ohm taps. I'm using the 16 ohm tap with my current speakers (96db). There seems to be all the power I need. I also have 2 of the group buy Anarchy tapped horn subs and another 12" sub that's out of commission at this time. I may be converting it to a sealed Rhymik sub sometime in the future.
I also have a couple of Trends 10.1 digital amps (15w/channel) available. In addition I'm considering one of these if I feel the need for more power which I probably will.http://classdaudio.com/class-d-audio-amplifiers-1.html Here's a long AC thread dealing with these amps.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0

I plan on going active. 90% music 10% movies. Eventually I'll get an AVR and set up some sort of HT although it would be nice if my main speaker + subs would be so holograhic that I wouldn't feel the need for more channels. I'm not into head banging volume.

diy amps no fun to build though
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post #3916 of 7638
5/30/12 at 4:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I'm trying to keep the budget fairly, well, budget - seems like going active will bust that pretty quick - MiniDSP not a big deal, but would also require going from AVR powered to six additional channels of amplification, unless I'm missing something. And running additional speaker wire to the LCR locations.

(I do have REW and hardware, so that's not an issue)

Yeah, it adds up. I see two options then:

1. Go with Bwaslo's design. You will enjoy it and it will fit your budget with minimal hassle.

2. Go with some 2226J's and your choice of CD (DE250 or clone, 4550, Radian 475). Take measurements, start a thread and have the community design your passive crossover. This is a higher performance route, but obviously a little more work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

I'm using Heathkit W5m monoblocks ( 25w/channel) that have been updated and modded and an AVA T7 pre. The Heathkits have 4, 8 and 16 ohm taps. I'm using the 16 ohm tap with my current speakers (96db). There seems to be all the power I need. I also have 2 of the group buy Anarchy tapped horn subs and another 12" sub that's out of commission at this time. I may be converting it to a sealed Rhymik sub sometime in the future.
I also have a couple of Trends 10.1 digital amps (15w/channel) available. In addition I'm considering one of these if I feel the need for more power which I probably will.http://classdaudio.com/class-d-audio-amplifiers-1.html Here's a long AC thread dealing with these amps.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0

I plan on going active. 90% music 10% movies. Eventually I'll get an AVR and set up some sort of HT although it would be nice if my main speaker + subs would be so holograhic that I wouldn't feel the need for more channels. I'm not into head banging volume.

The Heathkits should work fine on either the woofer or CD. Ideally, you would use it on the CD and find a stout solid state (AB or D) for the woofer. You could also try the Trends 10.1 on the CD and HeathKits on the woofer. I don't think the Trends is going to give you enough juice on the woofer.

Double check with ClassDaudio.com to make sure their kits will work fine with a nominal 16ohm load. They should, but you should check first since they list 2ohm-8ohm.
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post #3917 of 7638
5/30/12 at 6:26am
All this talk of 2226's

If anyone stumbles across some 2226's for rebuild, let me know...

I just missed a single on the 'bay by $5...
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post #3918 of 7638
5/30/12 at 6:49am
Thread Starter 
"I would definitely go with the 2226J. First, the DeltaLite 2512 isn't actually 100db sensitive. It is effectively about 95-97db. Second, the 2226 is a superior driver in every other way."

+1

also, there is a guy in chicagoland who will design passive crossovers for free.

http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...design-service
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post #3919 of 7638
5/30/12 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg40403 View Post

All this talk of 2226's

If anyone stumbles across some 2226's for rebuild, let me know...

I just missed a single on the 'bay by $5...

Check craigslist. I know here in asheville there is a guy that has three but they have been reconed...
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post #3920 of 7638
5/30/12 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

2. Go with some 2226J's and your choice of CD (DE250 or clone, 4550, Radian 475). Take measurements, start a thread and have the community design your passive crossover. This is a higher performance route, but obviously a little more work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I would definitely go with the 2226J. First, the DeltaLite 2512 isn't actually 100db sensitive. It is effectively about 95-97db. Second, the 2226 is a superior driver in every other way."

+1

also, there is a guy in chicagoland who will design passive crossovers for free.

http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...design-service

Thanks again guys.

Erich, please put me down for 3 of the 2226Js. I will follow up with a PM to get in the queue.
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post #3921 of 7638
5/30/12 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

2. Go with some 2226J's and your choice of CD (DE250 or clone, 4550, Radian 475).

what is the exit angle for that radian unit?
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post #3922 of 7638
5/30/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Basically the Eminence is 4x as loud on the same amp, considering the impedance load and efficiency......

As coctostan said, the Eminence is not as efficient as its spec's say, as it's given at 1 kHz; look at the SPL at 200 Hz for a more realistic nymber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bg40403 View Post

I just missed a single on the 'bay by $5...

Maybe you did, maybe you didn't; you don't know how high the other guy was willing to go.
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post #3923 of 7638
5/30/12 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As coctostan said, the Eminence is not as efficient as its spec's say, as it's given at 1 kHz; look at the SPL at 200 Hz for a more realistic nymber.

You guys are absolutely right, I was just using the specs presented as reference info for the question at hand.

The Eminence peaks up quite a bit toward the top end and it has to be effectively tamed so really doesn't represent the true operating range sensitivity of the driver.....

Prob only twice as loud or 3-4db.... on the same amp..... At these levels though who is complaining about sensitivity anyways?
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post #3924 of 7638
5/30/12 at 12:45pm
All this talk about the 2226j's.... Wouldn't it be easier to find the 2226h's off Ebay (i've been looking, there have been some mighty fine deals)?

Just use one per channel for L/C/R and don't worry about the impedance because they are 8ohms.
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post #3925 of 7638
5/30/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

what is the exit angle for that radian unit?

11.4deg - 475pb
13deg - 450pb

I don't recall the 465pb but I believe it is sub 10deg so I'd stick to either the 475 or 450.
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post #3926 of 7638
5/30/12 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsnasty View Post

All this talk about the 2226j's.... Wouldn't it be easier to find the 2226h's off Ebay (i've been looking, there have been some mighty fine deals)?

Just use one per channel for L/C/R and don't worry about the impedance because they are 8ohms.

The only 2226H's I see on Ebay are priced $100 over what they can be bought for. There is one person listing a couple for $450 + shipping. They have been there a while and will be at that price. He took one out and "tested" it as well. I look just about every day.
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post #3927 of 7638
5/30/12 at 1:44pm
I just got 4 2226H's complete with the 4648A cabinets in awesome condition for $800.00 There are deals out there, just gotta find em.
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post #3928 of 7638
5/30/12 at 2:16pm
I got 2 from this seller. I used the make an offer and paid less than listed. They only have one left now though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-2226H-15...#ht_500wt_1284
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post #3929 of 7638
5/30/12 at 2:19pm
Just a word of caution but make sure you are getting either original cones or legit JBL recones when you buy used.
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post #3930 of 7638
5/30/12 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Just a word of caution but make sure you are getting either original cones or legit JBL recones when you buy used.

Thanks. I read the sellers description. Checked their feedback reviews and checked their website. They lock to be original.
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