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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 173

post #5161 of 7512
9/3/12 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well my next one (after the alpha 8a which is half done) was going to be the delta 10a with either the 350 or 360. So if someone wanted one or the other I'm open to it. I just have fun doing it biggrin.gif
One thing to remember when comparing to the designer 10 is the delta doesn't get very low. Having said that I've been listening to it without issue in a sealed ~30L. And in a surround application this is likely even more tolerable.

Thank, Tuxedocivic

I'll be crossing these at 80hz and these will have surround duty so probably won't be pounded with bass.

Thoughts on putting this in Erich's .75 cft (21 L) ported box: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seos-flat-packs/75-seos-flat-pack.html? I'm itching to do a compare/contrast of his kits versus my "saw dust project".

Yes, if you could do a design with the DNA-350, that would be great.

Erich,

Weigh in if you see a better approach. Will this be a future kit? If so, I'm happy to build the instructions/FAQ's. A question that may have been asked before, but will the kits include PCB or just components and layout instructions. If no PCB, I can put together a board layout for the kit (with some expert supervision, of course).

By the way, if I follow right, the Delta 10A is a matt finish. So, my pretty glossy guides may need to be returns for the boring matt ones. wink.gif

Thanks
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post #5162 of 7512
9/3/12 at 7:46am
Everything Tuxedocivic is working on will be available as kits. He offered to help out with some of the smaller designs, so I was able to ship him the needed parts a little while ago.


The difference between the DNA-350 and DNA-360 is mostly on the lower end. The 350 doesn't go as low. If the speaker is crossed over around 1250hz+, I don't think you would be able to hear any difference at all. Basically you could say both models are nearly the same and could be switched out with the DE250 as well.


The crossover boards were ordered a little while ago. They were designed by Bwalso to work with a wide variety of these speaker kits. They should be arriving very soon. But the first order is a trial order of only 100. Actually, I think it was 50 for the woofer and 50 for the compression driver. Getting one for each driver keeps the size smaller so they can fit easier into well braced boxes.


As for the glossy and matte finish to match with the woofer. You can switch them out with me if you want. No big deal. Same with the CD's if you need something different. A black matte spray paint could be applied about 12" away from the waveguide would look pretty good though. I think another forum member mentioned you could wipe it down with something prior to painting. Maybe he used alcohol to remove fingerprints prior to spraying. I should experiment with that this week.
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post #5163 of 7512
9/3/12 at 9:43am
If you still need the phase plug, I have an extra td12x sitting here in a box. I could unscrew the phase plug (assuming john does not loctite or otherwise glue it down on orders other than the group buy) or I could ship bwaslo the whole woofer. I was going to do that once upon a time anyways before I got distracted with other things. Let me know via PM or email Erich or bull and I will get it on its way.........
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post #5164 of 7512
9/3/12 at 12:03pm
Would it be smart to order the waveguide and cd now, or wait for the entire kit of the design I choose to go with to become available?
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post #5165 of 7512
9/3/12 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Those look sweet raja - what design are you planning for them?

I'm still in the planing stage for for a design. I do plan to have separate bass bins for the TD15's. Initially I envisioned sealed boxes but now I'm considering larger boxes with ports that have the option of being sealed and designing the interior so that I can modify the volume with bricks or whatever. I'd like it if I could get the woofers down to ~35hz or lower. They then would be in subwoofer range thereby fit into a distributed sub plan in conjunction with my present subs.

The waveguides will have separate boxes open in the rear. By having separate boxes, I'll have the flexibility to experiment with other waveguides in the future. It'll also make it easier to move the speakers here and there.smile.gif I'll use an active crossover which fits in perfectly with with the flexibility concept.

I agree with Erich, the photos don't do justice to the physical size and heft of the BA's. They're very impressive.eek.gif
A beryllium diaphragm would be the cat's meow.


Edited by rajacat - 9/3/12 at 12:51pm
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post #5166 of 7512
9/3/12 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post

Would it be smart to order the waveguide and cd now, or wait for the entire kit of the design I choose to go with to become available?

The entire kits will be shipped in different boxes anyway due to the weight. So ordering now will ensure that you get first dibs of the compression drivers you want. As mentioned earlier, due to cost, I have to wait until I get down to about 40 drivers before I order more. So if there are only 40 drivers to hold us over for a month or so, people could be waiting.
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post #5167 of 7512
9/3/12 at 6:41pm
For those interested in another possible surround application, i've got two of the Celestion TF08 18 8" woofers coming. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-2060
Unibox shows nice extension to 60hz or so in a 1cuft ported box. I'll try the bottom end first to see if that;s truly the case. If Celestion's measurements are to be believed, this woofer is extremely smooth to 2khz and would take very little XO work to match up with the SEOS 8.
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post #5168 of 7512
9/3/12 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

For those interested in another possible surround application, i've got two of the Celestion TF08 18 8" woofers coming. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=294-2060
Unibox shows nice extension to 60hz or so in a 1cuft ported box. I'll try the bottom end first to see if that;s truly the case. If Celestion's measurements are to be believed, this woofer is extremely smooth to 2khz and would take very little XO work to match up with the SEOS 8.

Mayhem, the work is already finished if you are ok with using the DW-774S horn and DNA-150 CD.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=53.0
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post #5169 of 7512
9/3/12 at 7:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The entire kits will be shipped in different boxes anyway due to the weight. So ordering now will ensure that you get first dibs of the compression drivers you want. As mentioned earlier, due to cost, I have to wait until I get down to about 40 drivers before I order more. So if there are only 40 drivers to hold us over for a month or so, people could be waiting.

Does that mean, I should go ahead and get mine now?
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post #5170 of 7512
9/4/12 at 6:00pm
Glad someone else saw the value in the Celestion woofer for surround duty. Didn't realize this already existed. Why no SEOS 8 in this one? The highish XO point could certainly benefit from the closer C to C spacing an SEOS would provide.
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post #5171 of 7512
9/4/12 at 6:50pm
I did not think the extra $86.75 per speaker for a fiberglass SEOS 8 was worth it, that almost doubles the cost. I'll wait until less expensive alternatives are available.
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post #5172 of 7512
9/4/12 at 6:54pm
A 'solid surface' seos8 should be cheaper I'd think. Probably better, too. That stuff is about as inert as it gets.
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post #5173 of 7512
9/5/12 at 3:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

A 'solid surface' seos8 should be cheaper I'd think. Probably better, too. That stuff is about as inert as it gets.

Solid surface material would work well, except I don't think you can buy the chemicals to make it. Means you would probably have to laminate a block up and have a CNC to make it. Not cost effective. You might as well make them out of resin or plastic.
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post #5174 of 7512
9/5/12 at 4:54am
the 'concrete' waveguides from Poland are solid surface. Erich can order them.
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post #5175 of 7512
9/5/12 at 8:22am
About the poured (concrete, solid surface) seos waveguides, is there an mdf mounting ring on the back like the fiberglass models and is the weight a factor for mounting and recessing them? What's the best installation method with these? Do they come painted and if not, just prime and paint?

Erich, I'm interested in the 10" poured seos (~$40 each?) and I'd like to get an order in before the next pallet leaves.
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post #5176 of 7512
9/5/12 at 2:28pm
The mounting ring on these appears to be poured with the rest. Drilling the mounting holes is a bit of a chore, not terrible but more work (and worse on drill bits) than drilling through MDF. The material of the whole structure is a dense poured composite of apparently ceramic powder and plastic resin (smells like fiberglass when drilled) don't know what else is in it. It is heavy, though. Quite strong, not likely to have any strength issues I wouldn't think. Erich and I had to hit it pretty hard quite a few times with a hammer to break a poured SEOS10's mouth last year.

Not painted (I don't think?) but have a very nice poured finish, painting not really necessary unless you want to change colors of it. Erich could probably tell us whether it was painted (or maybe gel coated?). It would be neat to have a whole cabinet made with it, but the shipping cost of that would be outrageous.
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post #5177 of 7512
9/5/12 at 2:59pm
Dang, Erich's bringing in so many goodies my head keeps spinning. Now I'm dreaming about SEOS 10s and 8s. I think I have enough to play with eek.gif
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post #5178 of 7512
9/5/12 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Dang, Erich's bringing in so many goodies my head keeps spinning. Now I'm dreaming about SEOS 10s and 8s. I think I have enough to play with eek.gif

Stay on target. Stay on target... wink.gif

Edited by Java - 9/5/12 at 3:24pm
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post #5179 of 7512
9/5/12 at 4:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Stay on target. Stay on target... wink.gif

Ha ha ha!
Best quote!

So many projects...Oh yeah, Stay On Target...
Oh man, can I relate to that.
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post #5180 of 7512
9/5/12 at 4:59pm
John is going to send bwaslo a phase plug. We exchanged emails this afternoon.
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post #5181 of 7512
9/5/12 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

Here's my long awaited TD15M's that will be making sweet music with the BA's via an active crossover.

Thanks Erich!

I don't see a vent in the back of the magnet; what's the path for the air in the VC cavity?

Does it vent forward around the phase plug?

That would be great for cooling but could let dust in.
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post #5182 of 7512
9/5/12 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajacat View Post

Here's my long awaited TD15M's that will be making sweet music with the BA's via an active crossover.

Thanks Erich!

I don't see a vent in the back of the magnet; what's the path for the air in the VC cavity?

Does it vent forward around the phase plug?

That would be great for cooling but could let dust in.

It's the same as most any other driver with a metal phase plug fixed to the pole. Without a dust cap there is no trapped air space to vent. The under-spider area is already vented through the basket. This is actually a notable part of what helps with the higher frequency operation/extension as there is one less chamber to relief pressure from and one less piece connected to the cone body form another resonance.
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post #5183 of 7512
9/5/12 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

John is going to send bwaslo a phase plug. We exchanged emails this afternoon.

Nice work!
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post #5184 of 7512
9/5/12 at 7:11pm
Thanks, Mark.

Hmm, that means the main reason I chose the 2206H over the TD12M (besides availability), it's greater depth, is mostly neutralized; I wouldn't need to leave any clearance behind the magnet for the VC vents.

Anyone want to trade 3 TD12M's for 3 2206H's + $? One is freshly re-coned w/OEM JBL, the others are in XLNT condition.
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post #5185 of 7512
9/6/12 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Awesome.
Looking forward to seeing the TD12M design.

Well, I am in. I have ordered the seos12. The TD12M woofer has my attention. I am very interested in seeing a design implemented. Personally I would prefer a sealed design. Let's keep rallying to get these designs available.
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post #5186 of 7512
9/6/12 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I don't see a vent in the back of the magnet; what's the path for the air in the VC cavity?
Does it vent forward around the phase plug?
That would be great for cooling but could let dust in.

Yes as Mark already confirmed, air is exchanged out of the front. This is one of the benefits of the TD design. In a typical woofer, the idea is to vent the heat out the back. In reality, because you have an oscillating air flow in and out, very little heat actually gets removed from the area under the dustcap through this method. Typically the motor simply heats up and heat is dissipated into the enclosure. I have measured ambient air temperature as high as 175F inside a 50L sealed enclosure in the past. This increase in ambient air temperature isn't good for the woofer and long term power compression.

In the case of the TD woofers, heat is pulled from the windings into the aluminum former with 17sq inches of internal surface area in the TD coils. This aluminum former is in very close proximity to 25sq inches of copper sleeve on the pole. This is a massive amount of heatsinking area and the thermal properties of the copper allow it to absorb heat very quickly. The heat is then pulled from the copper directly into the solid 2" diameter steel pole which has a very high thermal reserve. The phase plug then pulls the heat from the pole and exchanges it to the outside world where there is again a very large heatsinking area in effect. The combination of convection and the air movement created by the cone help to dissipate the heat into the outside world. As long as there is enough temperature differential along the exchange path, heat will continue to flow this way. It is one of the reasons the 2" coil TD woofers can handle as much or more power than most 3" coils in pro audio drivers. There is still some heat that will be dissipated off the outside of the VC as well and adequate venting under the spider also helps to pull some heat from the VC.

John
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post #5187 of 7512
9/6/12 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Yes as Mark already confirmed, air is exchanged out of the front. This is one of the benefits of the TD design. In a typical woofer, the idea is to vent the heat out the back. In reality, because you have an oscillating air flow in and out, very little heat actually gets removed from the area under the dustcap through this method. Typically the motor simply heats up and heat is dissipated into the enclosure. I have measured ambient air temperature as high as 175F inside a 50L sealed enclosure in the past. This increase in ambient air temperature isn't good for the woofer and long term power compression.
In the case of the TD woofers, heat is pulled from the windings into the aluminum former with 17sq inches of internal surface area in the TD coils. This aluminum former is in very close proximity to 25sq inches of copper sleeve on the pole. This is a massive amount of heatsinking area and the thermal properties of the copper allow it to absorb heat very quickly. The heat is then pulled from the copper directly into the solid 2" diameter steel pole which has a very high thermal reserve. The phase plug then pulls the heat from the pole and exchanges it to the outside world where there is again a very large heatsinking area in effect. The combination of convection and the air movement created by the cone help to dissipate the heat into the outside world. As long as there is enough temperature differential along the exchange path, heat will continue to flow this way. It is one of the reasons the 2" coil TD woofers can handle as much or more power than most 3" coils in pro audio drivers. There is still some heat that will be dissipated off the outside of the VC as well and adequate venting under the spider also helps to pull some heat from the VC.
John

John...

Did I make a stupid move going for the apollo upgrade, when I pretty much listen at 75-80db?? eek.gif
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post #5188 of 7512
9/6/12 at 1:05pm
Awesome, John. biggrin.gif That's amazing that enclosure got so hot. How quickly did the air temp rise to get to 175F and was that indoors or out in the sun? Either way, that's impressive heat buildup.

Jon_B, ymmv, but not sure how well a TD12M would do in a sealed enclosure. At 1ft^3, the F3 is ~115Hz and be over 6dB down at 80Hz. If you're looking at compact, the smallest front ported enclosure (F3@~80Hz) is 14.5W x 15.5H x 12.75D plus your waveguide section makes it 24.25"H.

Here's the one I cut this past weekend for testing. It's a 26" tall blank baffle from Erich, I cut the woofer and port. Just need to cut a couple inches off the bottom to adjust the height.
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post #5189 of 7512
9/6/12 at 5:31pm
Robot bunny, did you do all the cuts yourself? Or did you just cut the port? At any rate that looks good. A compact enclosure is not a requirement for me. I am a total noob to DIY speaker building (minus my dabbling in car subwoofer enclosure building back in high school). If the consensus is that I am not able to do a sealed enclosure without it being down too much at 80hz, I'll have to go with a ported design. I am fine with it being down a little at 80hz (as I am using a sub) but obviously over 6db is pretty significant.
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post #5190 of 7512
9/6/12 at 9:30pm
Thanks Jon_B. Yes, I did the cutouts for the woofer and port. The blank baffles from diy sound group just have the cutouts for the seos12 waveguide, which really saves some time building. I used a Jasper 200 for the woofer and made a router template for the port. The baffle pictured is minus the rear baffle, it's a double baffle @ 1.5". Once I got the front baffle finished I used it as a template for the secondary.

These TD series woofers (td12m and td10m) really seem to simulate better in ported enclosures, in as far as deriving a suitable f3 point and tuning frequency for the system I'm trying to achieve. I'm very new to this too, but I'm learning how there will always be tradeoffs. Depending on your requirements, enclosure size, tuning, placement, etc., should be considered as it will make it easier to decide what drivers and design to go with. For me, a main with low extension wasn't a priority and it was size, room, and placement that dictated the design. I had to figure that out first, then I chose the driver, simulated it, and ordered them.

The enclosure I'm building is tuned to 50Hz, 3dB down at 80Hz. It's 14.5 x 13.5 x 24.25 total size with a 1 x 12 x 10 front port. The td12m is in 1 cu.ft. high passed around 40Hz. It should be pretty versatile and mate well to the co-located sealed subs I'm using now. If I ever decide to go 2 channel, a bigger box and lower tuning for these is doable, ~40-75 liters and mid thirties tuning.

I can't believe I just typed all that from my cell phone! Laptop is dead. Lol.
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