Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 145

He's fast!

Erich,

If you decide to do a TD12M design. I can send you one that I have. The cabs for mine probably will not be done for about two months. I would just need it back sometime in August.

Let me know. t's the least I could do...... after all you have done for DIY community.

Is this for real?

apparently it is Paul Carmody's website. wow.

Hi Java,
It's the 12a, not the pro. Though if it were me, I'd use the Designer 12, but you maybe play louder than I do. The designs I did are for woofer and waveguide on the same mounting plane, either both front.mounted or.both recessed the same amount. If you change that, the crossover will need redoing.


Porting is pretty safe to do, just use a good modeler (such as WinISD) , and if possible have away to check your tuning such as a woofer tester or measuring setup.

Baffle try to keep around 15 inches wide, waveguide above woofer, waveguide horizontal and as close to woofer as you can. Arrange for waveguide to be at ear level and for the speakers to be toed-in considerably.

If you.can have big roundovers on the baffle and make sure the box is well braced (i like window braces, but not everyone agrees).


And - Don't.try to type long replies on a smartphone's keyboard, it.will drive you nuts!

Yes, but now no...

From his blog

"...The other major update is that my "free crossover design" service is currently on hiatus..."

seen here
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/updates

Amen, 99.9% of my posts are from my Galaxy S2. Nuts it's an understatement! Great response to good questions btw.

I've been using winisd to help calculate port length and keeping port resonance inside the passband. Is there a rule of thumb I should follow as far as what frequency I should target within a given enclosure size and tuning? Thanks!

-Nate
Edited by robotbunny - 6/21/12 at 8:59pm

I know Paul is very busy on a few other projects right now. He also just finished up a design that fits in some flat packs I had cut a couple months ago. Those will be listed soon.


Once things slow down for him, I'll see if he wants to try his hand at a smaller waveguide or maybe something around the SEOS-12.

Glad you liked the matte finish model.


What's the difference between the TD12's? I thought Jeff told me he liked the TD12H, but maybe that was a misprint. Is there such a creature?


I still haven't heard from A&E yet, but it's only been a couple days. I know I've got so many emails that it's going to take me a long time to catch up. So they could be in the same situation.

All right, I won't bug him then. I suspect 2226H/SEOS-12 may not be his cup of tea any way.

TD12S or TD12M were the ones people were buying

TD12M = more efficient

TD12S = wayne 3pi lower efficiency more bass 2 channel style

Oh yeah and who knows what people are ordering when it comes to impedance.

If you are going to do it active or have EQ, you can do 6th order ported in 60L. Q=2 HPF at 40hz. 2226 6th FR.gif 25k .gif file

2226 6th X.gif 21k .gif file

The differences between the TD12M and others are discussed here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/142558-acoustic-elegance-td12-version.html#post1806759

The differences between the H, X, and S are i believe mostly just in the t/s parameters rather than higher up in frequency. The only real effect this would have on the crossover would be the amount of tweeter padding necessary.
Edited by Eternal Velocity - 6/22/12 at 12:40am

I just read through a big thread on the AE forum. Maybe it isn't such a good idea to base a design on the AE woofer. I did not know just how bad it has been over there. Even after the group buy is completed, it seems just too unpredictable to count on getting these drivers on a regular basis.

Luckily I have 2 already. I need one more for the center channel. Hopefully, I will be able to get one. I am not holding my breath tho.

It really is a shame as i have not heard anything but praise for their product lines. I had my heart set on couple of AV15s also. Doesn't look like that is going to be a possibility either.

Is far as I know you didn't have an opportunity to compare Hi and Lo efficiency versions side by side. My main concern is about Designer version is NOT low efficiency and NOT max output.
It's quite the opposite !
My listening levels are usually extremly low. I often enjoy late night sessions when my better half is already sleeping in the other room.
High QMS, hard hung drivers are good at this. They reveal details even when listened quietly. What about Designer 12's ?
Have you ever compared your projects this way ?
Edited by fakamada - 6/22/12 at 5:41am

Hopefully he is way too busy building and shipping drivers!

I will write a little more in reply when I get more of a chance. This should hopefully give you an idea of where things will be at though with production of woofers going forward.

http://aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2963

John

Thanks much the reply. Sorry for giving you mobile typing cramps.

Great news on the 12a. On 12a versus Designer 12, I definitely noticed your like of the Designer 12. How much of that may have been driven by the "test mule" sealed cab? If I'm going a larger ported cab, with that change the dynamics?

Hard to say if I listen louder. Very subjective, but I do like to crank it for movies. The 12a seems so more efficient than the Designer 12. 12a SPL: 98.3 dB 1W/1m vs Designer 12 SPL: 90.4 dB 2.83V/1m (couldn't find a 1w reading). I realize there are many other factors than just sensitivity and many that aren't in specs. The price is right between the 12a and Designer 12. In a larger ported cab, what do you think the trade offs would be?

Great news on even plane for the drivers. Makes it much easier. I'll front mount the drivers, so no need for round overs.

On the ear level placement, per below (as reference, screen is 126"), I have a constraint on center speaker, but can get the LR up higher via stands. My design goal is to try to get the speakers to be 30" tall. Also, for toe-in, I was planning on "corner loading" them per your toe-in guide. I have the room. On that note, your toe-in guide was for LR vs LCR. Any impact of a center channel? I would think not, but worth asking.

Thanks, again!


Edited by Java - 6/22/12 at 1:02pm

Well, yeah, as mentioned above I didn't exactly do a side-by-side comparison. So a huge grain of salt should be taken with my opinions (or anyone's for that matter). The biggest "data" point is that when I made the version using the Designer, I ended up listening for quite a long time, in mono!, after getting the voicing in, while with the pro woofers I didn't have such a temptation (they sounded very good, but not a 'wow'). Again, could have been bass, could have been looks (the Eminence pro woofers are ugly suckers), could have been my mood that night. If you're coming to MWAF next month, I'll have the Designer 12 versions there.

If you are going with subs (use more than one!), you'll have an easier time with sealed mains or if the port tuning is way below where you'll be highpassing the mains (so the port mostly just stiffening driver motion rather than generating lots of output). Sealed subs (or ported subs with different port tuning) can be hard to match up with ported speakers if they both output in the same low bass range.

I think above ear level is ok, mostly I think you want to keep speakers well above knee-level. The waveguide speakers are designed to control output coverage, not a lot of sense in doing that and then just directing their output directly into furniture.

BTW, I never advocated "corner loading" of the speakers in that toe-in guide. I keep my speakers away from the corners (about 3' or so on the side near a corner) but that's because of seat placement probably most likely. Corner placement can work I think (Wayne Parham is big on it) but you'll need to EQ probably if you do. Last time I had speakers in corners, they were K-horns which honked horribly and finally got to me and put me off horn speakers for more than 25 years!
Edited by bwaslo - 6/22/12 at 8:27am

 

 

He means roundovers on the sides of the baffles, mostly L and R sides but T and B help with diffraction on that axis too.....

I meant "not to the side of" rather than strictly below. Above would be ok, too.

Sure, if you have EQ, the world opens up.

With 2226's I'd go sealed and small, unless you really need max extension and/or output.

I'm torn. I hear you on the "Wow Factor", but I'm concerned about the sensitivity. A good 8db difference.

On the looks, I'm actually going for a flat black look (matte SEOS) to reduce glare from front projector, so the glossy finish of the designer 12's is a bit of a concern. Ugly may be better.

On MWAF visit, I'd love to take a listen, but that a bit of a hike for me (ATL) and I was hoping to have them done by then (birthday present to self).

What are your thoughts on the below opinion on the 12a?


Hmm. Now my "port fears" have kicked in again. Would it be safest to go sealed mains and subs? I know with HT setups are the way to go, but plowing through speaker and sub DIY threads, the port config (real life vs designed) seem to be an issue.

Thank you for your patience with my noob questions.

It would be great if we can get a definite idea for at least 2 woofers and 2-4 box sizes (sealed and ported for each woofer?) by the end of the week. Can we try to narrow it down? I don't care if we look at 3 more woofers besides what Bwaslo has already worked with. I also don't mind if we do 2 higher dollar models and 1 cheaper model, or whatever. Once narrowed down, I can build a box or two and send them to the designers. Time's a wastin'.

QSC used the Eminence Beta in a theater surround speaker for many years. That's like a $70 woofer, matched with the $55 DNA-350 might not be a bad idea.


Anyone that thinks they can pull together a decent speaker design, please contact me and I will get you parts and enclosures very fast.


But for now, I'm hoping we can focus on woofer brands and model numbers to get things rolling.
Edited by Erich H - 6/22/12 at 7:24pm

If you send me a D350 I'll buy an Eminence Delta or Alpha 12A and build a box and design something. I already have the SEOS12. That would be pretty budget friendly. Once I'm done I can send back the 350. Unless you'd rather I push along the smaller stuff I've already started or if a budget build like that would unpopular.

Heck, If someone in Canada has some drivers, send 'em here and I'll whip something up. As long as I can post it for everyone.

Hey Erich -

Just wanted to say my gloss waveguides arrived today in perfect condition. You were not kidding, these are very high quality. Thank you!

If there is anyone on the fence about purchasing these, the quality is second to none. Just look at the polar response and the price and place your order!

-Nate

JBL 2206H 12 inch woofer. The JBL isn't cheap at just under $300 new or ~$125-$200 used. But it is readily available to ship without wait time unlike the AE woofers, group buy or otherwise.

As for box size for its design, that was previously mentioned.... 2 cubic foot net after bracing, etc. Run the JBL vented, but leave the port hole uncut and let folks do that themselve and then you can use it for sealed or vented depending on your choice since port diameter is such a variable. The 2 cubic foot box size can also work for several other woofers, including designs already completed. I know the Eminence 2512 will work in that box size sealed but it is a bit small for ideal vented box alignment. Doesn't the Designer 12 like 2 cubic feet as well based on comments from Bwaslo? I do know the 2 cubic foot works with AE TD12X run sealed and sounds pretty decent that way if not the ultimate bass extension and the X version is more ideally suited for vented alignments.

That takes care of expensive 12 incher.

Again, I think there are a lot of folks about to come into some AE TD15M 15 inch woofers and there are already folks with JBL 2226H 15 inch woofers. The AE woofer is going to be a bit more readily available now that the china steel is here and the JBLs are very readily available new or used. Someone else can debate the merits of various box sizes with those woofers. My preference is for alignments and sizes that maximize low end extension so they can be run without penalty without subs if the user so chooses to do so for music listening. Not everyone wants to have 4 large subwoofers, parametric EQ box and the amp channels to run it. They have much more simple systems and/or can't play full range bass all the time with sleeping infants or neighbors that will get them evicted or fined with noise ordinances

Speaking of infants, there goes the crying on the baby monitor.... so much for a long nighttime stretch....

I'd like to see a design with the 2226H, hoping that there is a straightforward adaptation of that design to the 2226Js that I'm buying - is that realistic, or would it likely need a completely different crossover?

I am interested in 2226H design too.

My personal preference would be for "small and sealed" idea noah suggested earlier.

Erich,

Matte finish wave guide is sexy. Just got mine in this morning. It's awesome looking and very smooth. I like the look much more than my klipsch horns.

Cheers!

Peter