Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 141

Just got my Seos-12s and DNA-360s today, and....WOW! Erich, you are the MAN! You may be a diy'er at heart, but this equipment is all pro. This is how diy should be! I didn't realize how beefy these waveguides would be- they give a very satisfying "I'm getting ready to go do some serious work" feeling in hand. Also, thanks for the bolts that you included- very nice touch! Those of you waiting on your goods... it's well worth it. Big high five to Erich, Bill and diysoundgroup! YES!!

John

Shipping was about 3 days from Ohio to California... Not bad!

 

The compression drivers are HEAVY. I crapped myself when one of the CD's came in contact with another CD because of the magnet. I was a little excited and took everything out. Luckily everything is fine...

 

Nicely packed, had foam pieces flying everywhere. Compression drivers came each in its own box. Two screws and two split washers for each CD.

 

I do see some blemishes on the waveguides so they aren't perfect, it doesn't bother me. Not asking for a refund or anything like that...

 

Looks like tape residue but its not. 2 out of 3 waveguides have this.

 

Where the CD meets the waveguide are some scratches, a little rough like someone used a razor blade to clean it up. All 3 have this. You can also see the tape like residue.

BTW, the hole for the CD is perfectly round, the camera angle makes it look weird.

 

Two small pin holes but it doesn't go all the way through. Only 1 of the waveguides have this.

 

Once again, not asking for a refund or replacement, just a heads up. So tied up on my subwoofer builds right now I don't know when I'm going to start this, could be a month from now. Good thing is that some new designs will show up in a couple months.

Edited by Mrkazador - 6/17/12 at 1:23am

You know what I'm starting to consider?

Drilling holes into the upper/lower walls of a pair of SEOS-12s and trying out a unity horn for my car....
Someone stop me

What would that gain you? One of the drivers can cover the whole SEOS12's range. Or is it to get the midranges closer to the tweeter and centered?

If you try it, I'm using the little 2" buyout midranges from Parts Express in my Synergy build, they work quite well for it and cost just about nothing.

That's the main thing, especially in-car (where early reflections are that much worse so waveguides are that much more ideal), and since it's a 40 degree in the vertical which i've read is preferable in that kind of speaker to get the drivers close.

Obviously you can't be putting 10 inch mids in your car ;P

Keep in mind your looking at the lightly textured, sprayed matte finish from like 2" away. It's normal and those aren't blemishes. There's a reason why the matte finish is not perfectly smooth in your photos.....it's not suppose to be. If the spray was perfectly smooth on a mirror finish waveguide, it would reflect too much light. I have other waveguides from the same manufacturer with a perfectly smooth surface painted "matte" and they reflect light much more......which is not what people wanted. That's not tape residue. Tape doesn't touch any part of the waveguide during manufacturing or when I wrap them up. If you are worried about the finish being perfectly smooth, you should go with gloss, which was the original design.


The glossy model is the plastic itself giving the shiny mirror finish with no paint. The mold cost a decent amount more to be made smooth enough to get a gloss finish (it takes a LOT more time than a textured finish). It's also a different type of plastic that injects smoother to get it to look so slick. But then people later said they wanted a matte finish option. Well, in order to get a smooth matte finish it's almost always painted, and always painted when you use a mold made for a mirror smooth surface. If not, even cheap dull plastic pushed into an expensive mirror smooth injection mold will have a good shine to it.....which some people didn't want. So a very very light textured matte is the way it's done. I hope I explained that okay. It makes sense when you think about how it all works.


As for the part inside the throat, that was mentioned earlier. Every waveguide (or anything made from plastic) has to have tabs or a thin layer of plastic where the screw holes are or any type of hole inside the mold. That's just the way injection molds or blow molds work. Ever seen the little piece of plastic that gets popped out of the handle on a milk jug if it's not caught from the manufacturer? Same thing. But the thicker the material, the more pressure is used to squeeze the plastic into the mold......so the tabs must be thicker. Once the part is taken from the mold, they remove the thin pieces of plastic or tabs, or flash left over. Most waveguides (even from JBL) look really bad. It's been talked about on many forums over the years. I should get some photos of the different models I have. Normally the manufacturer will use a razor blade, by hand, to slice away the stuff that's around the throat, leaving a very badly shaped circle. Anyone that has worked with plastic waveguides has seen it.

I specifically made sure this did not happen as bad, so the manufacture made small tabs on the gloss prototypes and you really can't even see where the tabs were. They look excellent. Those use a different plastic and the tabs pop out easier. But the matte uses a slightly harder plastic so when the tabs are popped out, they leave extra plastic that the manufacturer must sand down if needed. You can see this on all waveguides from all manufacturers. Trust me, I have at least 75 different models. That's simply the injection mold process.


It was discussed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here/4140#post_22125931

As mentioned there, most people probably wouldn't want me sanding down things that don't need worked on. If they decide to do it, they can, but it's not necessary at all.

Being nearly untouched, these tabs are really good for a waveguide, and could possibly be bragged about. I specifically asked for a better method to be used, and it worked good. I should get some photos of other brands so people that don't use waveguides too often can see how much nicer these actually are. Having said that, the gloss model is even better. Neither will make a difference at all though. I can assure you these have been scrutinized over and over, tested many times and sent to people around the country to look them over.
Edited by Erich H - 6/16/12 at 10:39pm

Thanks for the explanation, really appreciate it.

No problem, let's just hope others read the explanation so they know too. The only thing that's funky about your picture is that your angle makes the circle look strange. Hopefully you can let people know that it's just the camera angle and the circular part is indeed circular.

The only reason you see tabbed area is because a very little bit of the matte texture is removed and there's light coming from behind the flange, making it noticeable in your close up photo. Obviously that's not how it will be in the speaker. Mount your driver or hold it up to the back flange so the gasket is where it should be.........and you'll no longer see anything. Please report back sir.


I should probably get photos showing the throats of other brands so people can see that the SEOS models really are good. If you rub your finger where the tab was, it's pretty darn smooth. And even though your photo is zoomed in by a large amount, it still looks good where any light sanding was done, showing only a slight change in plastic color. And that area is extremely small. Zoomed in like that without the CD mounted puts it out of proportion a little bit. But I understand 100%, because I did the same thing when I got my first waveguides.
Edited by Erich H - 6/16/12 at 11:13pm

I was looking at the waveguides in sunlight very closely. Once the driver is mounted and in normal lighting conditions, its hard to see these things. The circle is perfectly round and fits the CD very nicely.

Yeah, I've got the CD mounted on mine and the only imperfection I can see is all the sawdust motes it picked up when I made the mistake of setting it down in the shop!

At the end of the day, when you mount the CD to the waveguide, it is good procedure to take some modeling clay and perfectly smooth out the transition from the inner part of the CD throat to the transition part of the waveguide resulting in a perfect transition. Of course you need to remove the bug screen to do this properly, so the foam insert is a good thing to keep bugs out. All this came from Dr. Geddes. So in the end little tiny imperfections in the throat wouldn't matter at all.

Ahhhh yes, here come the order changes from matte to gloss.

Anyone that has contacted me about changing from matte to gloss, I will do my best to change your order. If one order slips by, just let me know. I check each order, then go through all the emails to make sure you haven't sent a different request or changed the number of waveguides, compression drivers, etc. I have about 400 emails and more come each day.......seriously.

Guys, both the matte finish or the gloss finish are very good. Compared to any other waveguide, these are top of the line and extra care was taken around the throat. The manufacturer that made these also makes horns and waveguides for a very well known expensive company in another country. A couple forum members already know this. The gloss uses a slightly more expensive plastic to get the shine, but the matte finish gets sprayed after it's made, so the price on both is pretty much the same. The photo showing the lightly textured matte finish above is literally from 1" away. The tab at the base of the throat was purposely made to be as small as possible and I specifically asked them to barely touch them up so I could check each one better for accuracy. Some companies will literally use a 1" circular bit and just drill them out unevenly all around, or use a razor blade and cut them by hand. I didn't want someone doing that.

If you really want matte finish, these are good. If you really want gloss finish, they're good too.


Other thoughts on the whole process: During injection molding they use 200 - 500 tons of pressure to push heated softened plastic into the clam shell mold. As the plastic is pushed around screw holes or throat holes, it flows around those holes on each side like water would flow around an object, and converges back on the opposite side of the object. Where they meet will be a line because it's meeting back as one flow. On cheaper dull plastic, the line is barely noticeable at all, especially when the dull plastic is sprayed. On gloss, due to it's shine, you can see how the plastic flows around screw holes and meets. It's not weaker at that point or anything like that, it's just where the plastic meets as it flows. My gloss 18-Sound waveguides look the same.....

When I first got the samples I scrutinized them over and over, tested them, jumped on them, smashed them with sledge hammers, etc. I showed them to many different people, some experts in plastics. I then looked at virtually every other waveguide that was either gloss, painted, or textured. They're all made the same way, with the same lines, textures, or whatever. You have no worries here.


I also double check and drill out the screw holes on the rear flange for the DE-250 or their similar counterparts to mount to. The SEOS-12 was made to fit virtually every 2 bolt, 3 bolt 1" compression driver model. Some CD's have slightly smaller screws, so I opted to have the plastic manufacturer make smaller holes made in the rear flange so they could be made bigger if needed. That's better than trying to make a bigger hole......small again. So when someone orders the waveguide and the CD's, I take my 5/16" drill bit and zip it through the holes on the back to make sure the end user is good to go.
Edited by Erich H - 6/17/12 at 8:38am

Is there any reason to choose DE250 over DNA360 driver for HT applications?

Just ordered the DNA-360s and chose the MATTE finish. Can not wait to get these, the polks they are going to replace both have a blown woofer. Now all I need is a design to choose

My perspective on the SEOS12 is that they are better than what they replace. That is why I am getting them.

I did some work on their predecessors. I'll do some work on the SEOS. No big deal.

The decision for matte or gloss is in "style points" territory. I chose matte so they would "disappear" into the room. The finish won't affect the sound one iota.

I should also note that the 2 speaker designers that I haven't mentioned yet will be working with the more expensive speaker components. This will round out the mid priced and upper priced projects.

I'm hoping for 1 more speaker designer to throw a design in as well. I haven't heard from him in a little while, but will fire off an email today.

Of course, as these get into the hands of other designers, there will be many more designs popping up.

I'm going to get some help on a really inexpensive model I plan to get moving. Basically driving Mr. Bwaslo crazy with questions. Pricing on these will easily allow anyone to join the fun, but it's going to be over a month away on those due to component manufacturing time which is out of my control.

Now that these are here and able to be sent to designers, exciting things will be coming faster.

Erich,

are the kits you are working on suitable for people without extensive DIY experience? Would they include preassembled crossovers and detailed enclosure plans?

I apologize if this was asked and answered before.

Thank you

Thanks for the pictures. I must say im glad to be armed with this information. Ive never purchased waveguides before and the scrape marks would have alarmed me too. Having said, im sticking with matte, its not an option for me to have those mirror finish waveguides behind the screen.

If the matte finish is just spray paint, you just sand and repaint right? What about painting the glossy ones? If your after 2" aesthetics might be the way to go?

Hey Erich,

I ordered 3 SEOS 12/DNA 360 combos and am waiting "patiently" for some mystery designers plans, but I'm now wondering how much the wait will be worth it versus just running with BWaslow's Deltalite 2512 design. Don't get me wrong. I have the most respect for BWaslow and his designs, but was thinking the future plans may be more "paint by numbers" for us noobs. Is my thinking wrong?

From what I've read on BWaslow's 2512 plan it looks great for me (LCR HT build). My hesitancy is that this is my first build, and i was hoping for more detailed plans (cab dimensions, baffle layout, etc.). Are your future plans going to have that? If not, with some help, I'm happy to be a guinea pig and share my build specs/steps with all and get going ASAP.

Thanks
Edited by Java - 9/3/12 at 8:18am

Yes, there is work being done to get completed crossovers and of course easy to assemble flat pack kits.

As mentioned earlier, if any of these designs really stand out, I could try to get some nice completed enclosures made, then set up some type of donation for the designer. Or clearly state what size donation was added to the price of each speaker sold.

There was also talk on another forum that I should just turn this into a small business so that the designers names could then get advertised more, which would bring in more donations for those individual designers. Obviously this would also allow for some very interesting products and things would move much faster, but I haven't made that decision yet.

I haven't had much of a problem keeping up with this right now in my spare time. No doubt this SEOS project coming in the week after I posted the subwoofer flat packs will likely make some people a little upset that their flat packs didn't get shipped nearly as fast as before. The thought of hiring part time help and ramping this up has been on my mind more and more as I try to keep up. Who knows.

When I built my 4Pi speakers that were intended to sit behind my SMX screen I needed to be sure that they wouldn't reflect light back to the screen so I took the stock Eminence horn, Wiped it with acetone and sprayed it with ultra flat spray paint. The acetone cut the shine but also discolored the surface. After painting that wasn't a problem.



I also had to paint the edges of the JBL woofers which were nice and shiny




Basic black speaker porn:



If I hadn't already built these I would be all over this project.

I think the advantage to being the GP is you get to decide what style or look you want as long as you stick with the original baffle width and driver spacing. Curved sides or standard money coffin? Max size for bass extension or smaller to fit your room better?

Whatever box someone else designs you will probably want to change something about it anyway.

Please read the explanation I posted. They aren't scrape marks.

Yes, if you plan on looking at your waveguides from 1"-2" away, get the gloss finish as it was originally designed. A sprayed on matte finish should not be 100% mirror smooth......the smoother it is, the more light it will reflect, which then defeats the purpose for why everyone wanted the matte finish.

Yes, you can paint the gloss finish yourself if you wanted. But if you want a 100% smooth sprayed surface, it's just as hard as painting anything else. Plan on sanding, spraying, sanding, buffing, wet sanding, painting, buffing, etc, etc, etc. That's what makes plastic so nice because you can get the smooth finished surface by using plastic designed for the proper application. People initially wanted a mirror smooth surface. It cost more for the mold to get that surface.

If everyone wanted a matte finish with plastic, the manufacturer would carve texture into the aluminum mold, use a cheaper dull plastic, then probably spray that as well. The texture from the mold itself would blend with the way the spray was done. But that would mean carving a different mold. No problem if we can gather up $10's of thousands of dollars.

It's A LOT easier to go from a gloss to matte finish, than going from textured plastic to a gloss finish. So this is how it has to be done.......and they look good.

I am totally sold. Thank you for all the hard work!

I for one would prefer this was run as a business. i suspect at the end it would be better for everybody involved
Edited by zheka - 6/17/12 at 12:27pm

If they're behind the screen, why bother?

I personally wouldnt, that comment was for anyone who might find minor imperfections objectionable.

If mine were going to be seen id have gotten the gloss cuz "theyre dead seeeeeexy!"

I personally wouldnt, that comment was for anyone who might find minor imperfections objectionable.

If mine were going to be seen id have gotten the gloss cuz "theyre dead seeeeeexy!"

Between the DE250 and DNA360, I wouldn't hesitate ordering the DNA360's personally. The fr is practically identical, yet the 360 has slightly more extension.

-Nate

I think Eric is doing a great job, you start adding overhead and the prices go up.

We all know what happened to SMX screens when Rubin turned it into a business. He stopped supporting the DIY crowd and prices doubled as he added a distrubuter network. Many e-mails now go unanswered. Great Product, I have one.