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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 176

post #5251 of 9844
"speaking with one voice" - if you want down to 500Hz or less, have you thought of doing a diy Unity build?
post #5252 of 9844
Quote:
So I'm leaning towards that ~4 degree range for a SEOS-24 as it would accommodate the above 3 drivers decently.

Very good choice. Waiting for BMS (4595ND).
post #5253 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

"speaking with one voice" - if you want down to 500Hz or less, have you thought of doing a diy Unity build?

That was going to be my other catch. The Synergy/Unity horn is probably the best approach to a large horn. Of course the downside is the difficulty in construction and design.
post #5254 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Of course the downside is the difficulty in construction and design.
Apparently they also need a lot of careful equing. Still a nice approach though. Alternatively one could get a Yorkville Unity and try and improve its performance. Although not as current as the new designs by Danley, it still shares many qualities with its Synergy brethren, and the price (especially when purchased used) is not bad. Of course, that would be the lazy approach to "DIY" wink.gif
post #5255 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

"speaking with one voice" - if you want down to 500Hz or less, have you thought of doing a diy Unity build?

I was thinking more along the lines of the driver itself having exactly the same sonic signature because.... it's the same driver..... it's not trying to marry two completely different types of drivers, different materials, likely from different manufacturers, plus a crossover in the same range to get a cohesive and exact sonic match.... plus getting it that low opens up options on the woofer choices since they don't have to go up as high.... nothings perfect because you just moved the driver marrying issue to a different frequency area.... you still do have to crossover to a woofer at some point... but I'd like to give it a whirl and see what it sounds like compared to the other options smile.gif
post #5256 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

SEOS 20, SEOS 24, SEOS 28, etc..... the 24" model seems to hit a nice size point where it's not tooooo unwieldy as far as width is concerned...


The SEOS-24 would probably be around 26" wide. That's big. I think the SEOS-22 would be an okay size, but that's just me.

My guess is that a 26" wide model would not sell very good in the US.
post #5257 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Apparently they also need a lot of careful equing. Still a nice approach though. Alternatively one could get a Yorkville Unity and try and improve its performance. Although not as current as the new designs by Danley, it still shares many qualities with its Synergy brethren, and the price (especially when purchased used) is not bad. Of course, that would be the lazy approach to "DIY" wink.gif

I'm not sure about needing careful eq'ing, but they do need an appropriately designed crossover just like any speaker. Of course, there is "eq" in the crossover.

Modifying a Yorkville Unity is an option. Danley made some improvements in his Synergy though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

I was thinking more along the lines of the driver itself having exactly the same sonic signature because.... it's the same driver..... it's not trying to marry two completely different types of drivers, different materials, likely from different manufacturers, plus a crossover in the same range to get a cohesive and exact sonic match.... plus getting it that low opens up options on the woofer choices since they don't have to go up as high.... nothings perfect because you just moved the driver marrying issue to a different frequency area.... you still do have to crossover to a woofer at some point... but I'd like to give it a whirl and see what it sounds like compared to the other options smile.gif

IMO, the benefit of a single driver covering a greater range is way overblown. Given a choice, I'd much prefer separating the duties. Of course, prior to the Synergy/Unity concept, that always introduced other compromises due to using separate point sources.

The real benefit to the large format drivers and large horns is getting directivity control a few octaves lower. You won't find a single compression driver that can compete with a Synergy horn though if you are covering below 500hz and all the way up to 15-20khz. With a synergy you get the advantage of a small CD covering the top and multiple mids covering the mids. The headroom is potentially higher and the separation of duties also has advantages.

Of course, I'm not knocking large format, big horn setups as it is currently what I use and love. I'm just saying that the only upgrade I can imagine is a Synergy horn (or some bizarre line array synergy which is another topic).
post #5258 of 9844
From my (limited) experience, the Synergy acts and sounds just like a single driver. I don't think anyone would have a chance of finding the crossover points or even knowing how many 'drivers' are feeding the horn from listening to it.

Of course, that's just opinion, you'd have to hear for yourself, trust me, or leave it an open case.
post #5259 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

Very good choice. Waiting for BMS (4595ND).

I forget about the BMS coax's but those are definitely excellent choices. I really need to get some 4595ND's to compare to my 2452H-SL's.
post #5260 of 9844
Maybe I (we) should ask Mr. Danley to throw us a bone and help with something neat. biggrin.gif
post #5261 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Maybe I (we) should ask Mr. Danley to throw us a bone and help with something neat. biggrin.gif


There is already a thread here urging them to do a SH50 DIY kit, they are interested .... just need the time.
post #5262 of 9844
Say Erich, what's happening with the XO boards; Bill has done a XO for TD12M + DNA350/360 on SEOS-12

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=74.0
post #5263 of 9844
I'm hoping to get some boards made up for a few specific designs. The issue is obviously the expense. Because there are so many models coming, I won't be able to buy boards for every single design. The last ones with shipping and layout fees were somewhere around $900 for 50 woofer boards and 50 tweeter boards. So doing a board for 15+ designs might just get a bit expensive. biggrin.gif

Now it's obvious I should have set up some type of site donation and used any extra money to put towards 'luxury' things like these boards. Those first boards were pretty big, but they were made for multiple speaker designs that Bwaslo will be explaining. Ordering larger quantities would of course lower the price per board.


I think we're getting close to that point where I either do the obvious and step things up a bit. You know what that means. Or sort of just help do what I can as things come in and slowly move along.

What worries me is also pretty obvious. If I do step things up and hire a part timer to help, then it would get looked at as a business. Even if it was low to no profit. The problem is that no one would know this stuff even existed except members here. And I'm not sure I would be allowed to talk about where the project was going without AVS getting aggravated. So I would be sitting on a lot of inventory without being able to talk about it and letting people know. That's an issue as you can imagine. I don't mind helping where I can right now, but there's no doubt things could move much faster with more options if I made that decision.

I did send an email to 2 people on AVS asking how much advertising would cost here. I never heard back. frown.gif I thought a few dollars added to the more expensive items could be used to pay advertising here on AVS. That would also help each designer because more people would see their project.

Honestly, I don't know which way to go. I'd like to do it, but I also like being able to post here to keep everyone updated on how the biggest DIY audio project is going. What do you think I should do?
post #5264 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

SEOS 20, SEOS 24, SEOS 28, etc..... the 24" model seems to hit a nice size point where it's not tooooo unwieldy as far as width is concerned...


The SEOS-24 would probably be around 26" wide. That's big. I think the SEOS-22 would be an okay size, but that's just me.

My guess is that a 26" wide model would not sell very good in the US.

Could a "synergy like" setup be made from a large SEOS?  IMO one reason more synergy like builds havent popped up is complex cut sheets and huge time investment custom cutting and shaping a waveguide that large.  Would be pretty nice to be able to bolt on some drivers to a large horn like that if it were that easy.

post #5265 of 9844
It saddens me that you don''t think I've thought about that. biggrin.gif
post #5266 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm hoping to get some boards made up for a few specific designs. The issue is obviously the expense. Because there are so many models coming, I won't be able to buy boards for every single design. The last ones with shipping and layout fees were somewhere around $900 for 50 woofer boards and 50 tweeter boards. So doing a board for 15+ designs might just get a bit expensive. biggrin.gif
Now it's obvious I should have set up some type of site donation and used any extra money to put towards 'luxury' things like these boards. Those first boards were pretty big, but they were made for multiple speaker designs that Bwaslo will be explaining. Ordering larger quantities would of course lower the price per board.
I think we're getting close to that point where I either do the obvious and step things up a bit. You know what that means. Or sort of just help do what I can as things come in and slowly move along.
What worries me is also pretty obvious. If I do step things up and hire a part timer to help, then it would get looked at as a business. Even if it was low to no profit. The problem is that no one would know this stuff even existed except members here. And I'm not sure I would be allowed to talk about where the project was going without AVS getting aggravated. So I would be sitting on a lot of inventory without being able to talk about it and letting people know. That's an issue as you can imagine. I don't mind helping where I can right now, but there's no doubt things could move much faster with more options if I made that decision.
I did send an email to 2 people on AVS asking how much advertising would cost here. I never heard back. frown.gif I thought a few dollars added to the more expensive items could be used to pay advertising here on AVS. That would also help each designer because more people would see their project.
Honestly, I don't know which way to go. I'd like to do it, but I also like being able to post here to keep everyone updated on how the biggest DIY audio project is going. What do you think I should do?

The guy I directed you to should have helped you. Any way here is where you go to get info for advertising on AVS: http://www.avsforum.com/advertise



Thank you,

Mike
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 9/28/12 at 7:24am
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post #5267 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm hoping to get some boards made up for a few specific designs. The issue is obviously the expense. Because there are so many models coming, I won't be able to buy boards for every single design. The last ones with shipping and layout fees were somewhere around $900 for 50 woofer boards and 50 tweeter boards. So doing a board for 15+ designs might just get a bit expensive. biggrin.gif
Now it's obvious I should have set up some type of site donation and used any extra money to put towards 'luxury' things like these boards. Those first boards were pretty big, but they were made for multiple speaker designs that Bwaslo will be explaining. Ordering larger quantities would of course lower the price per board.
I think we're getting close to that point where I either do the obvious and step things up a bit. You know what that means. Or sort of just help do what I can as things come in and slowly move along.
What worries me is also pretty obvious. If I do step things up and hire a part timer to help, then it would get looked at as a business. Even if it was low to no profit. The problem is that no one would know this stuff even existed except members here. And I'm not sure I would be allowed to talk about where the project was going without AVS getting aggravated. So I would be sitting on a lot of inventory without being able to talk about it and letting people know. That's an issue as you can imagine. I don't mind helping where I can right now, but there's no doubt things could move much faster with more options if I made that decision.
I did send an email to 2 people on AVS asking how much advertising would cost here. I never heard back. frown.gif I thought a few dollars added to the more expensive items could be used to pay advertising here on AVS. That would also help each designer because more people would see their project.
Honestly, I don't know which way to go. I'd like to do it, but I also like being able to post here to keep everyone updated on how the biggest DIY audio project is going. What do you think I should do?

If it were me, I would stick to the seos 12 & 15 as your primary designs. If people want to go with something other than those, I would charge more. I think you should take the leap of faith. If you can focus on the best/most popular designs, you have a chance at being successful.
post #5268 of 9844
Doing a synergy from a SEOS doesn't make sense unless you get above an 18". There are already drivers (DNA360, DE250, BA) that drive the 18" for all it can do. If you use a bigger SEOS, then it should be one that supports a 1" driver so it can give good coverage up to highest frequencies... but everyone wants to go with a 1.4" or 2" driver for big SEOS if they ever get made. (I personally don't see the point in using a big CD tweeter driver unless used with an additional separate tweeter -- otherwise when the speaker gets toed-in, the trebled beaming and loss of high end would be deadly).

Though putting some woofers in the walls of a smaller SEOS might make sense in terms of getting the drivers closer together to act more like a point source (very close CTC)... but the horn does nothing then for the woofers, really. And the holes in the horn walls aren't generally a good thing for the tweeter and should, if possible, be squished into the corners of a horn where the pressure will be a little lower... the SEOS construction and shape don't lend themselves well to that.

Really, making a wood conical horn isn't all that terribly hard if you have a table saw. And it is actually a lot of fun once you figure what you are doing (messing up a few pieces of wood in the process, no big deal), and gives a lot more satisfaction than just tossing some drivers and molded horns into a box. Sounds better than about anything, too (except maybe higher end SEOS designs). If you use my ready-to-go design with the buyout drivers (which are NOT junk drivers by any means), it also is rather disgustingly cheap to do. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=19.0
I wish I could say we could offer a kit, but that is apparently not to be (I've asked so many times it's gotten embarrassing, but can't get permission or licensing from Danley Sound Labs!).
post #5269 of 9844
[quote name="Erich H" url="/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here/5250_50#post_22442061" What do you think I should do?[/quote]

Maybe you could talk to AVS creating a forum like the Vendor Forum at diyaudio.
Edited by noah katz - 9/28/12 at 3:54pm
post #5270 of 9844
When should we see the "high end" designs starting to show up and be available?
post #5271 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

When should we see the "high end" designs starting to show up and be available?

Probably when AE starts to deliver the TD15M (and the phase plugs....) from the group buy.


Which probably mean like 2034 or something...
post #5272 of 9844
High end might mean different things to different people. If your talking about more expensive woofers, then I would guess about 1 month or so.

Jeff Bagby's first design will be using a mid priced 12" woofer. That one should be done in less than a month if all goes well. It took him a while to pick the best woofer in the price range he was shooting for and did actually test multiple woofers to find the better performing model.


Depending on what you're after, many of these will be 'high end' if you're going by sound quality. Some might not think they are high end without a $400 woofer though. Bwaslo has helped get some really nice stuff going.

The first models will mostly be revolving around the Eminence woofers simply because they are priced very well and many of them truly do perform better than their price would have you believe. But there will be a model using JBL, Faital Pro, and B&C. But honestly, the nicer Eminence woofers will still give them a run for their money.

I'm also asked Pete Schumacher about the design he helped Zilch with that used the QSC waveguide. The woofer is the Kappalite, which is pretty darn expensive but gets really good reviews. This was one of Zilch's favorite speakers. The crossover turned out to be inexpensive, but the woofer is up there in price. If those 2 guys worked on the crossover and thought they were great.....they are. biggrin.gif


Right now I'm trying to figure out how to keep a small number of all these designs in stock at the same time. It's not going to work out very well if I have to purchase woofers and crossover parts from the same company like Parts Express. They're a great company and that's what I've been doing, but when they are out of stock on something, we'd have a problem waiting a month or more to get things in. No one wants to do that. Right now they are out of 3 woofers that could be used. And some crossover parts.

But figure just one speaker using $250 worth of parts. Keeping at least 10 in stock would be minimal. $2500. Now figure 10-15 waveguide designs. $25k - $35k. eek.gif Some of those will of course be more or less expensive. Then add in the flat packs. You can see the dilemma. I do have some ideas though. I'm confident it will all work out for the best.

And many of the new guys checking this thread probably don't know that I'm just doing this stuff in my spare time. I had one guy 2 weeks ago send me an angry email from the site saying he's never seen a company try to operate with hardly anything in stock. He was actually quite aggravated. I had to explain what was going on. rolleyes.gif He did apologize though.
Edited by Erich H - 9/29/12 at 12:21pm
post #5273 of 9844
SEOS-22, 1.5inch, 4deg edrawing file for evaluation.

SEOS-22-1_5-4deg.zip 2349k .zip file
post #5274 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

SEOS-22, 1.5inch, 4deg edrawing file for evaluation.
SEOS-22-1_5-4deg.zip 2349k .zip file

I'm looking at that...

and I can't help but wonder to myself "Do people using 1.4" / 2" compression drivers even bother with box-mounting?

I wonder if they would be more interested in a stand-alone SEOS-22 that transitions to Le Cleac'h geometry on the mouth. That was something you posted earlier in this thread. Something that just sits atop the woofer box rather than as a part of it.

*shrug*
post #5275 of 9844
If a crossover can be designed using the Faital Pro 12PR300 I can supply one to whoever works on the design immediately. I have 3 on hand in my Ewave style speakers that I have actively crossed with the DNA360 on a QSC horn. This woofer was tested and found to be the next best thing to the TD12M in the drivers tested. It has low distortion without the rising response of the Kappalite which can make XO work easier. It is also about $80 cheaper than the Kappalite 3012HO which helps dramatically.

https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se
post #5276 of 9844
Anyone else considering using the soon to be released Hypex DLCP DSP XO ?
post #5277 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Anyone else considering using the soon to be released Hypex DLCP DSP XO ?
What does it offer over a DCX in terms of performance? It's still only IIR filtering.
post #5278 of 9844
The parts kit for the cheaper 10" model is coming in around $160 (no box or baffle). cool.gifbiggrin.gif If you already have the SEOS, it's $28 cheaper. For the sound quality on this, that's a crazy price. It uses all name brand parts with an Eminence 10" woofer. And high sensitivity for any decent receiver to power as well.

They would make great surrounds for guys running the larger speakers up front. But honestly, I've been listening to these as mains in my living room for about 2 weeks now and I can't see many things keeping up in that price range. No doubt these can handle the duty of left/right/center speakers as well and surrounds.

I'm extremely happy that the cheaper model sounds this good.

3% Paypal fees will have to be figured in and a shipping box. It probably makes sense to make up 2 kits for these. One with the parts and a just a baffle. And one with everything, including the box. That might be the best way to do all the kits in the future.

I'm hoping to get Bwaslo to design a crossover board so I can get those made up for this particular model.

Here's a photo of the speaker:

beta10b.jpg
post #5279 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

This woofer was tested and found to be the next best thing to the TD12M in the drivers tested. https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se

I' wonder how the JBL 2206H would do.

AFAIK there aren't any apples-to-apples measurements of it compared to the TD12M.
post #5280 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

If a crossover can be designed using the Faital Pro 12PR300 I can supply one to whoever works on the design immediately. I have 3 on hand in my Ewave style speakers that I have actively crossed with the DNA360 on a QSC horn. This woofer was tested and found to be the next best thing to the TD12M in the drivers tested. It has low distortion without the rising response of the Kappalite which can make XO work easier. It is also about $80 cheaper than the Kappalite 3012HO which helps dramatically.
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se

I was actually going to order that Faital Pro model to be shipped to someone next week. It would certainly save some money to ship one of yours though.
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